Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
soccerfreak
Posts: 407
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:57 am

Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby soccerfreak » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:07 am

I am mainly considering T25 law schools in the midwest: WUSTL, Notre Dame, Vandy, Illinois. Considering I'm a 167/3.8 at a large state school, what are my chances at acceptance/$$ at these schools? In addition, which of these schools would be recommended, keeping in mind some of the following criteria:

Location: from St. Louis, and it would be preferred eventual living location
Area of Law: as a Physics/Econ double major, Patent Law is an option. Also, I would like to obtain a judicial clerkship.
Atmosphere: More friendly, noncompetitive environment preferred

Also, how much benefit does attending a T14 add that would negate my preference for geographic proximity? In other words how big a difference is there between 10 and 20?

User avatar
fugitivejammer
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:34 am

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby fugitivejammer » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:42 am

I think u will more than likely get in all those schools, w/ $ at Illinois and Notre Dame possibly. WUSTL is defintely the way to go though for the first and last criteria of yours. The best school for clerkship opportunity would def b vandy though. Since it's unlikely either way, i think ur best bet is to focus on QOL/location which would be WUSTL.

I highly highly recommend choosing a t14 over all these schools if given the choice, b/c i doubt ull get $ from wustl and vandy, and t14 full-tuition >>> illinois/ND some $. Honestly, at this point, w/ ur GPA, i'd recommend retaking the LSAT for sure, and try to get a few higher pts. Those points will get u into some t14s and might get u full ride at WUSTL which for your purposes MIGHT make sense depending on the t14s u get.

User avatar
soccerfreak
Posts: 407
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:57 am

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby soccerfreak » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:10 pm

fugitivejammer wrote:I think u will more than likely get in all those schools, w/ $ at Illinois and Notre Dame possibly. WUSTL is defintely the way to go though for the first and last criteria of yours. The best school for clerkship opportunity would def b vandy though. Since it's unlikely either way, i think ur best bet is to focus on QOL/location which would be WUSTL.

I highly highly recommend choosing a t14 over all these schools if given the choice, b/c i doubt ull get $ from wustl and vandy, and t14 full-tuition >>> illinois/ND some $. Honestly, at this point, w/ ur GPA, i'd recommend retaking the LSAT for sure, and try to get a few higher pts. Those points will get u into some t14s and might get u full ride at WUSTL which for your purposes MIGHT make sense depending on the t14s u get.

Thanks, yes I am definitely planning on retaking in December, as a 167 was at the BOTTOM of what I was expecting, thanks to my worst RC section of all time. I was PT'ing around 170.

I am interested into what exactly is the huge difference between T14 and T20/T25? Job prospects? Ability to find work on a more national level?

User avatar
soccerfreak
Posts: 407
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:57 am

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby soccerfreak » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:45 am

I am interested into what exactly is the huge difference between T14 and T20/T25? Job prospects? Ability to find work on a more national level?

User avatar
fugitivejammer
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:34 am

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby fugitivejammer » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:04 am

the biggest distinguisher of the "t14" has to do with job prospects and national reach. if u do a bit of research on TLS, u'll find some topics discussing school placement and such, and u can see clear differences amongst how well schools are able to place in some of the biggest/best firms and clerkships. u can also find OCI data for schools which further supports the whole t14 notion. the data indicates that there is a huge advantage in going to a t14 over any other school for biglaw/clerkship and all the best stuff.

the consensus seems to be: go to a t14 if u can OR u can potentially go to a t25 type of school that is a STRONG regional school in a city/region u actually have ties to or plan on working in, AND you get some $. if those qualifications are NOT met, it's really advisable to go to a t14 unless u have another really strong reason to go to another school - the difference is THAT big.

i would say after ur retake, assuming u do a few pts higher, and w/ ur st. louis prefernce for job locale, go to a t14 OR WUSTL w/ full tuition.

User avatar
fugitivejammer
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:34 am

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby fugitivejammer » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:05 am

sorry i couldnt give u exact numbers lol i think thats what u were lookin for, but im too tired and lazy at the moment, but u can find it on TLS w/ a bit of research

User avatar
2014
Posts: 5831
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:53 pm

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby 2014 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:34 am

soccerfreak wrote:
fugitivejammer wrote:I think u will more than likely get in all those schools, w/ $ at Illinois and Notre Dame possibly. WUSTL is defintely the way to go though for the first and last criteria of yours. The best school for clerkship opportunity would def b vandy though. Since it's unlikely either way, i think ur best bet is to focus on QOL/location which would be WUSTL.

I highly highly recommend choosing a t14 over all these schools if given the choice, b/c i doubt ull get $ from wustl and vandy, and t14 full-tuition >>> illinois/ND some $. Honestly, at this point, w/ ur GPA, i'd recommend retaking the LSAT for sure, and try to get a few higher pts. Those points will get u into some t14s and might get u full ride at WUSTL which for your purposes MIGHT make sense depending on the t14s u get.

Thanks, yes I am definitely planning on retaking in December, as a 167 was at the BOTTOM of what I was expecting, thanks to my worst RC section of all time. I was PT'ing around 170.

I am interested into what exactly is the huge difference between T14 and T20/T25? Job prospects? Ability to find work on a more national level?


PTing at 170 and getting 167 is completely normal and to be expected honestly. If you want to up your score you are going to need to get your PTs up to 173+, don't bank on continuing to practice around 170 assuming you will hit that the second time with no real further effort.

Of the schools you mention Vandy has a pretty national reach and in many respects is a t14, but it is not easier to get into than the bottom half of the legit t14 which is why most people would advise you to look elsewhere first.

User avatar
Aberzombie1892
Posts: 1907
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:56 am

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:47 am

Yeah Vandy and Michigan are, number wise, equivalents (see Class of 2013 medians).

2 things
1. I would suggest Vandy over the others and
2. Vandy isn't in the midwest

Assuming you get accepted to those 4 schools, you would likely be paying close to full price for each. If that happens to be the case, Vandy is the best option if you intend on taking on a lot of debt.

User avatar
Grizz
Posts: 10583
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:31 pm

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby Grizz » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:49 am

fugitivejammer wrote:I think u will more than likely get in all those schools, w/ $ at Illinois and Notre Dame possibly. WUSTL is defintely the way to go though for the first and last criteria of yours. The best school for clerkship opportunity would def b vandy though. Since it's unlikely either way, i think ur best bet is to focus on QOL/location which would be WUSTL.

I highly highly recommend choosing a t14 over all these schools if given the choice b/c i doubt ull get $ from wustl and vandy, and t14 full-tuition >>> illinois/ND some $. Honestly, at this point, w/ ur GPA, i'd recommend retaking the LSAT for sure, and try to get a few higher pts. Those points will get u into some t14s and might get u full ride at WUSTL which for your purposes MIGHT make sense depending on the t14s u get.


I'd go to Vandy over GULC and Cornell any day. Your attitude is silly. T14 isn't as meaningful as it used to be.

OP, people with your numbers got money at Vandy last year, but this year you may not even make it in thanks to the LSAT median increasing. Retaking if you think you can do better, but PTing at 170 and getting a 167 is normal.

Also

u can also find OCI data for schools which further supports the whole t14 notion. the data indicates that there is a huge advantage in going to a t14 over any other school for biglaw/clerkship and all the best stuff.


CHECK YOU RESEARCH. Stop spewing out unsupported assertions. Latest data supports for just straight NLJ250 employment, Vandy>Cornell and GULC.

motiontodismiss
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:36 pm

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby motiontodismiss » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:21 pm

rad law wrote:
fugitivejammer wrote:I think u will more than likely get in all those schools, w/ $ at Illinois and Notre Dame possibly. WUSTL is defintely the way to go though for the first and last criteria of yours. The best school for clerkship opportunity would def b vandy though. Since it's unlikely either way, i think ur best bet is to focus on QOL/location which would be WUSTL.

I highly highly recommend choosing a t14 over all these schools if given the choice b/c i doubt ull get $ from wustl and vandy, and t14 full-tuition >>> illinois/ND some $. Honestly, at this point, w/ ur GPA, i'd recommend retaking the LSAT for sure, and try to get a few higher pts. Those points will get u into some t14s and might get u full ride at WUSTL which for your purposes MIGHT make sense depending on the t14s u get.


I'd go to Vandy over GULC and Cornell any day. Your attitude is silly. T14 isn't as meaningful as it used to be.

OP, people with your numbers got money at Vandy last year, but this year you may not even make it in thanks to the LSAT median increasing. Retaking if you think you can do better, but PTing at 170 and getting a 167 is normal.

Also

u can also find OCI data for schools which further supports the whole t14 notion. the data indicates that there is a huge advantage in going to a t14 over any other school for biglaw/clerkship and all the best stuff.


CHECK YOU RESEARCH. Stop spewing out unsupported assertions. Latest data supports for just straight NLJ250 employment, Vandy>Cornell and GULC.


Which suggests to me that Cornell/Gtown don't belong in the T14. Or at least that Vanderbilt should replace one of them.

User avatar
s0ph1e2007
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:37 pm

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby s0ph1e2007 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:23 pm

People always misunderstand ND's admissions policies
They are special in that they genuinely care if you fit into their student body. Catholic? HUGE PLUS. Like their biggest soft.

theantiscalia
Posts: 320
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:18 pm

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby theantiscalia » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:25 pm

motiontodismiss wrote:
rad law wrote:
fugitivejammer wrote:I think u will more than likely get in all those schools, w/ $ at Illinois and Notre Dame possibly. WUSTL is defintely the way to go though for the first and last criteria of yours. The best school for clerkship opportunity would def b vandy though. Since it's unlikely either way, i think ur best bet is to focus on QOL/location which would be WUSTL.

I highly highly recommend choosing a t14 over all these schools if given the choice b/c i doubt ull get $ from wustl and vandy, and t14 full-tuition >>> illinois/ND some $. Honestly, at this point, w/ ur GPA, i'd recommend retaking the LSAT for sure, and try to get a few higher pts. Those points will get u into some t14s and might get u full ride at WUSTL which for your purposes MIGHT make sense depending on the t14s u get.


I'd go to Vandy over GULC and Cornell any day. Your attitude is silly. T14 isn't as meaningful as it used to be.

OP, people with your numbers got money at Vandy last year, but this year you may not even make it in thanks to the LSAT median increasing. Retaking if you think you can do better, but PTing at 170 and getting a 167 is normal.

Also

u can also find OCI data for schools which further supports the whole t14 notion. the data indicates that there is a huge advantage in going to a t14 over any other school for biglaw/clerkship and all the best stuff.


CHECK YOU RESEARCH. Stop spewing out unsupported assertions. Latest data supports for just straight NLJ250 employment, Vandy>Cornell and GULC.


Which suggests to me that Cornell/Gtown don't belong in the T14. Or at least that Vanderbilt should replace one of them.


So you'd propose sticking with the 14 distinction and instead just put different schools in it? That's just absurd. Who the hell refers to anything as the Top 14? Let's just all agree to go with Top 10, Top 15, Top 20, Top 25, Top 30, et cetera.

User avatar
AreJay711
Posts: 3406
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:51 pm

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby AreJay711 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:39 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Yeah Vandy and Michigan are, number wise, equivalents (see Class of 2013 medians).

2 things
1. I would suggest Vandy over the others and
2. Vandy isn't in the midwest

Assuming you get accepted to those 4 schools, you would likely be paying close to full price for each. If that happens to be the case, Vandy is the best option if you intend on taking on a lot of debt.


Michigan is still probably a better choice than Vandy. I really like Vandy myself but applied ED to Michigan. Being in the Midwest isn't that bad a thing (saying someone who grew up on the Chesapeake). Still, Vandy would be a top 14 if it was on the coast or near a major legal market.

User avatar
Grizz
Posts: 10583
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:31 pm

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby Grizz » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:46 pm

AreJay711 wrote:Michigan is still probably a better choice than Vandy. I really like Vandy myself but applied ED to Michigan. Being in the Midwest isn't that bad a thing (saying someone who grew up on the Chesapeake). Still, Vandy would be a top 14 if it was on the coast or near a major legal market.


I might go to Vandy over Michigan if I knew 100% that I wanted to be in the South and I got somewhat more money.

User avatar
Grizz
Posts: 10583
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:31 pm

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby Grizz » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:47 pm

theantiscalia wrote:So you'd propose sticking with the 14 distinction and instead just put different schools in it? That's just absurd. Who the hell refers to anything as the Top 14? Let's just all agree to go with Top 10, Top 15, Top 20, Top 25, Top 30, et cetera.


Those also aren't meaningful distinctions.

theantiscalia
Posts: 320
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:18 pm

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby theantiscalia » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:53 pm

rad law wrote:
theantiscalia wrote:So you'd propose sticking with the 14 distinction and instead just put different schools in it? That's just absurd. Who the hell refers to anything as the Top 14? Let's just all agree to go with Top 10, Top 15, Top 20, Top 25, Top 30, et cetera.


Those also aren't meaningful distinctions.


You're correct; they aren't. But damn it, in America, when we arbitrarily rank things, we do it in sets of five.

How would you react if the college football poll all of a sudden became the Top 23? Or if US News started making Tier 1 the top 37? (In both cases, I pulled that number out of nowhere.) You'd feel like something was off. And that's how people feel with the T-14 distinction.

And OP, go to WUSTL.

User avatar
soccerfreak
Posts: 407
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:57 am

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby soccerfreak » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:46 pm

Right now I am still wondering as to whether in a smaller market like St. Louis, Wash U's local ties as well as being a T20 school will provide me better opportunities than a "T14." Maybe a current law school student going through OCI could comment on that.

Also, in looking for a federal clerkship, could the fact that the 8th federal district court is in St. Louis give Wash U any kind of advantage in that area?

kams
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:10 pm

Re: Wash U/ND/Vandy/Illinois

Postby kams » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:57 am

Hey, I am a Mizzou alum as well! My stats were a 3.7/166, and I applied in 2008.

I got into WUSTL and got about half
Got into U of I and got about 3/4
Got into ND and got about 1/2
Didn't apply to Vandy

Also got into USC/GW/Fordham/BC/Northwestern and ended up attending BU

My advice is to venture out of the midwest. First of all, I have nothing against Midwest schools. I think they're great, and I almost attended WUSTL. But I think it is harder for a school like U of I or WUSTL to go to a big city like NY or states like CA. Whereas, a school like GW/BU and definitely Vandy (although they're still Midwest) feed more into bigger cities, but still are well-known enough to allow mobility back to the Midwest. This year, I got offers from a couple NY firms, but I also got some offers from a couple of the big midwest firms as well. Whereas, I'm sure if I had attended WUSTL or UIUC, my options would have been confined to the midwest.

So that's my 2 cents




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: dnyl56, phelpsy and 3 guests