Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

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Tommy Boy
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Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby Tommy Boy » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:47 pm

I know how hard it is to finish in the top 1-2% so that's why I'm saying it's only a hypothetical, but if you do finish that high at a T2 school can you get a BIGLAW job in any market you want ?

bigkahuna2020
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby bigkahuna2020 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:48 pm

Honestly, at the T2 school in my area, if you graduate at the top of your class, you have your pick of biglaw jobs but mostly only in the region the school is in

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:48 pm

No.

Hypothetically, only in the markets you have connections to and New York.

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cortnf
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby cortnf » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:49 pm

Tommy Boy wrote:I know how hard it is to finish in the top 1-2% so that's why I'm saying it's only a hypothetical, but if you do finish that high at a T2 school can you get a BIGLAW job in any market you want ?


stupid hypothetical. and ITE i wouldn't be surprised if even top students at T2 get shitlaw

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KMaine
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby KMaine » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:53 pm

Tommy Boy wrote:I know how hard it is to finish in the top 1-2% so that's why I'm saying it's only a hypothetical, but if you do finish that high at a T2 school can you get a BIGLAW job in any market you want ?


Wow, dude! Why the hostility? From reading employement threads over the past month, it seems like a person in that position would have a good shot at Biglaw in his/her region and NYC. Yeah, I think Seattle/Chicago/D.C. etc. would be tough without connection. Transfer to Columbia/Harvard/G-Town also a possibility.

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ahduth
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby ahduth » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:10 pm

KMaine wrote:
Tommy Boy wrote:I know how hard it is to finish in the top 1-2% so that's why I'm saying it's only a hypothetical, but if you do finish that high at a T2 school can you get a BIGLAW job in any market you want ?


Wow, dude! Why the hostility? From reading employement threads over the past month, it seems like a person in that position would have a good shot at Biglaw in his/her region and NYC. Yeah, I think Seattle/Chicago/D.C. etc. would be tough without connection. Transfer to Columbia/Harvard/G-Town also a possibility.


I'm having trouble identifying the hostility in their post.

But a couple of people I know on hiring committees have told me that if you're 5%+LR at a second tier school, you'll definitely get a strong look from their firm. It probably depends somewhat on the brand name recognition - for example one person was telling me Iowa always gets a strong look, but that's because they used to be ranked more highly, so... it seems to get more variable the further down the rankings you go.

There's also this "ITE" viewpoint on TLS that views your application decision through the lens of hiring in the current market. You'll be graduating in 2014, so you need to sort out what you think the hiring market will look like then, and how much debt you want. I'm realizing now that I need to be applying much more widely to look for money.

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Veyron
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby Veyron » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:18 pm

ahduth wrote:
KMaine wrote:
Tommy Boy wrote:I know how hard it is to finish in the top 1-2% so that's why I'm saying it's only a hypothetical, but if you do finish that high at a T2 school can you get a BIGLAW job in any market you want ?


Wow, dude! Why the hostility? From reading employement threads over the past month, it seems like a person in that position would have a good shot at Biglaw in his/her region and NYC. Yeah, I think Seattle/Chicago/D.C. etc. would be tough without connection. Transfer to Columbia/Harvard/G-Town also a possibility.


I'm having trouble identifying the hostility in their post.

But a couple of people I know on hiring committees have told me that if you're 5%+LR at a second tier school, you'll definitely get a strong look from their firm. It probably depends somewhat on the brand name recognition - for example one person was telling me Iowa always gets a strong look, but that's because they used to be ranked more highly, so... it seems to get more variable the further down the rankings you go.

There's also this "ITE" viewpoint on TLS that views your application decision through the lens of hiring in the current market. You'll be graduating in 2014, so you need to sort out what you think the hiring market will look like then, and how much debt you want. I'm realizing now that I need to be applying much more widely to look for money.


You do know that hiring takes place 2 years before graduation, right?

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ahduth
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby ahduth » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:41 pm

Sorry, I agree that was entirely unclear. Basically if you're applying now, listening to TLS people who had shit luck in OCI last year may not be indicative of what your experience will be. Especially since you won't be relying on OCI anyways if you're going to a T2 school and hit 5%+LR.

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Veyron
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby Veyron » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:08 pm

ahduth wrote:Sorry, I agree that was entirely unclear. Basically if you're applying now, listening to TLS people who had shit luck in OCI last year may not be indicative of what your experience will be. Especially since you won't be relying on OCI anyways if you're going to a T2 school and hit 5%+LR.


I hope you are right but I wouldn't count on it.

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ahduth
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby ahduth » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:45 pm

Veyron wrote:
ahduth wrote:Sorry, I agree that was entirely unclear. Basically if you're applying now, listening to TLS people who had shit luck in OCI last year may not be indicative of what your experience will be. Especially since you won't be relying on OCI anyways if you're going to a T2 school and hit 5%+LR.


I hope you are right but I wouldn't count on it.


Yeah... I don't have any responses from schools of course, so it's a little early for me to worry about it. But I'm personally pretty wary of taking money at a lower tier school and turning down an acceptance at T6 (if I got one god forbid).

I talked about this at length with a friend of mine who is on the hiring committee at a big NYC firm, and she was very firm about me considering non-T14 schools. Her point of view boiled down to something she quoted a partner as having said: "If we could only talk to one, we'd rather talk to a 10%+LR from Fordham than a median at Harvard, because we know the Fordham guy can and will bust his ass." She said they will always look at the Harvard guy, but people from lower tier schools who are obviously strong are.... obviously strong, and the school isn't going to eliminate them from contention. And I know Fordham's special. But she's saying that they consistently look at exceptional resumes from a broad swathe of schools. And that's today.

Admittedly she's convinced I'm going to beat the crap out of everyone else in school, which... I'll buy it when I see it lol. But overall, the hypothetical question of finishing in the top bracket at a T2 school... if you're sure you can do that somehow, it doesn't seem like it's necessarily some sort of disastrous decision.

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rayiner
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby rayiner » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:52 pm

You're forgetting one simple thing: firms from a diverse range of markets don't do OCI at T2s. It's really difficult to get a job at a big firm from outside of OCI, even at top schools.

Firms simply structure their hiring in a way that doesn't leave room for candidates from outside OCI, even those from good schools with top grades. I got a response to one of my mailings to a top DC firm which notified me that they'd look at my "write in" application in late September after their OCI season ended. You think there are SA slots left to fill from "write in" applications?

For numeric data. Let's look at the NALP firms who do OCI at Temple (a solid T2 in a major city). 22 firms, of which maybe 9-10 are outside PA, and only 4 are outside the Northeast.

Temple has 320 students in its 1L class, which means about 16 people in the top 5%. So any OCI job is far from a sure thing even for top 5% people, much less a job in any market you want.

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ahduth
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby ahduth » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:17 pm

rayiner wrote:You're forgetting one simple thing: firms from a diverse range of markets don't do OCI at T2s. It's really difficult to get a job at a big firm from outside of OCI, even at top schools.

Firms simply structure their hiring in a way that doesn't leave room for candidates from outside OCI, even those from good schools with top grades. I got a response to one of my mailings to a top DC firm which notified me that they'd look at my "write in" application in late September after their OCI season ended. You think there are SA slots left to fill from "write in" applications?

For numeric data. Let's look at the NALP firms who do OCI at Temple (a solid T2 in a major city). 22 firms, of which maybe 9-10 are outside PA, and only 4 are outside the Northeast.

Temple has 320 students in its 1L class, which means about 16 people in the top 5%. So any OCI job is far from a sure thing even for top 5% people, much less a job in any market you want.


I hear you. One thing is that she's not talking about OCI - this firm only OCIs at 10 of the T14 plus Fordham (iirc). She's saying they look at all these non-OCI resumes, and that you shouldn't take on the debt "if you don't have to." I'm just thinking it sounds a little bit like gambling. I may or may not make top 5%, and then firms may or may not have spots, depending on how the market is shaping up. Versus however much debt at a top shelf school, where you have a much better shot of at least getting an interview.

I guess I need to take some of these types of numbers back to her and tell to give it to me again. I don't question that it's easier to hit top 5% at a place like Temple than it is at Columbia, but a lot more than the top 5% of Columbia gets an interview.

And then there's the fact that she's been a friend of mine for a long time, so, who knows, she's maybe not entirely objective maybe.

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bk1
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby bk1 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:35 pm

Dumb hypothetical is dumb.

What happens if I win the lottery? Should I take the payments or the lump sum?

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rayiner
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby rayiner » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:43 pm

ahduth wrote:
rayiner wrote:You're forgetting one simple thing: firms from a diverse range of markets don't do OCI at T2s. It's really difficult to get a job at a big firm from outside of OCI, even at top schools.

Firms simply structure their hiring in a way that doesn't leave room for candidates from outside OCI, even those from good schools with top grades. I got a response to one of my mailings to a top DC firm which notified me that they'd look at my "write in" application in late September after their OCI season ended. You think there are SA slots left to fill from "write in" applications?

For numeric data. Let's look at the NALP firms who do OCI at Temple (a solid T2 in a major city). 22 firms, of which maybe 9-10 are outside PA, and only 4 are outside the Northeast.

Temple has 320 students in its 1L class, which means about 16 people in the top 5%. So any OCI job is far from a sure thing even for top 5% people, much less a job in any market you want.


I hear you. One thing is that she's not talking about OCI - this firm only OCIs at 10 of the T14 plus Fordham (iirc). She's saying they look at all these non-OCI resumes, and that you shouldn't take on the debt "if you don't have to." I'm just thinking it sounds a little bit like gambling. I may or may not make top 5%, and then firms may or may not have spots, depending on how the market is shaping up. Versus however much debt at a top shelf school, where you have a much better shot of at least getting an interview.

I guess I need to take some of these types of numbers back to her and tell to give it to me again. I don't question that it's easier to hit top 5% at a place like Temple than it is at Columbia, but a lot more than the top 5% of Columbia gets an interview.

And then there's the fact that she's been a friend of mine for a long time, so, who knows, she's maybe not entirely objective maybe.


I'd much rather be top 30% at NU than top 5% at Temple. There is just no way to compare going through 15-25 screening interviews (I had 23, bidding in NY and DC) in whatever market you want versus interviewing with a few places that do OCI and knowing you don't have room to make mistakes on any of them.

Yes, firms might look at applications from outside OCI, but let's be realistic. Look through the OCI results thread --- even people with stellar grades at top schools got almost no response from mailings. There are 1,000+ people in the top 5% at T20-100. All those people are last in line for firms that they don't do OCI with. Do you think the odds are even remotely decent?

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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby pocket herc » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:51 pm

I can't speak to Temple specifically, but I'm at a barely T1, and people in the top 10% are, by and large, doing fine. I think the point about OCI is absolutely on point however. T-14 students absolutely have a tremendous advantage, but it's not so bad farther down that even the top students are in dire straits.

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4for44
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby 4for44 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:52 pm

KMaine wrote:
Tommy Boy wrote:I know how hard it is to finish in the top 1-2% so that's why I'm saying it's only a hypothetical, but if you do finish that high at a T2 school can you get a BIGLAW job in any market you want ?


Wow, dude! Why the hostility? From reading employement threads over the past month, it seems like a person in that position would have a good shot at Biglaw in his/her region and NYC. Yeah, I think Seattle/Chicago/D.C. etc. would be tough without connection. Transfer to Columbia/Harvard/G-Town also a possibility.


Massive GTTTown Trolling

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2014
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby 2014 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:29 pm

bk1 wrote:Dumb hypothetical is dumb.

What happens if I win the lottery? Should I take the payments or the lump sum?

ITE probably payments.

jas5076
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby jas5076 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:40 pm

bk1 wrote:Dumb hypothetical is dumb.

What happens if I win the lottery? Should I take the payments or the lump sum?


Lump Sum, LAMBO, Profit

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Gatriel
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby Gatriel » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:40 pm

cortnf wrote:
Tommy Boy wrote:I know how hard it is to finish in the top 1-2% so that's why I'm saying it's only a hypothetical, but if you do finish that high at a T2 school can you get a BIGLAW job in any market you want ?


stupid hypothetical. and ITE i wouldn't be surprised if even top students at T2 get shitlaw


lol

Lemme guess. . . . unless you go to T14 and top 10 you're going to be pushing burgers at McDonalds. . . . .

Listen man, if you graduate top of your class from a T2 school (that is 52-100) then I don't see a problem going BigLaw.

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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby 09042014 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:46 pm

Gatriel wrote:
cortnf wrote:
Tommy Boy wrote:I know how hard it is to finish in the top 1-2% so that's why I'm saying it's only a hypothetical, but if you do finish that high at a T2 school can you get a BIGLAW job in any market you want ?


stupid hypothetical. and ITE i wouldn't be surprised if even top students at T2 get shitlaw


lol

Lemme guess. . . . unless you go to T14 and top 10 you're going to be pushing burgers at McDonalds. . . . .

Listen man, if you graduate top of your class from a T2 school (that is 52-100) then I don't see a problem going BigLaw.


There is a poster on this site who is top 10% in a school ranked in the 60's who struck out at OCI.

Shit is bad out there.

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fugitivejammer
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby fugitivejammer » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:02 pm

there r apparently ppl from CCN top 1/3 who struck out. so what? yea it must suck out there, but hearing about a few people like THAT ^^^^^^^^^ striking out is more the exception to the rule than anything else. top 10% at t2 would for the most part b ok (with expcetions ofc), and to answer the OP's question: if u finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 then sweet jesus, you'll b able to find a biglaw job. u can xfer to t-14 if u wanted to and get into biglaw that way.

so tommy boy, i think u have a solid, fool-proof plan. get ur full tuition ride to T2 and just get top 1-2% and all will b well.

whymeohgodno
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby whymeohgodno » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:04 pm

fugitivejammer wrote:there r apparently ppl from CCN top 1/3 who struck out! yea it must suck out there, but hearing about a few people like THAT striking out is more the exception to the rule than anything else. top 10% at t2 would for the most part b ok (with expcetions ofc), and to answer the OP's question: if u finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 then sweet jesus, you'll b able to find a biglaw job. u can xfer to t-14 if u wanted to and get into biglaw that way.

so tommy boy, i think u have a solid, fool-proof plan. get ur full tuition ride to T2 and just get top 1-2% and all will b well.


If you go to law school on this kind of advice, expect to be solely disappointed.

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ahduth
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby ahduth » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:44 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
fugitivejammer wrote:there r apparently ppl from CCN top 1/3 who struck out! yea it must suck out there, but hearing about a few people like THAT striking out is more the exception to the rule than anything else. top 10% at t2 would for the most part b ok (with expcetions ofc), and to answer the OP's question: if u finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 then sweet jesus, you'll b able to find a biglaw job. u can xfer to t-14 if u wanted to and get into biglaw that way.

so tommy boy, i think u have a solid, fool-proof plan. get ur full tuition ride to T2 and just get top 1-2% and all will b well.


If you go to law school on this kind of advice, expect to be solely disappointed.


He won't be the only one disappointed. But, sure, there are going to be people from the top third of CCN who strike out. Why? Because they're misanthropic assholes who can't communicate or handle themselves in public. This same friend of mine also said her report when she comes back from OCI is regularly, "there were maybe five of them I could stand to be in the same room with for a half an hour."

The transfer comment isn't to the OP's query, but it's reasonable to bring up - if you're kicking ass in a T2 and think you'd be better off paying for T14, you could very possibly transfer.

The open question is whether or not the market will be as bad for 2014 as it was for the last OCI class. The same people who today are saying, "if you don't go T6 you're going to be doc review/unemployed," may be saying, "I am trapped in a debt prison of my own making" come 2015.

Myself? Hell I don't have my apps out yet. But if I have to choose between CCN and T2 with no debt, I'm not sure I have the balls right now to go T2. It could be the right play though - once you put 3 years of big law on your resume, no one gives a fuck where you went to school.

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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby Aqualibrium » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:56 pm

It's unlikely that you'll be choosing between CCN and a full ride at a t2 if you apply smart. If you have the numbers to get into CCN, someone in the top 40 or so will throw a very large chunk of change at you. At that point, you balance your desire to practice in the region that school is located in with the possibility for breaking into other markets.

My example isn't quite the same, but I turned down top 25's to go to a t1 with a full ride+. One year and several big law and boutique offers throughout the Southeast and Mid-Atlantic later, I'll be splitting my summer at a DC NLJ250 and a top boutique back home.
Last edited by Aqualibrium on Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

whymeohgodno
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Re: Hypothetical : you finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 school

Postby whymeohgodno » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:56 pm

ahduth wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
fugitivejammer wrote:there r apparently ppl from CCN top 1/3 who struck out! yea it must suck out there, but hearing about a few people like THAT striking out is more the exception to the rule than anything else. top 10% at t2 would for the most part b ok (with expcetions ofc), and to answer the OP's question: if u finish in the top 1-2% at a T2 then sweet jesus, you'll b able to find a biglaw job. u can xfer to t-14 if u wanted to and get into biglaw that way.

so tommy boy, i think u have a solid, fool-proof plan. get ur full tuition ride to T2 and just get top 1-2% and all will b well.


If you go to law school on this kind of advice, expect to be solely disappointed.


He won't be the only one disappointed. But, sure, there are going to be people from the top third of CCN who strike out. Why? Because they're misanthropic assholes who can't communicate or handle themselves in public. This same friend of mine also said her report when she comes back from OCI is regularly, "there were maybe five of them I could stand to be in the same room with for a half an hour."

The transfer comment isn't to the OP's query, but it's reasonable to bring up - if you're kicking ass in a T2 and think you'd be better off paying for T14, you could very possibly transfer.

The open question is whether or not the market will be as bad for 2014 as it was for the last OCI class. The same people who today are saying, "if you don't go T6 you're going to be doc review/unemployed," may be saying, "I am trapped in a debt prison of my own making" come 2015.

Myself? Hell I don't have my apps out yet. But if I have to choose between CCN and T2 with no debt, I'm not sure I have the balls right now to go T2. It could be the right play though - once you put 3 years of big law on your resume, no one gives a fuck where you went to school.


I agree with the last part. I doubt anyone seriously cares where you went to school after a few years of work.




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