Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

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rayiner
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby rayiner » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:08 pm

D-ROCCA wrote:Is there a scenario in which it would be beneficial for someone straight out of UG to forgo acceptance at a T14 school in order to gain work experience for a few years in the hopes of increasing job prospects at OCI? I'm in undergrad and have below-average softs, and am fearful that I might be the type of candidate that may strike out at OCI because I have little useful work experience to attract future Biglaw employers.

At the same time, it would suck to be admitted to a top school, decide not to go, and then not have the opportunity to attend said top school in the future. I currently have numbers to be competitive at T6 schools.

TL;DR version-should I pass on HYSCCNMVP to get work experience to improve my chances at OCI?

EDIT: for clarity/accuracy.


If you get HYS, then it's a no-brainer to go.
If you get CCN, it's still a pretty good idea.
If you get MVP, then I'd think about taking that year off.

If you have a CCN acceptance, see if you can defer for WE. As the economy improves, it is unlikely that the admissions cycle is going to get tougher.

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IAFG
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby IAFG » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:14 pm

i personally think getting WE is a good idea to make yourself a more balanced person. if you end up deciding not to go to law school, awesome, you found a way to start your career not a couple hundred grand in debt. if you don't, you will appreciate school more. win-win.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:38 pm

rayiner wrote:If you get HYS, then it's a no-brainer to go.

I'm going to continue my strong disagreement here. After reading some other comments I realized a better way of clarifying why:

Harvard in particular is in flux right now. The grading system was simplified so much that it doesn't help firms much anymore. The very top students have all H's and the very bottom have all P's or LP's, but between those you've got a mass of hundreds of students with a mix of some H's and some P's making up a giant middle. Some firms are really looking for other ways to be choosy since grades are less helpful than they used to be, and WE is definitely one way some firms are doing so now. There are 500+ students here, and the top firms aren't taking them all, especially since recruiting top students at other schools is easier too ITE.

And given the way things are changing, if you end up not getting into HYS after your time off, I suspect that it's even worth risking not getting in again if you did and withdraw. I do believe that WE contributes to better grades, and ITE I think (H/S + no WE + mediocre grades) is weaker than (CCN + 2-5 years WE + strong grades).

At least, in the short term I assume this to be true; you're likely IMO to end up with a better first job and early references that way. Long-term the prestige of H/S might still make it worth it in the long run. That, I think, is where the real question lies, and I'll admit that could go the other way.

Not sure about Yale. That's a miracle if you get in, so go, probably. But H/S? You could very likely repeat an acceptance if you got in the first time, and even if not, may still end up in a better position anyway.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:56 pm

Strong work ethic can't be taught. At least, not by law school.

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bk1
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby bk1 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:58 pm

vanwinkle wrote:Not sure about Yale. That's a miracle if you get in, so go, probably. But H/S? You could very likely repeat an acceptance if you got in the first time, and even if not, may still end up in a better position anyway.


I agree with this as a reason why it would be worthwhile to wait if one so desired, unless you get in with borderline numbers.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:00 pm

ResolutePear wrote:Strong work ethic can't be taught. At least, not by law school.

Or if you do, it's through the process of your shitty 1L fall grades teaching you that your work ethic needs improvement. Even if you can learn it in law school, by then it's too late.

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teaadntoast
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby teaadntoast » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:07 pm

turkfish wrote:law firms don't really care about work experience, unless it's in a highly relevant field (e.g. engineering for patent, i-banking or legitimate business work for corporate). WE might help with getting into a better law school, but firm hiring is almost entirely based on grades and the interview, which is mostly dependent on personality. unless the WE is in a highly relevant field, will help you get better grades in LS (unlikely), or will improve your personality/maturity (possible, but uncertain), then it is unlikely to seriously affect your chances with law firms.


Um, no.

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mrmangs
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby mrmangs » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:07 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Strong work ethic can't be taught. At least, not by law school.

Or if you do, it's through the process of your shitty 1L fall grades teaching you that your work ethic needs improvement. Even if you can learn it in law school, by then it's too late.


+1

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JazzOne
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby JazzOne » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:11 pm

ResolutePear wrote:Strong work ethic can't be taught. At least, not by law school.

No, but it can be faked. See me.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:11 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Strong work ethic can't be taught. At least, not by law school.

Or if you do, it's through the process of your shitty 1L fall grades teaching you that your work ethic needs improvement. Even if you can learn it in law school, by then it's too late.


It's chronic in a lot of industries/disciplines with the younger crowd.

I've seen 23 year old MBA's bring DS's or PSPs into the office casually.. miss meetings, etc. It's like they never left school!

Sure, this is not a usual situation... but it is a statistic that, if I suspect correctly, law firms watch with a vigil eye.

I say, get some work experience - preferably managerial experience AND KEEP A TRACK RECORD. Holy shit it pisses me off when people tell me their work experience, but can't tell me about any milestones crossed along the way during an interview. It's more indicative than school in my opinion: A sales manager whose department, store, company, etc. is constantly in the black throughout the year and is constantly improving is golden ITE - for any field.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:12 pm

JazzOne wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Strong work ethic can't be taught. At least, not by law school.

No, but it can be faked. See me.


hah.

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bk1
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby bk1 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:15 pm

ResolutePear wrote:I've seen 23 year old MBA's bring DS's or PSPs into the office casually..


To be fair it's not like a smartphone is any different from one those these days. Not that the old guard sees it that way.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:21 pm

bk1 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:I've seen 23 year old MBA's bring DS's or PSPs into the office casually..


To be fair it's not like a smartphone is any different from one those these days. Not that the old guard sees it that way.


I have a speech I used to use when scolding people:

When you can convince your supervisors/bosses and co-workers that everything you touch turns into gold, you win the game of 'Work' and can do whatever the fuck you want. Until then, boy scout it out for the love of my bonus and your job.

EDIT: I would get a bonus at the end of the year if I didn't have to fire anybody. Not that I actually cared about how people carried themselves.

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kelc213
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby kelc213 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:31 pm

Sentry wrote:Your numbers will always be there. I'd recommend taking some time off not just for better softs but to gain some new experiences.


Not sure if this matters, but say currently out of undergrad, he/she gets accepted. Does work experience help him/her get accepted, but with money?

I'd look to see whether having work experience enables you to not pay sticker price at some schools that may give you some money if you take a few years off and work.

I agree with the above, your numbers are your numbers. You keep your LSAT score for 5 years, so as long as you're not waiting that long...

Also, working for a few years and trying to save some money not only allows you to build a pre-law school resume, but you can save some money (which may or may not be a concern, but I think for most of us, a cushion is nice)...

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aesis
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby aesis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:31 pm

At the risk of sounding ignorant --

What kind of WE are we talking about here? Are we talking salaries or anything that is full-time, daily grind kind of work? Or is it an emphasis on managerial / supervisor type positions? Or Americorps?

ATR
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby ATR » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:38 pm

ResolutePear wrote:I say, get some work experience - preferably managerial experience AND KEEP A TRACK RECORD. Holy shit it pisses me off when people tell me their work experience, but can't tell me about any milestones crossed along the way during an interview. It's more indicative than school in my opinion: A sales manager whose department, store, company, etc. is constantly in the black throughout the year and is constantly improving is golden ITE - for any field.

Very good point, and this is something I'm somewhat concerned about applying straight from UG. I'll have worked 18 months with the same organization before LS, but it's not in a managerial position. However, I will have multiple co-authors on academic papers, plus I've been promoted to enhanced responsibilities. In addition, my boss wrote me a glowing LOR. Will this help me combat my death of post-grad WE when OCI comes along, or should I expect to be in the same boat as every other straight-from-UG student?

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JCougar
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby JCougar » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:48 pm

im_blue wrote:I would not pass up an HYS acceptance, since OCI chances are significantly better than at CCN. If your only options are CCN, then you might have a decision to make.


Plus HYS is more arbitrary, in that the same numbers may or may not get you in in a few years. Almost no one at those places is auto-admit based on numbers alone.

Although, if you do get accepted, but decide to get work experience and apply again 3 years down the road, they'd more likely see that as a positive more than a negative.

Voodoo94
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby Voodoo94 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:51 pm

Not sure if this matters, but say currently out of undergrad, he/she gets accepted. Does work experience help him/her get accepted, but with money?

I'd look to see whether having work experience enables you to not pay sticker price at some schools that may give you some money if you take a few years off and work.


Consider spending a few years as an Army officer. The commitment via OCS is 3 years after commissioning - about 3 years and 23 weeks total. You can apply up to 365 days before you graduate from undergrad.

You can develop leadership experience and tangible skills in one of 16 branches - everything from Military Police - to Engineers - to Infantry - to Signal Corps - to Logistics - to Intelligence.

After completing your service as an officer you are eligible for the great, new GI Bill. That's solid money in your pocket for tuition and stipend.

http://www.armyocs.com

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JCougar
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby JCougar » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:55 pm

IAFG wrote:i personally think getting WE is a good idea to make yourself a more balanced person. if you end up deciding not to go to law school, awesome, you found a way to start your career not a couple hundred grand in debt. if you don't, you will appreciate school more. win-win.


I agree with this.

Believe it or not, it will make you more professional and responsible. It's a good way to grow as a person, and, from what I've read, it's well-rounded, responsible people that end up sticking around to make partner after they're hired. Think about beyond just law school, and OCI. With work experience, you'll be able to start out at your firm knowing how to make a great first impression, knowing the language of the profession, knowing how to behave, knowing how to manage projects, etc. People will really like that.

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mrmangs
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby mrmangs » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:00 pm

Voodoo94 wrote:
Not sure if this matters, but say currently out of undergrad, he/she gets accepted. Does work experience help him/her get accepted, but with money?

I'd look to see whether having work experience enables you to not pay sticker price at some schools that may give you some money if you take a few years off and work.


Consider spending a few years as an Army officer. The commitment via OCS is 3 years after commissioning - about 3 years and 23 weeks total. You can apply up to 365 days before you graduate from undergrad.

You can develop leadership experience and tangible skills in one of 16 branches - everything from Military Police - to Engineers - to Infantry - to Signal Corps - to Logistics - to Intelligence.

After completing your service as an officer you are eligible for the great, new GI Bill. That's solid money in your pocket for tuition and stipend.

http://www.armyocs.com


Unless you are dead set on becoming a lawyer for reasons other than money, you should go to B school after this sort of work.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:09 pm

aesis wrote:At the risk of sounding ignorant --

What kind of WE are we talking about here? Are we talking salaries or anything that is full-time, daily grind kind of work? Or is it an emphasis on managerial / supervisor type positions? Or Americorps?

Any full-time employment post-UG will help to some degree. Mine was particularly impressive because it was supervisory (showing I could handle being both above and below other levels of employees) and because it was safety-sensitive (if you can operate machinery/equipment that could kill people, you're probably going to be responsible when handling large client transactions).

It was blue-collar work. I came from a blue-collar family and knew I could make more money there after UG than temping or PT with my bullshit BS degree. I also knew that supervisors there had a degree requirement that was often waived because nobody had both the degree and work experience to move up. I put in the time until I was eligible and then jumped the line for promotions by actually having a degree, even though my major had nothing to do with the job.

Of course, I did all that not yet knowing I was going to law school. But it ended up being a good job with a living wage and benefits that taught me a lot practically in terms of skills and perspectives that actually translated well to law firm and PI org interviews. If I knew in advance I had a planned exit strategy and good odds to make a top law school when I'd had enough, I think I would've enjoyed it even more.

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IAFG
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby IAFG » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:32 pm

vanwinkle wrote: Mine was particularly impressive.

are you a parody of yourself or did you leave your laptop unguarded around booya

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yzero1
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby yzero1 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:44 pm

In terms of getting work experience after acceptance to law school - how long will schools typically allow you to defer for? Would working for 1-2 years during your deferral period be enough to give you an edge at OCI?

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The Stig
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby The Stig » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:45 pm

This is a really interesting discussion...

Just out of curiosity, how do you think any changes in the legal market in the next few years might play into this? Is it possible that it would recover to a point where D-Rocca would be at OCI in 2015ish and they would be hiring like they did before the crash?

Obviously the WE would still be a bonus for employment prospects, and it would be generally a good "life" experience, but is it worth passing up a T14? Could he get to OCI, and be seeing everyone getting offers (regardless of WE)?

More importantly for applicants of this cycle...how much might the market recover by the time the '14 class gets to OCI?

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rayiner
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby rayiner » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:50 pm

The Stig wrote:This is a really interesting discussion...

Just out of curiosity, how do you think any changes in the legal market in the next few years might play into this? Is it possible that it would recover to a point where D-Rocca would be at OCI in 2015ish and they would be hiring like they did before the crash?

Obviously the WE would still be a bonus for employment prospects, and it would be generally a good "life" experience, but is it worth passing up a T14? Could he get to OCI, and be seeing everyone getting offers (regardless of WE)?

More importantly for applicants of this cycle...how much might the market recover by the time the '14 class gets to OCI?


Class of '14 will do OCI in two years. The market will likely have recovered substantially, but it won't be boom times again.

The underlying issue is... why do you think WE = giving up a T14 acceptance? Application volumes have spiked in the recession, but it's unlikely to continue to get worse. After the 2000 recession application volumes spiked but then dropped back down.




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