Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
acrossthelake
Posts: 4432
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:27 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:20 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:I wish Waterman were here. :(

Didn't he get a time out?


Yes. Unfortunately.

--ImageRemoved--

czelede
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:54 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby czelede » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:20 pm

bk1 wrote:
gz5hc9 wrote:"right about at the medians" does not mean "equal to being at medians".

when you are near the medians, it implies that you have similar numbers to most of the other applicants accepted to that school (half below, half above, most right around the middle), which means your scores are the types of scores that school frequently accepts.

back to the forum's topic - 2-3 points on the LSAT does not really matter. if you think otherwise, you fit in well with the other losers on this website.


I was banking on dumb but I might have to switch my vote to troll. This is a toughie.


I'm inclined not to say troll just because most trolls don't wait a whole week to troll? Maybe I'm just giving trolls too little credit.

User avatar
beachbum
Posts: 2766
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby beachbum » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:25 pm

gz5hc9 wrote:as I commented previously in this forum, .15 gpa and 1 point lsat are negligible when assessing the preparedness and quality of candidates - which is what admissions committees care about (ESPECIALLY schools that have already solidified their spots at the top of the rankings, e.g. T14).

if you think .15 gpa and 1 point lsat below the medians is considered "well below" the medians, wow, good luck on the logical reasoning sections of your next retake.


ITT: Dude makes assertions about what schools care about when the overwhelming body of evidence says otherwise. Dude is silly.

User avatar
Entchen
Posts: 722
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby Entchen » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:25 pm

acrossthelake wrote:I wish Waterman were here. :(

+1. He would be having a field day.

gz5hc9
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:32 am

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby gz5hc9 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 pm

I fully understand how medians work. You should realize that there are just as many people below the median as there are above it.

Your argument makes sense if you think that the only thing schools care about in admissions is how their medians will turn out at the end of the cycle.

Otherwise, 1 lsat point and .15 gpa points here and there do not matter on an individual basis. Schools' medians and 25th/75th percentiles go up/down 1-2 points every year.

whymeohgodno
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:15 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby whymeohgodno » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:28 pm

gz5hc9 wrote:I fully understand how medians work. You should realize that there are just as many people below the median as there are above it.

Your argument makes sense if you think that the only thing schools care about in admissions is how their medians will turn out at the end of the cycle.

Otherwise, 1 lsat point and .15 gpa points here and there do not matter on an individual basis. Schools' medians and 25th/75th percentiles go up/down 1-2 points every year.

Learn the difference between median and mean before you post in this thread again.

gz5hc9
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:32 am

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby gz5hc9 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:29 pm

mean is average. median is middle. i passed 4th grade, did you?

whymeohgodno
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:15 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby whymeohgodno » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:31 pm

gz5hc9 wrote:mean is average. median is middle. i passed 4th grade, did you?

Then you should realize how stupid it is to say there are just as many people above the median as below.

User avatar
northwood
Posts: 4872
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 7:29 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby northwood » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:32 pm

the lsat means a lot because everyone has to take it, and they have tried their best to make it as level of a playing field as possible ( another debate, but not for now okay). GPAs depend on a lot of things, and as such cannot be used as a good gauge of potential in law school ( a 4.0 basketweaving major is not smarter than a 3.0 chem major). That being said your gpa does provide some information about your abilities in school, and how you perform in a school setting. Everything else may help you, but does not apply to EVERYONE applying ( unlike the gpa and lsat). So, any increase on the lsat, or gpa is your best bet to getting into your top school.

if your numbers aren't at median or higher, you are below median. Even if you are right at median, it doesnt guarentee that you will get in numbers alone, you need something extra. For every bit further below median, the more "extra" you need. Since we dont and cant know what each admission team puts more weight on the extras ( grad degree, work, extra curriculars, etc) you cant safely gague if its good enough to get in.

gz5hc9
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:32 am

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby gz5hc9 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:34 pm

wow, anyone wanna back me up here?

10, 9, 9, 9, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1

Median is 3. Four numbers above it, four numbers below it.

Average is 5.22.

whymeohgodno
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:15 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby whymeohgodno » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:35 pm

gz5hc9 wrote:wow, anyone wanna back me up here?

10, 9, 9, 9, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1

Median is 3. Four numbers above it, four numbers below it.

Average is 5.22.


10 10 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Median is 5. 2 above a lot more below. Pass statistics next time.

gz5hc9
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:32 am

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby gz5hc9 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:36 pm

northwood wrote:the lsat means a lot because everyone has to take it, and they have tried their best to make it as level of a playing field as possible ( another debate, but not for now okay). GPAs depend on a lot of things, and as such cannot be used as a good gauge of potential in law school ( a 4.0 basketweaving major is not smarter than a 3.0 chem major). That being said your gpa does provide some information about your abilities in school, and how you perform in a school setting. Everything else may help you, but does not apply to EVERYONE applying ( unlike the gpa and lsat). So, any increase on the lsat, or gpa is your best bet to getting into your top school.

if your numbers aren't at median or higher, you are below median. Even if you are right at median, it doesnt guarentee that you will get in numbers alone, you need something extra. For every bit further below median, the more "extra" you need. Since we dont and cant know what each admission team puts more weight on the extras ( grad degree, work, extra curriculars, etc) you cant safely gague if its good enough to get in.


fully agree with this. as for being right at median, i think you have a good chance as long as you have good softs. but yes, it is no guarantee.

czelede
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:54 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby czelede » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:37 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
gz5hc9 wrote:wow, anyone wanna back me up here?

10, 9, 9, 9, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1

Median is 3. Four numbers above it, four numbers below it.

Average is 5.22.


10 10 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Median is 5. 2 above a lot more below. Pass statisticsthe 4th grade next time.

User avatar
acrossthelake
Posts: 4432
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:27 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:40 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
gz5hc9 wrote:wow, anyone wanna back me up here?

10, 9, 9, 9, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1

Median is 3. Four numbers above it, four numbers below it.

Average is 5.22.


10 10 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Median is 5. 2 above a lot more below. Pass statistics next time.


<3

gz5hc9
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:32 am

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby gz5hc9 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:43 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
gz5hc9 wrote:wow, anyone wanna back me up here?

10, 9, 9, 9, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1

Median is 3. Four numbers above it, four numbers below it.

Average is 5.22.


10 10 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Median is 5. 2 above a lot more below. Pass statistics next time.


I'm sure that really resembles the scores of accepted applicants. More likely scenario is what I described, especially when you consider that schools publish their 25th and 75th percentiles, as well, which often have a noticeable gap. The 25/75 percentiles for the numbers you posted above are 5/5.

Lots of schools have something like, 3.2/3.7 and 162/167.

whymeohgodno
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:15 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby whymeohgodno » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:45 pm

gz5hc9 wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
gz5hc9 wrote:wow, anyone wanna back me up here?

10, 9, 9, 9, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1

Median is 3. Four numbers above it, four numbers below it.

Average is 5.22.


10 10 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Median is 5. 2 above a lot more below. Pass statistics next time.


I'm sure that really resembles the scores of accepted applicants. More likely scenario is what I described, especially when you consider that schools publish their 25th and 75th percentiles, as well, which often have a noticeable gap. The 25/75 percentiles for the numbers you posted above are 5/5.

Lots of schools have something like, 3.2/3.7 and 162/167.

Cornell would beg to differ. 168 LSAT median 168 75th percentile.

Anyways I'm pretty convinced your just an idiot now. It was more fun when I thought I was dealing with a troll.

gz5hc9
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:32 am

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby gz5hc9 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:48 pm

Wash U St. Louis - 3.3/3.8, 161/168.

Illinois - 3.2/3.9, 160/167

Minnesota, Notre Dame, Ohio State, the list goes on.

User avatar
acrossthelake
Posts: 4432
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:27 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:50 pm

gz5hc9 wrote:
I'm sure that really resembles the scores of accepted applicants. More likely scenario is what I described, especially when you consider that schools publish their 25th and 75th percentiles, as well, which often have a noticeable gap. The 25/75 percentiles for the numbers you posted above are 5/5.

Lots of schools have something like, 3.2/3.7 and 162/167.



Columbia:
Median LSAT Score 172
Average LSAT Score 171
25/75 percentile LSAT 170/175

Median UGPA 3.72
Average UGPA 3.70
25/75 percentile UGPA 3.61/3.82

I feel like a .2 gpa gap is pretty narrow.

Shrimps
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:04 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby Shrimps » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:54 pm

Why do adcoms care so much about LSAT, less so about GPA, and little about anything else? Because good softs, from the law firms' perspective, have nothing to do with great sob stories, overcoming difficulties, or being a great trombone football player. A great "soft" for a law firm is being a senator's kid, a billionaire's grandkid or someone equally connected to the old boys' network. That's life.

They don't give a fluck about your growing up in a broken home or protecting children in Africa from malaria. This simply doesn't bring in business, and as a partner at a big law firm, that's exactly what you will be expected to do.

Well, what if you're nobody's kid? Well, then, they're looking for intelligence, industriousness and perseverance. They'd gladly base everything on a single test, if one could be designed to mimick success as a real life lawyer. LSAT is the best that they could come up with as far as intelligence testing is concerned, I suppose, and your GPA is a somewhat reliable indicator of industriousness and work habits (at least when it's too low with a high LSAT it's a red flag - smart slackers are unreliable, aren't they?)

Any law school that tries to fight law firms' demand for top students as THEY want them will see itself getting abandoned by the brightest students and recruiters. And no US News tweaking is going to change the fact that UC Berkeley, the weakest of the T14 by their LSAT range, is also the weakest of the T14 at placing its students with Vault 100 AND federal clerking. So much for discounting the LSAT.
Last edited by Shrimps on Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Shrimps
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:04 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby Shrimps » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:59 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
gz5hc9 wrote:
I'm sure that really resembles the scores of accepted applicants. More likely scenario is what I described, especially when you consider that schools publish their 25th and 75th percentiles, as well, which often have a noticeable gap. The 25/75 percentiles for the numbers you posted above are 5/5.

Lots of schools have something like, 3.2/3.7 and 162/167.



Columbia:
Median LSAT Score 172
Average LSAT Score 171
25/75 percentile LSAT 170/175

Median UGPA 3.72
Average UGPA 3.70
25/75 percentile UGPA 3.61/3.82

I feel like a .2 gpa gap is pretty narrow.


Comparison between law schools is more valuable.
Duke percentiles
3.60-3.84 (identical to Columbia)
167-171 (3-4 points below Columbia)

Which school has better job placement figures? The truth is, with rampant grade inflation and a fairly high correlation between LSAT and GPA, I suspect there's pretty much no correlation between a law school's standing in the law community and its GPA range.

US News ranking is a waste of time and paper. LSAT rank alone has a near perfect correlation with job placement rank (Vault + fed clerkships for T14).

whymeohgodno
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:15 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby whymeohgodno » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:00 pm

Shrimps wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
gz5hc9 wrote:
I'm sure that really resembles the scores of accepted applicants. More likely scenario is what I described, especially when you consider that schools publish their 25th and 75th percentiles, as well, which often have a noticeable gap. The 25/75 percentiles for the numbers you posted above are 5/5.

Lots of schools have something like, 3.2/3.7 and 162/167.



Columbia:
Median LSAT Score 172
Average LSAT Score 171
25/75 percentile LSAT 170/175

Median UGPA 3.72
Average UGPA 3.70
25/75 percentile UGPA 3.61/3.82

I feel like a .2 gpa gap is pretty narrow.


Comparison between law schools is more valuable.
Duke percentiles
3.60-3.84 (identical to Columbia)
167-171 (3-4 points below Columbia)

Which school has better job placement figures? The truth is, with rampant grade inflation and a fairly high correlation between LSAT and GPA, I suspect there's pretty much no correlation between a law school's standing in the law community and its GPA range.

US News ranking is a waste of time and paper. LSAT rank alone has a near perfect correlation with job placement rank (Vault + fed clerkships for T14).


While this could be true there is no way law schools would ever discount Ugrad GPA and rely entirely on the LSAT.

Shrimps
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:04 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby Shrimps » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:03 pm

Well, they do. With T14's GPA's being almost identical, almost everything in the 3.4-3.9 band seems to be irrelevant for most T14's. Low GPAs hurt not because average GPAs matter on their own, but because they're a mark of a slacker.

whymeohgodno
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:15 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby whymeohgodno » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:05 pm

Shrimps wrote:Well, they do. With T14's GPA's being almost identical, almost everything in the 3.4-3.9 band seems to be irrelevant for most T14's. Low GPAs hurt not because average GPAs matter on their own, but because they're a mark of a slacker.


LSN would tend to disagree.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18415
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby bk1 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:16 pm

Shrimps wrote:US News ranking is a waste of time and paper. LSAT rank alone has a near perfect correlation with job placement rank (Vault + fed clerkships for T14).


USNWR ranking is always very close to LSAT ranking, in some years it is exactly the same. If this was your point, it was hard to decipher from your post.

Shrimps
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:04 pm

Re: Do a few points on the LSAT really matter?

Postby Shrimps » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:22 pm

bk1 wrote:
Shrimps wrote:US News ranking is a waste of time and paper. LSAT rank alone has a near perfect correlation with job placement rank (Vault + fed clerkships for T14).


USNWR ranking is always very close to LSAT ranking, in some years it is exactly the same. If this was your point, it was hard to decipher from your post.


My point is that they push UC Berkeley way higher than it should be judging by its LSAT range (it should be the bottom of the T14), placing it at #6 last year, for example. Job placement data do not support the US News' rank. Otherwise, yes, the T14's US News ranking is nearly the same as the LSAT ranking.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Assasindowntheavenue, gwillygecko, whodareswins and 11 guests