3.48/164---safeties Forum

[Grizz]

Pittsburgh is the Northeast? Proof you are from Florida

*BUMP

CHECK YOU WIKIPEDIA

[bigkahuna2020]

Temple (out of state) and Camden (instate) are not worth sticker at all?

I'm gonna guess they are stingy with scholarship money, especially Camden after the budget cuts (neither Rutgers school even gave me a waiver, even with my numbers)...

[bigkahuna2020]

Pittsburgh is the Northeast? Proof you are from Florida

*BUMP

CHECK YOU WIKIPEDIA

Check yoself, chil'

[HeavenWood]

Temple (out of state) and Camden (instate) are not worth sticker at all?

I'm gonna guess they are stingy with scholarship money, especially Camden after the budget cuts (neither Rutgers school even gave me a waiver, even with my numbers)...

I was saying that if you're set on Philly, BU and GW are not worth sticker. But quite frankly, Temple and Rutgers-Camden aren't worth sticker either--the big difference is those schools offer competitive in-state rates.

TBF Radlaw, Pittsburgh is the cultural/geographical gateway to the Midwest. Folks out here are much different than back home.

[bigkahuna2020]

To judge what you mean as "not worth sticker", how debt averse are you...ie overall debt vs first year salary

Myself, I would like to make about 40-50% of my overall debt my first year...this means ~40k for Camden starting salary, as I am instate

And remember, PI and NJ clerkships are certainly a possibility for me

[im_blue]

for Philadelphia, outside of Penn and the T14, Temple > Villanova > Rutgers-Camden > Drexel

I've seen Temple > Nova on TLS many times, and I'm curious why Nova is widely regarded as the inferior school despite having better medians than Temple (3.44/162 vs 3.41/161). I've also heard that Nova is much more expensive than Temple, yet tuition is $36,700 for Nova vs $38,500 for Temple ($51,700 out of state).

[HeavenWood]

for Philadelphia, outside of Penn and the T14, Temple > Villanova > Rutgers-Camden > Drexel

I've seen Temple > Nova on TLS many times, and I'm curious why Nova is widely regarded as the inferior school despite having better medians than Temple (3.44/162 vs 3.41/161). I've also heard that Nova is much more expensive than Temple, yet tuition is $36,700 for Nova vs $38,500 for Temple ($51,700 out of state).

I don't know where you got those numbers, but Temple is 17k in-state (30k OOS). Villanova is just shy of 37k. Temple is also more generous with $$$ and enjoys a (slightly) better reputation in the city. It is the older and more established law school of the two.

[im_blue]

for Philadelphia, outside of Penn and the T14, Temple > Villanova > Rutgers-Camden > Drexel

I've seen Temple > Nova on TLS many times, and I'm curious why Nova is widely regarded as the inferior school despite having better medians than Temple (3.44/162 vs 3.41/161). I've also heard that Nova is much more expensive than Temple, yet tuition is $36,700 for Nova vs $38,500 for Temple ($51,700 out of state).

I don't know where you got those numbers, but Temple is 17k in-state (30k OOS). Villanova is just shy of 37k. Temple is also more generous with $$$ and enjoys a (slightly) better reputation in the city. It is the older and more established law school of the two.

Drr...mixed up tuition with total COA figures, OK that makes sense.

[bigkahuna2020]

for Philadelphia, outside of Penn and the T14, Temple > Villanova > Rutgers-Camden > Drexel

I've seen Temple > Nova on TLS many times, and I'm curious why Nova is widely regarded as the inferior school despite having better medians than Temple (3.44/162 vs 3.41/161). I've also heard that Nova is much more expensive than Temple, yet tuition is $36,700 for Nova vs $38,500 for Temple ($51,700 out of state).

I don't know where you got those numbers, but Temple is 17k in-state (30k OOS). Villanova is just shy of 37k. Temple is also more generous with $$$ and enjoys a (slightly) better reputation in the city. It is the older and more established law school of the two.

This thread became useful---one out of state safety found

[HeavenWood]

for Philadelphia, outside of Penn and the T14, Temple > Villanova > Rutgers-Camden > Drexel

I've seen Temple > Nova on TLS many times, and I'm curious why Nova is widely regarded as the inferior school despite having better medians than Temple (3.44/162 vs 3.41/161). I've also heard that Nova is much more expensive than Temple, yet tuition is $36,700 for Nova vs $38,500 for Temple ($51,700 out of state).

I don't know where you got those numbers, but Temple is 17k in-state (30k OOS). Villanova is just shy of 37k. Temple is also more generous with $$$ and enjoys a (slightly) better reputation in the city. It is the older and more established law school of the two.

This thread became useful---one out of state safety found

This thread has been useful. You just have selective listening skills.

[bigkahuna2020]

A person with above average but not great numbers needs to be a little deaf on this forum when asking for safeties in any case. Telling me "Rutgers-Newark isn't worth sticker" isn't exactly a relevant answer---I can decode the employment stats for 2009 quite well...and oddly enough, they aren't all that bad

--LinkRemoved--

90.5% employed (assuming non reported are not employed) out of a class of 243, 15 at temp jobs, 2 solo practice, outside of one PI job @30k, the lowest wages are 37 and 39k...perfectly fine to pay off ~80k of debt even at the lower end

True, about 23+15+2=40 of 243 are unemployed or at shitty jobs, but I'd say this is a FAR FAR cry from "not worth it unless it is free"

Perceptions may differ, but some of us actually like law as a career and would or have given up higher wages for it

[HeavenWood]

A person with above average but not great numbers needs to be a little deaf on this forum when asking for safeties in any case. Telling me "Rutgers-Newark isn't worth sticker" isn't exactly a relevant answer---I can decode the employment stats for 2009 quite well...and oddly enough, they aren't all that bad

--LinkRemoved--

90.5% employed (assuming non reported are not employed) out of a class of 243, 15 at temp jobs, 2 solo practice, outside of one PI job @30k, the lowest wages are 37 and 39k...perfectly fine to pay off ~80k of debt even at the lower end

True, about 23+15+2=40 of 243 are unemployed or at shitty jobs, but I'd say this is a FAR FAR cry from "not worth it unless it is free"

Perceptions may differ, but some of us actually like law as a career and would or have given up higher wages for it

Taking post-graduation employment statistics at face value? Rad Law, I'll let you handle this one.

[bigkahuna2020]

...all the law school transparency websites do is recrunch the numbers as I did above, assuming non reporters are unemployed and doing some basic statistics. Now the only hole is how many report income numbers, but looking at the PI and academia numbers, not to mention the clerkship numbers (which are pretty impressive, pretty cool having only 3 law schools in NJ) this might be a bit of a lesser problem, though it is clear there is a gap of 5-6 in the private reporting.

So no, not at "face value" but what the so called "transparency" sites do is really middle school math so no need to really get at them

EDIT-Looks like only about 100-110 in any give year report salary, so adding that to the rest means around ~180-190 are reporting salary out of private industry, clerkships, academia, military and PI, while government is another 14 (and tends to be restricted on the upper and lower levels at about what they are reporting)

In any case, still seems around 200 people of a class of 243 are getting gainful employment in the worst job market in 30 years---not perfect but it doesn't seem like the horrible hellhole y'all are makin it out to be

[Grizz]

...all the law school transparency websites do is recrunch the numbers as I did above, assuming non reporters are unemployed and doing some basic statistics. Now the only hole is how many report income numbers, but looking at the PI and academia numbers, not to mention the clerkship numbers (which are pretty impressive, pretty cool having only 3 law schools in NJ) this might be a bit of a lesser problem, though it is clear there is a gap of 5-6 in the private reporting.

So no, not at "face value" but what the so called "transparency" sites do is really middle school math so no need to really get at them

EDIT-Looks like only about 100-110 in any give year report salary, so adding that to the rest means around ~180-190 are reporting salary out of private industry, clerkships, academia, military and PI, while government is another 14 (and tends to be restricted on the upper and lower levels at about what they are reporting)

In any case, still seems around 200 people of a class of 243 are getting gainful employment in the worst job market in 30 years---not perfect but it doesn't seem like the horrible hellhole y'all are makin it out to be

That's not how LST works. If anything, LST admits that even their recalculations are rosier.

Stats for Rutgers Newark are based on less than half the class. Self-reported stats are basically worthless. The "middle school math" is pretty persuasive.

--LinkRemoved--

[bigkahuna2020]

The private sector obsession is telling. Look deeper---there are other clerkships than Article III's...

104 (2008, 2009??? but it's not like 2008 was great, and funny thing, I am really looking at projections for 2014)+NJ and AIII clerkships (70 in 2009), government work (14 in 2009), PI (2, 30k and 50k), Academia (2)...

So again, around 200 of 243 in decent jobs

EDIT-Why am I arguing with some 1L who thinks he knows everything...

[czelede]

For Chicago feeders, if you can get that LSAT up, it may be worth shooting an app to Illinois (166+). Unless you get a 170+, I would say UPenn and Northwestern are definitely out, and UMich and GULC would probably be as well (your application would be reviewed really late, so expect lots of WLs). If you want to work in Philly Temple is probably a good bet (especially if you get $$).

For what it's worth, I'm from the midwest (Chicago) and I am not a fan of Iowa or Indiana. UI-Indy will have you working in Indianapolis for quite a while afterwards too.

[Grizz]

The private sector obsession is telling. Look deeper---there are other clerkships than Article III's...

104 (2008, 2009??? but it's not like 2008 was great, and funny thing, I am really looking at projections for 2014)+NJ and AIII clerkships (70 in 2009), government work (14 in 2009), PI (2, 30k and 50k), Academia (2)...

So again, around 200 of 243 in decent jobs

EDIT-Why am I arguing with some 1L who thinks he knows everything...

stuff

If you ask for reasonable advice, don't complain when you get some.

[bigkahuna2020]

Rad Law. Get a life. Go study, if you are in law school, I got your message. If your ego needs this, keep going, but I am asking a specific question about my RELATIVE chances.

[HeavenWood]

Rad Law. Get a life. Go study, if you are in law school, I got your message. If your ego needs this, keep going, but I am asking a specific question about my RELATIVE chances.

The bottom line: you're doing the right thing by retaking the LSAT. See what you get in December, then come back for advice.