If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

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Rory1987
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If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby Rory1987 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:37 am

I want to work in Philadelphia. I have very strong “ties” there. If I don’t get into a T14 or T17 would attending a T25 like a BU, Minnesota, Illinois, et cetera be a wise choice instead of attending a Temple of Villanova? I know the TLS mantra “T14 or a school where you want to practice.” But wouldn’t going to a school like BU or UMN or GWU give me a leg up over other the grads of T2 schools like Temple and Nova because I have strong ties to the area?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:46 am

First, stop throwing around arbitrary distinctions. After T14+ V, they are all essentially on the same wavelength (each one is unique, but still rarely is one school waaaay better than another one) until you reach schools that are in either A) small markets or B) ranked lower in crowded markets.

Second, from what I understand, that market is difficult to break into. I would consider Temple/Villanova and only consider higher ranked schools (outside T14+V) if they have a really high curve (i.e. curve to a 3.2/3.3 or higher). If I am not mistaken, Temple and Villanova curve to a 3.0. The .2/.3 difference can be a huge deal for employers that have 3.0 cutoffs (more of them have these than you would think).

Third, I'm not sure BU/BC would help, but I do remember someone saying GW is well regarded there. However, I am not sure.

Fourth, no private school (or expensive or out of state public school) outside HYSCCN is worth sticker. Don't be stupid and pay full price to BU/BC/BPMVNDCG/Vandy/GW/etc. But, Temple's instate rates are okay.

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JazzOne
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby JazzOne » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:48 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:First, stop throwing around arbitrary distinctions. After T14+ V, they are all essentially on the same wavelength (each one is unique, but still rarely is one school waaaay better than another one) until you reach schools that are in either A) small markets or B) ranked lower in crowded markets.

Second, from what I understand, that market is difficult to break into. I would consider Temple/Villanova and only consider higher ranked schools (outside T14+V) if they have a really high curve (i.e. curve to a 3.2/3.3 or higher). If I am not mistaken, Temple and Villanova curve to a 3.0. The .2/.3 difference can be a huge deal for employers that have 3.0 cutoffs (more of them have these than you would think).

Third, I'm not sure BU/BC would help, but I do remember someone saying GW is well regarded there. However, I am not sure.

Fourth, no private school (or expensive or out of state public school) outside HYSCCN is worth sticker. Don't be stupid and pay full price to BU/BC/BPMVNDCG/Vandy/GW/etc. But, Temple's instate rates are okay.

I love how including V with the T14 is not arbitrary, but including two schools that are ranked higher than V is arbitrary. I don't think OP should attend UCLA or UT either, but I don't think Vandy's placement is better than UT's or UCLA's. Am I wrong? I'm not a placement stats guru, but I'd be really surprised if Vandy was cleaning up this year.

r6_philly
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby r6_philly » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:53 am

Don't some PA firms recruit at USC and similarly ranked schools?

Anyway, if you are set on philly I'd just go to Temple for cheap if T14 is out. I don't think you will have much luck with top positions but finding a local job is going to be easier from Temple, IMO.

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ahduth
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby ahduth » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:00 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Fourth, no private school (or expensive or out of state public school) outside HYSCCN is worth sticker. Don't be stupid and pay full price to BU/BC/BPMVNDCG/Vandy/GW/etc. But, Temple's instate rates are okay.


Is the "P" in that list Penn? Is he telling the OP that it's a bad idea to pay sticker at Penn if he wants to work in Philly?

To go back to the original question, it probably depends on what those ties are. If they're the types of ties that can get you interviews, seems reasonable to go to the best school possible. Temple is super cheap though.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:09 am

JazzOne wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:First, stop throwing around arbitrary distinctions. After T14+ V, they are all essentially on the same wavelength (each one is unique, but still rarely is one school waaaay better than another one) until you reach schools that are in either A) small markets or B) ranked lower in crowded markets.

Second, from what I understand, that market is difficult to break into. I would consider Temple/Villanova and only consider higher ranked schools (outside T14+V) if they have a really high curve (i.e. curve to a 3.2/3.3 or higher). If I am not mistaken, Temple and Villanova curve to a 3.0. The .2/.3 difference can be a huge deal for employers that have 3.0 cutoffs (more of them have these than you would think).

Third, I'm not sure BU/BC would help, but I do remember someone saying GW is well regarded there. However, I am not sure.

Fourth, no private school (or expensive or out of state public school) outside HYSCCN is worth sticker. Don't be stupid and pay full price to BU/BC/BPMVNDCG/Vandy/GW/etc. But, Temple's instate rates are okay.

I love how including V with the T14 is not arbitrary, but including two schools that are ranked higher than V is arbitrary. I don't think OP should attend UCLA or UT either, but I don't think Vandy's placement is better than UT's or UCLA's. Am I wrong? I'm not a placement stats guru, but I'd be really surprised if Vandy was cleaning up this year.


Well, I went with Vanderbilt bc it is the only school that rivals the T14 in big law and the only school that saw a meaningful increase in biglaw for its 2009 class.

ahduth wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Fourth, no private school (or expensive or out of state public school) outside HYSCCN is worth sticker. Don't be stupid and pay full price to BU/BC/BPMVNDCG/Vandy/GW/etc. But, Temple's instate rates are okay.


Is the "P" in that list Penn? Is he telling the OP that it's a bad idea to pay sticker at Penn if he wants to work in Philly?

To go back to the original question, it probably depends on what those ties are. If they're the types of ties that can get you interviews, seems reasonable to go to the best school possible. Temple is super cheap though.


Yes. Good jobs from Penn aren't guaranteed. Because of that reason alone, paying sticker isn't worth it. If he/she gets a scholarship, then it would be the obvious choice (like you said).

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RVP11
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby RVP11 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:10 am

Paying $0 for Temple is about equally as dumb as paying $150k for Penn, mayn.

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JazzOne
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby JazzOne » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:13 am

I really wanted to work in Texas, so I wasn't too concerned with UT's overall placement stats. However, the following document confirms that Vandy's biglaw placement (pre-ITE) was much better than UT's.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414 ... trends.pdf

r6_philly
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby r6_philly » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:46 am

RVP11 wrote:Paying $0 for Temple is about equally as dumb as paying $150k for Penn, mayn.


What are you saying? Don't go to law school? (I am genuinely not understanding you. Not being sarcastic)

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Lwoods
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby Lwoods » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:47 am

Without your ties, what type of school would you have to go to in order to get the same job? To play it safe, I'd go to one of those. Connections often won't help you if you don't go to the right school and/or get the right grades.

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RVP11
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby RVP11 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:54 pm

r6_philly wrote:
RVP11 wrote:Paying $0 for Temple is about equally as dumb as paying $150k for Penn, mayn.


What are you saying? Don't go to law school? (I am genuinely not understanding you. Not being sarcastic)


I'm not saying paying full sticker for Penn is dumb. I'm saying however dumb someone might think paying sticker for Penn is, they should recognize that paying $0 for Temple isn't any smarter. This is assuming the person wants a high paying job.

r6_philly
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby r6_philly » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:57 pm

RVP11 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
RVP11 wrote:Paying $0 for Temple is about equally as dumb as paying $150k for Penn, mayn.


What are you saying? Don't go to law school? (I am genuinely not understanding you. Not being sarcastic)


I'm not saying paying full sticker for Penn is dumb. I'm saying however dumb someone might think paying sticker for Penn is, they should recognize that paying $0 for Temple isn't any smarter. This is assuming the person wants a high paying job.


Thanks for the clarification, we basically agree then. Temple is a good option if you are ok with $40-60 starting salaries since in-state tuition is low before likely scholarships.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:59 pm

JazzOne wrote:I really wanted to work in Texas, so I wasn't too concerned with UT's overall placement stats. However, the following document confirms that Vandy's biglaw placement (pre-ITE) was much better than UT's.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414 ... trends.pdf


Have you seen the 2009 stats?

r6_philly wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
RVP11 wrote:Paying $0 for Temple is about equally as dumb as paying $150k for Penn, mayn.


What are you saying? Don't go to law school? (I am genuinely not understanding you. Not being sarcastic)


I'm not saying paying full sticker for Penn is dumb. I'm saying however dumb someone might think paying sticker for Penn is, they should recognize that paying $0 for Temple isn't any smarter. This is assuming the person wants a high paying job.


Thanks for the clarification, we basically agree then. Temple is a good option if you are ok with $40-60 starting salaries since in-state tuition is low before likely scholarships.


I agree. But if you strike out a Penn, is it worth the additional cost?

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RVP11
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby RVP11 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:00 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:But if you strike out a Penn, is it worth the additional cost?


If you strike out at Harvard, was it worth the cost?

At some point you have to take a calculated risk.

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JazzOne
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby JazzOne » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:02 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Have you seen the 2009 stats?

Nah, I honestly didn't care about stats. I am from Texas, so I knew I would get in-state tuition at UT. Plus, when I began law school, I really wasn't interested in biglaw. I just wanted a break from my teaching job. That turned out to be a good decision.

r6_philly
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby r6_philly » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:04 pm

That's a tougher call I suppose. If you go to Temple next to nothing, you are in a good position although you pretty much preclude most high paying positions. If you go out of state for near sticker, I don't know if you will have any better chance of landing high paying jobs in Philly. Maybe Philly isn't the answer/isn't likely to happen.

Rory1987
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby Rory1987 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:04 pm

What if your 'rents are picking up the tab? Does no debt regardless of where I go, then make Minnesota >>> Temple?

Rory1987
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby Rory1987 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:06 pm

And does anyone know why Philly has a reputation for being so hard of a market to crack?

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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby r6_philly » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:09 pm

Even if no cost is involved, I still don't know if going out of state to a regional school is > temple in Philly. Target some firms you would like to work for and take a look at the profiles. You will also have to look for positions on your own, the school would not likely to be helpful out of market. So I don't know how to quantify the difference between the 2 options, but maybe the best choice is to go to the best regional school you are willing to go to, and stay in that market (try for Philly too, but don't expect it to work out/be competitive). If you go to Temple, you may be tied to the area for good (you never know you may want to move eventually). If family is willing to pay, then go wherever.

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bk1
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby bk1 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:10 pm

Rory1987 wrote:And does anyone know why Philly has a reputation for being so hard of a market to crack?

I could be wrong but I think it is due to the. size of its legal market.

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Lwoods
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby Lwoods » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:15 pm

Rory1987 wrote:What if your 'rents are picking up the tab? Does no debt regardless of where I go, then make Minnesota >>> Temple?


To amend my previous post, you do not need to go to the precise schools that the job would require without your connections, but you should go to a similarly or higher ranked school to be safe. This is because your contacts will likely need to speak with their peers to say "we should hire this kid" and will want to back their argument with more than "we like him" or "he's my nephew". So, I would think since Minnesota is ranked much higher than Temple, you shouldn't feel the need to go to Temple over Minnesota. Regionally, Minnesota probably isn't as strong in Philly as Temple, but your ties will be able to point to the prestige of your school when making their argument to hire you.

Now, maybe your ties are such that it really doesn't matter where you go (e.g. you're taking over your dad's practice), but I don't think you'd be asking the question the way you did if that was the case.


ETA: Once you know your options, I'd run them by your contacts to get some more definite answers. If you say, "I got into both Minnesota and Temple. Minnesota is ranked 22 while Temple is ranked 72, but I really want to come back to Philly and work with you. What do you think I should do?"
FWIW, I plan on having a similar conversation with my contacts, assuming I get in anywhere. ;)
Last edited by Lwoods on Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kk19131
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby kk19131 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:17 pm

Are you honestly asking if going to a place like Minnesota would be better for getting a job in Philly than going to Temple/Villanova? :?

r6_philly
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby r6_philly » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:17 pm

bk1 wrote:
Rory1987 wrote:And does anyone know why Philly has a reputation for being so hard of a market to crack?

I could be wrong but I think it is due to the. size of its legal market.


Even for 2008 data Temple only place 12% in biglaw, some of it must be NYC as well. I think with Penn and other T14 grads in the area is just incredibly small market for a lot of graduates. Getting top 10% at Temple may be pretty hard and requires luck, and I wouldn't bank on that. I personally know a few classmates that are going to gtown, NYU and Cornell and all plan to come back to the area, I think they still are more competitive without the same class rank requirement.

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RVP11
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby RVP11 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:20 pm

kk19131 wrote:Are you honestly asking if going to a place like Minnesota would be better for getting a job in Philly than going to Temple/Villanova? :?


Wouldn't be the most shocking placement quandary I've ever heard.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: If one has ties to an area is T14 or regional school necessa

Postby D. H2Oman » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:22 pm

r6_philly wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Rory1987 wrote:And does anyone know why Philly has a reputation for being so hard of a market to crack?

I could be wrong but I think it is due to the. size of its legal market.


Even for 2008 data Temple only place 12% in biglaw, some of it must be NYC as well. I think with Penn and other T14 grads in the area is just incredibly small market for a lot of graduates. Getting top 10% at Temple may be pretty hard and requires luck, and I wouldn't bank on that. I personally know a few classmates that are going to gtown, NYU and Cornell and all plan to come back to the area, I think they still are more competitive without the same class rank requirement.



Plus that 10% is now more like 2-3%.




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