School expectations

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: School expectations

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:29 pm

reasonable_man wrote:I'm a life-long NYer, from a not so nice part of town (which, maybe, has led me to be less forgiving of trumped up psycho-bable), but frankly, I know people that lost family that day and that is worthy of some serious consideration. But simply witnessing it from 35 blocks away on the NYU campus is just not convincing from my point of view. So I'm sorry, but on this point, you and I differ and I believe that, even on TLS, we are allowed to not agree.

You're allowed to not agree, and on a personal level I'll agree that you're not required to agree with me on anything I said. It makes me sad that you won't, but I can't do anything to change that. Your opinion is yours.

But you're not allowed to come into a thread where someone is legitimately asking for advice on whether they should discuss something in their application, and start judging and berating them for even thinking their question is valid, and you are required to agree with me as a moderator on this.

User avatar
reasonable_man
Posts: 2200
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: School expectations

Postby reasonable_man » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:45 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:I'm a life-long NYer, from a not so nice part of town (which, maybe, has led me to be less forgiving of trumped up psycho-bable), but frankly, I know people that lost family that day and that is worthy of some serious consideration. But simply witnessing it from 35 blocks away on the NYU campus is just not convincing from my point of view. So I'm sorry, but on this point, you and I differ and I believe that, even on TLS, we are allowed to not agree.

You're allowed to not agree, and on a personal level I'll agree that you're not required to agree with me on anything I said. It makes me sad that you won't, but I can't do anything to change that. Your opinion is yours.

But you're not allowed to come into a thread where someone is legitimately asking for advice on whether they should discuss something in their application, and start judging and berating them for even thinking their question is valid, and you are required to agree with me as a moderator on this.


I find it odd that you draw the line in the sand here. There are countless threads where people are berated for their choice in law school, the situations leading to that choice etc. I almost never see you jumping in to stop some good ole fashioned TTT bashing; but here, I went to far? Very interesting. Very interesting indeed. I guess its a "know it when you see it standard" eh?

User avatar
Tanicius
Posts: 2957
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:54 am

Re: School expectations

Postby Tanicius » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:48 pm

I'm sorry. But i'm entitled to my point of view and my point of view on this is simple. It was an awful tragic event. I actually watched the towers fall with my own two eyes. My aunt worked on the ground floor and luckily was late to work that day because she stopped off to vote in a local election. My step father was working on the 86th floor the day prior doing a telecom install. My fiance's father, a decorated high ranking NYPD officer was working at 1 police plaza that day and was inside the towers doing evacuation before they came down. I was close to this as well. But I do not believe that being 35 blocks away at NYU should have sufficiently caused me, or any other NYU student, enough stress to serve as a mitigating factor for grades, etc., so much so that its worthy of bringing it up to an adcom.

I'm a life-long NYer, from a not so nice part of town (which, maybe, has led me to be less forgiving of trumped up psycho-bable), but frankly, I know people that lost family that day and that is worthy of some serious consideration. But simply witnessing it from 35 blocks away on the NYU campus is just not convincing from my point of view. So I'm sorry, but on this point, you and I differ and I believe that, even on TLS, we are allowed to not agree.


But what we do agree on:


1. Your contribution to this thread was zero.


2. Your attack on the OP doesn't even make sense given what the OP actually said.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: School expectations

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:52 pm

reasonable_man wrote:I find it odd that you draw the line in the sand here. There are countless threads where people are berated for their choice in law school, the situations leading to that choice etc. I almost never see you jumping in to stop some good ole fashioned TTT bashing; but here, I went to far? Very interesting. Very interesting indeed. I guess its a "know it when you see it standard" eh?

1) It was reported. I'll respond more strongly to reports, because they indicate someone other than me was offended.

2) You were bashing someone for asking whether they should identify a traumatic experience as a source of a GPA dip. That's much more egregious, and deters people who need help on this forum from asking for it, much more than calling someone's school a TTT IMO.

3) If you want to keep discussing it, please move it to the Moderation Q&A thread in the Lounge. For the OP's sake this thread should try to get back on-topic. There are other places to discuss moderation if that's what you want to discuss.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18406
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: School expectations

Postby bk1 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:53 pm

This whole discussion is largely irrelevant, though I think that neither RM or VW are completely right (though VW does have the purple name). That is neither here nor there.

OP: Worry about doing well on the LSAT and getting a 170+ if you want a top school. If you don't hit that your first time then retake. This addendum, even if it is legitimate, is unlikely to help you outperform your numbers. End of story.

User avatar
Jack Smirks
Posts: 1340
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 5:35 am

Re: School expectations

Postby Jack Smirks » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:54 pm

vanwinkle wrote:you are required to agree with me as a moderator on this.

I couldn't agree with this more.

But in all serious OP, I'm PMing you with advice.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: School expectations

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:55 pm

bk1 wrote:OP: Worry about doing well on the LSAT and getting a 170+ if you want a top school. If you don't hit that your first time then retake. This addendum, even if it is legitimate, is unlikely to help you outperform your numbers. End of story.

All of this is 100% true and accurate. However, I will just add that a legitimate addendum in combination with a high LSAT and WE, can help outperform your GPA at least. You do still need the high LSAT score and the other positive factors to point to in your application.

User avatar
reasonable_man
Posts: 2200
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: School expectations

Postby reasonable_man » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:58 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:I find it odd that you draw the line in the sand here. There are countless threads where people are berated for their choice in law school, the situations leading to that choice etc. I almost never see you jumping in to stop some good ole fashioned TTT bashing; but here, I went to far? Very interesting. Very interesting indeed. I guess its a "know it when you see it standard" eh?

1) It was reported. I'll respond more strongly to reports, because they indicate someone other than me was offended.

2) You were bashing someone for asking whether they should identify a traumatic experience as a source of a GPA dip. That's much more egregious, and deters people who need help on this forum from asking for it, much more than calling someone's school a TTT.

3) If you want to keep discussing it, please move it to the Moderation Q&A thread in the Lounge. For the OP's sake this thread should try to get back on-topic. There are other places to discuss moderation if that's what you want to discuss.


Nope. I've seen enough arbitrary enforcement for one day. I get it now. Its ok to deter serious questions about lower ranked schools by letting posters have a field day on those said schools. Its not ok to hurt the feelings of one special snowflake who has to ask a largely irrelevent question about whether his "trauma" should be reported on his application. We care about those kinds of inquiries and must protect those ops. We don't care about ops asking about TTTs. Understood. Good talk. See you out there.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: School expectations

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:04 pm

reasonable_man wrote:Nope. I've seen enough arbitrary enforcement for one day. I get it now. Its ok to deter serious questions about lower ranked schools by letting posters have a field day on those said schools. Its not ok to hurt the feelings of one special snowflake who has to ask a largely irrelevent question about whether his "trauma" should be reported on his application. We care about those kinds of inquiries and must protect those ops. We don't care about ops asking about TTTs. Understood. Good talk. See you out there.

Sigh. Why do people think a parting shot is okay after they've been told to stop?

Image

If you wish to protest my fascism, your appropriate forum for doing so is here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=132921

User avatar
LAWLAW09
Posts: 303
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:09 am

Re: School expectations

Postby LAWLAW09 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:29 pm

b/c folks read "I'm thinking about submitting MY application with [insert questionable strategy]" as "I'm thinking about submitting YOUR application with [insert questionable strategy]"?

User avatar
worldtraveler
Posts: 7662
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:47 am

Re: School expectations

Postby worldtraveler » Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:21 pm

OP I had a similar GPA that was low for valid reasons. I didn't address it in a GPA addendum, but my LOR writers were very familiar with my situation and they both spent some time explaining that my overall GPA was not indicative of my abilities, and that the couple of semesters that drug my GPA down severely shouldn't have an impact on my application. If you have a similar opportunity, I would suggest it. Given my success in applications, this strategy certainly didn't hurt me.

Otherwise, law schools are aware that most people have multiple commitments during undergrad and that it takes a toll on your GPA. Working during school isn't really exceptional. However, if you have documented PTSD or really did have problems after 9/11, it could be worth mentioning.

You will very likely still need a 170 or above to break the T10, and an addendum can only do so much.

User avatar
Lwoods
Posts: 1484
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:27 am

Re: School expectations

Postby Lwoods » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:00 pm

McBailey wrote:ATTN: "reasonable man"

It was never my intention to say that mentioning 9/11 would help me get into law school. Of course not. In fact, only an idiot would perceive my original post as such. I would never use a national tragedy as a byline to a law school application. I apologize if it was perceived that way. I only meant to say that along with a number of several other personal tragedies that occurred while I was in school - the death of my father, the suicide of a close friend, being caretaker for my godmother during her battle with cervical cancer (and no, I am not exaggerating any of these) - I have dealt with a lot on top of the experiences of a typical college undergrad. None of this makes me a better applicant. All it does is provide some background on me and my experiences. And for the record: I, too, was a Freshmen on 9/11 and watched the towers fall form 5th avenue. The tragedy of that day is not lost on me.


I'm sorry for your loss. I'm not sure if you're still checking this, but if the loss of your father and friend affected your performance (and I don't see how those tragedies wouldn't), a GPA addendum is definitely warranted. It will help adcomms understand you and what your life was like in college.
Last edited by Lwoods on Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
kwais
Posts: 1683
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 12:28 pm

Re: School expectations

Postby kwais » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:10 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:So where were the "burdens" that i missed in there? Going to work and living through 9/11? Those aren't burdens, that's life for most Americans.

You do a good job of keeping these boards in check, so I'll defer to you in this instance out of respect, but frankly, I don't see anything in here that would come close to a burden worth addressing to a law school adcom.

Surviving 9/11 was a burden and legitimate traumatic experience for many thousands of New Yorkers. I referred to PTSD because it there was a real spike in PTSD diagnoses specific to people who were in 9/11 and directly witnessed the event or its effects that day. There are real, demonstrated long-term effects on survivors and direct witnesses, and the fact that you didn't suffer them doesn't mean they didn't become significant burdens for others.

Real people are not like John Wayne. They don't shrug off trauma as "that's life" and carry on. Maybe some do, but on the whole as a species, people don't. Expecting everyone to be John Wayne and being hostile toward those who aren't is not a great idea.

Pretend I'm not a moderator for a minute and please just listen to me on this as a person who is very familiar with the effects of trauma small and large on people. It's important to respect that things effect different people in different degrees and there are people who were legitimately traumatized by 9/11, and to not diminish or mock that so completely. It's hard enough overcoming the effects on you without dealing with people mocking your trauma.


I'm sorry. But i'm entitled to my point of view and my point of view on this is simple. It was an awful tragic event. I actually watched the towers fall with my own two eyes. My aunt worked on the ground floor and luckily was late to work that day because she stopped off to vote in a local election. My step father was working on the 86th floor the day prior doing a telecom install. My fiance's father, a decorated high ranking NYPD officer was working at 1 police plaza that day and was inside the towers doing evacuation before they came down. I was close to this as well. But I do not believe that being 35 blocks away at NYU should have sufficiently caused me, or any other NYU student, enough stress to serve as a mitigating factor for grades, etc., so much so that its worthy of bringing it up to an adcom.

I'm a life-long NYer, from a not so nice part of town (which, maybe, has led me to be less forgiving of trumped up psycho-bable), but frankly, I know people that lost family that day and that is worthy of some serious consideration. But simply witnessing it from 35 blocks away on the NYU campus is just not convincing from my point of view. So I'm sorry, but on this point, you and I differ and I believe that, even on TLS, we are allowed to not agree.


No one is objecting to your point, just your unfortunate and curious way of expressing it.

User avatar
danidancer
Posts: 841
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:46 pm

Re: School expectations

Postby danidancer » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:52 pm

Back to the OP's original question...

Take from this what you will, but I thought I would post since we seem to have similar numbers/backgrounds. I was a dance major (BA, not BFA) in college with a 3.45/168. I was accepted to every school I applied to from WUSTL on down, and WL by: USC, UCLA, Vandy, Gtown, Cornell, Northwestern, Michigan, and Columbia. I ultimately was accepted to Cornell off the Reserve List (after being deferred twice, first from the EA pool and again after a 2nd review in February). My application wasn't extraordinary by any means, and I'm not a URM, so I would expect similar-ish results if you score at least a 167 or above. A 170 and you're basically a lock for the T14.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18406
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: School expectations

Postby bk1 » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:56 am

danidancer wrote:Back to the OP's original question...

Take from this what you will, but I thought I would post since we seem to have similar numbers/backgrounds. I was a dance major (BA, not BFA) in college with a 3.45/168. I was accepted to every school I applied to from WUSTL on down, and WL by: USC, UCLA, Vandy, Gtown, Cornell, Northwestern, Michigan, and Columbia. I ultimately was accepted to Cornell off the Reserve List (after being deferred twice, first from the EA pool and again after a 2nd review in February). My application wasn't extraordinary by any means, and I'm not a URM, so I would expect similar-ish results if you score at least a 167 or above. A 170 and you're basically a lock for the T14.


I definitely wouldn't expect similar results. A 167 is pretty much locked out of the T14. A 168 has a chance at Cornell and a 169 has a chance at Michigan. Assuming sub-median GPA, I really don't think anything other than 170 is really that safe for the T14.

User avatar
danidancer
Posts: 841
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:46 pm

Re: School expectations

Postby danidancer » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:05 am

bk1 wrote:
danidancer wrote:Back to the OP's original question...

Take from this what you will, but I thought I would post since we seem to have similar numbers/backgrounds. I was a dance major (BA, not BFA) in college with a 3.45/168. I was accepted to every school I applied to from WUSTL on down, and WL by: USC, UCLA, Vandy, Gtown, Cornell, Northwestern, Michigan, and Columbia. I ultimately was accepted to Cornell off the Reserve List (after being deferred twice, first from the EA pool and again after a 2nd review in February). My application wasn't extraordinary by any means, and I'm not a URM, so I would expect similar-ish results if you score at least a 167 or above. A 170 and you're basically a lock for the T14.


I definitely wouldn't expect similar results. A 167 is pretty much locked out of the T14. A 168 has a chance at Cornell and a 169 has a chance at Michigan. Assuming sub-median GPA, I really don't think anything other than 170 is really that safe for the T14.


We're saying the same thing. When I said "similar" I meant that OP, without at least a 170, should expect a bunch of waitlists/rejections from the T14 but will probably be in from WUSTL on down. I'm still shocked I managed Cornell - I was sure the 2nd deferral was a kiss of death, and had actually already deposited at Fordham when the acceptance finally came through in late May.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: School expectations

Postby 09042014 » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:08 am

I don't think many schools will hold being a NYU grad against you.

motiontodismiss
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:36 pm

Re: School expectations

Postby motiontodismiss » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:57 am

Another fellow NYU Grad (CAS though) here. T20: 168 and T14: 170 and T10: 172.

5 years WE+3.52 from Tisch+170 and up=in at NU ED, I think.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bearedman8 and 4 guests