NYU and clerkships.

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FlamingCow
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NYU and clerkships.

Postby FlamingCow » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:26 am

I've been looking at clerkship placement info, and NYU seems to place many fewer than lower T14 and even T20 schools. Is this self-selection, or are NYU grads just not as competitive for clerkships as grads from other schools?

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NYC_7911
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby NYC_7911 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:30 am

What kind of clerkships are you looking at, specifically (i.e., district? circuit? SC?)? If you're just looking at number of clerks (but not level of clerkship), lower T-14 schools may have more because there are more lower clerkships available. If you look at the data for, say, the 2nd circuit court, you'll see that NYU placed the same number of clerks as Yale and more than CLS and Harvard in 2010-2011. My impression is that it's a great place to go if you want to clerk at a high level (much less likely for SC, of course).

FlamingCow
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby FlamingCow » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:38 am

I'm just looking at very general data -- the TaxProf blog blurb (http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... news-.html), which I think is the US News list.

Still, it says NYU puts 8.5% of grads into federal clerkships, compared to 13-ish% for Duke and UPenn. Would NYU grads not be going for lower clerkships, while Duke/UPenn grads do? That would seem a bit strange to me.

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clintonius
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby clintonius » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:18 pm

My guess would be that the 2nd Circuit phenomenon is due to location, not that NYU only sends people to high-level clerkships (that seems a little disingenuous, honestly). The 2nd Circuit is right here in New York, where NYU enjoys a great reputation. I believe it doesn't have that same reputation nationwide.

FlamingCow
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby FlamingCow » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:20 pm

That makes sense.

So could the info be read as, NYU grads are applying with and losing out to UPenn/Duke/UVA grads for the same clerkships (excepting the 2nd circuit)?

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plenipotentiary
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby plenipotentiary » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:20 pm

There's an explanation in the comments of the post you linked!

"Regionalism is also the explanation for NYU's place on this list. NYU's region is the Second Circuit, maybe some NJ Third Circuit judges, SDNY, EDNY and some D.N.J. judges. In the Second Circuit and SDNY in particular, NYU is competing with students from Yale, Harvard, Stanford, and every other law school in the country--everyone wants to come to New York. So when you compare this to students from Georgia, Vanderbilt and North Carolina who are clerking for their local district judges, NYU comes out on the bottom.

Regarding NYU v. Columbia, Columbia has been around longer and has more connections with Art. III judges. It is also likely that Columbia attracts the kind of student interested in a clerkship more so than NYU does."

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NYC_7911
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby NYC_7911 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:23 pm

clintonius wrote:My guess would be that the 2nd Circuit phenomenon is due to location, not that NYU only sends people to high-level clerkships (that seems a little disingenuous, honestly). The 2nd Circuit is right here in New York, where NYU enjoys a great reputation. I believe it doesn't have that same reputation nationwide.


I certainly didn't mean to suggest that NYU would only send to high-level clerkships, to the exclusion of others. Perhaps because of the good reputation it has in NY for big law, could it be that more students go that way then might be the case at say, Duke, where students are not in as geographically favorable a position for big law? I really don't know -- just hypothesizing on what might be some contributing factors to this number.

FlamingCow
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby FlamingCow » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:26 pm

plenipotentiary wrote:There's an explanation in the comments of the post you linked!


What do you know. RC fail. Thanks.

So, given all of that, do you think NYU students looking for an Article III clerkship are at a disadvantage relative to lower ranked schools (say MVP range, who seem to place well)?

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facetious
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby facetious » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:30 pm

1) large class size. 8% of 450 compared to 13% of 200 (Penn, Duke) are similar numbers overall. Since there are a finite number of clerkship positions, looking at aggregate numbers may make some sense rather than just percentages.

2) self-selection: we send one of the highest number of grads into PI (excluding clerkships, obviously); most people want to stay in ny and ny biglaw is fairly accessible, so many don't necessarily look for clerkships outside ny when they can get biglaw in the city.

3) competing against schools w/ a better reputation and more entrenched name in the legal field in the same area for some of the most competitive fed clerkships: SDNY, (EDNY), 2d Cir.

NYU has made an effort to increase clerkship opportunities for its students and grads, including a new clerkship office and specific advising on clerkships. Don't know if it will make that much of a difference, but it's something to keep in mind. Also agree that NYU isn't going to compete w/ other big name schools in their home districts/circuits - doesn't have the same name cache as HYS and CC have a more entrenched name among active judges; UVA owns its area; don't have much of a presence in CA/9th Cir, where we'd also be competing w/ SLS and Boalt.

Mostly just conjecture, but hth.

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plenipotentiary
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby plenipotentiary » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:31 pm

FlamingCow wrote:
plenipotentiary wrote:There's an explanation in the comments of the post you linked!


What do you know. RC fail. Thanks.

So, given all of that, do you think NYU students looking for an Article III clerkship are at a disadvantage relative to lower ranked schools (say MVP range, who seem to place well)?


Personally, I don't know enough to say.

I think another factor not mentioned might that students at NYU lean pretty far to the left. So, you don't have as many students going for clerkships with conservative judges, and clerkships with liberal judges tend to be more competitive (because lawyers as a whole tend to be more liberal).

FlamingCow
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby FlamingCow » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:41 pm

Thanks facetious, that was really helpful.

I want to do a clerkship, but I realize that's a lot easier said than done. For the sake of argument, though, if I were trying to maximize my chances of landing one, would I be dumb to attend a lower ranked school (Duke/UPenn/UVA for example) over NYU, with clerking opportunities driving the decision?

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plenipotentiary
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby plenipotentiary » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:42 pm

FlamingCow wrote:Thanks facetious, that was really helpful.

I want to do a clerkship, but I realize that's a lot easier said than done. For the sake of argument, though, if I were trying to maximize my chances of landing one, would I be dumb to attend a lower ranked school (Duke/UPenn/UVA for example) over NYU, with clerking opportunities driving the decision?


If you really super want to clerk, and you can get into NYU, you should probably go to Chicago.

FlamingCow
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby FlamingCow » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:50 pm

plenipotentiary wrote:If you really super want to clerk, and you can get into NYU, you should probably go to Chicago.


Yeah, that's true. Neither are a sure thing, and I'd be squeaking into NYU if I did get in. I was just curious about NYU's placement in particular.

twistedwrister
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby twistedwrister » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:17 pm

NYU 3L here. I just went through the clerkship application process, and I'd be happy to answer questions. I landed a D. Ct. clerkship for 2011 and a CoA clerkship (2/9/DC) for 2012, but it was really competitive this year, especially for 3Ls.

On the NYU v. other schools debate, I agree with much of what has been said. We lag significantly behind HYS for a number of reasons. However, we are competitive with CC, even looking at percentages and not raw numbers. I crunched the c/o 2009 numbers for NYU (which I got from the clerkship office) and Chicago (which Chicago provided to the lawschooltransparency website). For the c/o 2009, NYU placed a higher % of students in Article III clerkships than Chicago did. No small feat, considering NYU is more than twice the size of Chicago. As expected, most NYU clerks were in the northeast, while most Chicago clerks were on the 7th Cir. Also, Chicago did place a higher % (but lower raw number) in CoA clerkships.

Edit: Although it was very competitive this year, I know quite a few NYU 3Ls (some LR, some not) that landed CoA clerkships.

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capitalacq
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby capitalacq » Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:36 am

NYU > any lower ranked school for clerkships. but if you get into any higher ranked school than NYU, it will be even better.

Renzo
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby Renzo » Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:31 pm

There is a lot of historical bias in clerking, because current and former clerks can often be influential in helping future clerks, and NYU hasn't historically been a "clerkship" school, the way (for example) UCHi and UVA have been. NYU has poured considerable resources into changing this, and they're already having success. But, because of the long tail it, will take several years before the reputation catches up with the efforts. The last two years NYU has had great clerkship numbers, and those numbers will help bootstrap up the next generation.

twistedwrister
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Re: NYU and clerkships.

Postby twistedwrister » Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:16 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:Current COA clerk here. I agree with most of the discussion above. When we did our hiring earlier this summer/fall, I was very impressed with the candidates from NYU, and in talking with fellow clerks in my circuit and elsewhere, I know quite a few NYU students & alumni landed very good clerkships this year. In that regard, I gather the school's new office/clerkship advising program is having some success. The Ninth and DC Circuits in particular seem to be growth areas for NYU, if one is to believe the info posted on lawclerkaddict.com.

No matter where you go, you're going to need to do a few things to be competitive for these jobs. Specifically, you will need to (1) have very strong grades; (2) develop good relationships with professors; and (3) get actively involved in other quasi-academic ventures like law review. I do think NYU will offer you a marginally better shot than any lower-ranked school, but the differences are not very substantial for the most part. Penn, Cornell, and GULC all seem to place relatively few clerks, but that could be self-selection or due to other reasons. Or it could just be short-term noise in the data I've seen.


+1. NYU's bread and butter will always be the 2d Cir., but I have 3L friends who will be clerking for feeders on the D.C. and 9th Circuits. Also NYU places extremely well in the DE Court of Chancery (3/10 clerks in 2009, 3/10 in 2010, and at least 2/10 for 2011).




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