Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

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cowgirl_bebop
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby cowgirl_bebop » Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:58 am

MTal wrote:
cowgirl_bebop wrote:
MTal wrote:
StrictlyLiable wrote:Sorry, but it doesn't really serve your intended purpose of discouraging me.


Of course not. You're a unique snowflake for whom things will work out differently.

Im with StrictlyLiable.

Who knows what the job market will be like in 2014 when I get out of law school? It might be better, or it might be worse. But its a risk Im willing to take. One sob story about a guy who cannot find a job, even at a good school, is surely not enough to derail my career plans. Everyone knows that you are not promised a job upon graduation. If you go into law school thinking that you are, then you are in for a RUDE awakening after 3 years.


So you're willing to gamble over 100k on the off chance that things will be different in 3 years? If you miss the biglaw boat, your chances of getting a job which will enable you to pay off loans within a reasonable amount of time are minimal.


You are assuming that I will be taking on 100K in debt, while I have no intention of doing anything of the sort. And yes, I AM willing to gamble 3 years of my life. If it pays off, the rewards will be well worth it. Im a finance major, so WORST case scenario I go to work for some investment bank like I had planned before I decided to go to law school. I know all about risk analysis, and Im used to trying to time the market. Its a choice I made a long time ago, and its a choice Im going to stick to.

If you are so adverse to going to law school and taking that chance, Im wondering why you are on a site for people thinking about/attending law school in the first place. You dont seem to keen on the idea.

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djjf39
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby djjf39 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:04 am

kwais wrote:I worry for most of you. Where's the nuance? It is ok to say "This guys story definitely makes you think. Maybe jobs will be hard to find. Nevertheless I think it's a risk I'm willing to take". When you guys act all tough and insult a soon-to-be father who is in a real tough spot, you sound like the sheltered little kids that you are. Good for him for coming up with a possible solution and going for it. Will it work? Probably not. However, in law, in life, in everything, it's necessary to consider both sides.



Considering both sides is fine. Wallowing in self-pity b/c of a poor decision you made is not. He is going to be a dad, step-up and grab hold of some responsibility and start doing something more constructive than writing a bitch/guilt trip letter to the dean of your school. Writing that letter may have made that guy feel better, and if so good for him, but it is also an exercise in futility; unless all he wanted is attention and sympathy then maybe it wasn't so futile.

Oh, FYI I don't think anyone would look at my life and say I have been sheltered from jack shit.

QandAphorism
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby QandAphorism » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:08 am

ITT people like to generalize.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:14 am

I do agree with Mtal.

People going into law school have set their expectations too high. Even the people that are aware of the poor economy do this. I mean, I'm a 2L interning with the federal government and I'm working with a 3L from a rival school and 2 class of 2010 law school graduates. Those two individuals are not being paid for their services but are counted as "employed" by their law school. If they do not report their salaries, then there is another injustice being committed - this time to prospective students.

I highly suggest that you go to law school tuition free (or close) and/or have a family connection job lined up after graduation (a family connection summer job is different than a family connection job-job).

I also suggest that you:
1. Not attend a school that ranks students
2. Attend a school with a really high curve

However, the only schools that really do this are T14s + Vanderbilt.

Go figure.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby Blindmelon » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:14 am

CanadianWolf wrote:And the letter writer law student should get an increase in his teaching pay due to his advanced degree if he decides to return to teaching. Many private prep schools hire qualified teachers that also have law degrees.


Yea, but it doesn't count in place of a M.Ed. For private school yea, but if you teach at public school you're SOL because they won't count it. At least in NYC public schools.

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paratactical
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby paratactical » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:21 am

I think the solution is clear.

--ImageRemoved--

CanadianWolf
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:35 am

Isn't the OP's (TaxGuy's) son heading to law school this Fall ?

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MTal
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby MTal » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:54 pm

The sky is falling.

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im_blue
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby im_blue » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:55 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:I also suggest that you:
1. Not attend a school that ranks students
2. Attend a school with a really high curve

Not sure what ranking students has to do with OCI, since firms know what GPAs they're looking for from each school.

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djjf39
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby djjf39 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:00 pm

MTal wrote:The sky is falling.



Evidently you are not alone in thinking so, at least one other being does too.

http://www.maniacworld.com/cats-first-snowfall.html

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby D. H2Oman » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:01 pm

lol nice try by this BC 3L, creative. Shouldn't get his money back of course, but maybe a gold star and a 26K/year job teaching middle school.

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bk1
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby bk1 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:01 pm

I'm too lazy to read this thread but didn't this guy apply in 2007/2008? It sucks for him but I really don't think that he was being misled at the time. It sucks but it isn't really the deans fault.

If somebody were to make this decision now, I could see the argument that they were being misled (as law schools do inflate their job prospects), but due to the amount of information out there on this it really is on the applicant to do more research.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:02 pm

The law student is not being reasonable unless he was assured of gainful employment as an attorney upon graduation prior to enrolling.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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im_blue
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby im_blue » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:02 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:lol nice try by this BC 3L, creative. Shouldn't get his money back of course, but maybe a gold star and a 26K/year job teaching middle school.

not a bad idea, since teachers are eligible for IBR

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let/them/eat/cake
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby let/them/eat/cake » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:04 pm

cowgirl_bebop wrote:
cowgirl_bebop wrote:
MTal wrote:
StrictlyLiable wrote:Sorry, but it doesn't really serve your intended purpose of discouraging me.


Of course not. You're a unique snowflake for whom things will work out differently.

Im with StrictlyLiable.

Who knows what the job market will be like in 2014 when I get out of law school? It might be better, or it might be worse. But its a risk Im willing to take. One sob story about a guy who cannot find a job, even at a good school, is surely not enough to derail my career plans. Everyone knows that you are not promised a job upon graduation. If you go into law school thinking that you are, then you are in for a RUDE awakening after 3 years.


You are assuming that I will be taking on 100K in debt, while I have no intention of doing anything of the sort. And yes, I AM willing to gamble 3 years of my life. If it pays off, the rewards will be well worth it. Im a finance major, so WORST case scenario I go to work for some investment bank like I had planned before I decided to go to law school. I know all about risk analysis, and Im used to trying to time the market. Its a choice I made a long time ago, and its a choice Im going to stick to.

If you are so adverse to going to law school and taking that chance, Im wondering why you are on a site for people thinking about/attending law school in the first place. You dont seem to keen on the idea.



lulz. lovin this shit.

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djjf39
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby djjf39 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:06 pm

Did you hear the Beib got into a brawl laser-tagging? Allegedly punched a 10yro in the head while his entourage escorted him out.

Sorry your avatar distracted me

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby D. H2Oman » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:06 pm

cowgirl_bebop wrote:
MTal wrote:
StrictlyLiable wrote:Sorry, but it doesn't really serve your intended purpose of discouraging me.


Of course not. You're a unique snowflake for whom things will work out differently.

Im with StrictlyLiable.

Who knows what the job market will be like in 2014 when I get out of law school? It might be better, or it might be worse. But its a risk Im willing to take. One sob story about a guy who cannot find a job, even at a good school, is surely not enough to derail my career plans. Everyone knows that you are not promised a job upon graduation. If you go into law school thinking that you are, then you are in for a RUDE awakening after 3 years.



You have much less time for the job market to recover than you realize.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby D. H2Oman » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:07 pm

djjf39 wrote:Did you hear the Beib got into a brawl laser-tagging? Allegedly punched a 10yro in the head while his entourage escorted him out.

Sorry your avatar distracted me



Bro, it was self defense. He kept pressing him bro.

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im_blue
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby im_blue » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:08 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:
cowgirl_bebop wrote:
MTal wrote:
StrictlyLiable wrote:Sorry, but it doesn't really serve your intended purpose of discouraging me.


Of course not. You're a unique snowflake for whom things will work out differently.

Im with StrictlyLiable.

Who knows what the job market will be like in 2014 when I get out of law school? It might be better, or it might be worse. But its a risk Im willing to take. One sob story about a guy who cannot find a job, even at a good school, is surely not enough to derail my career plans. Everyone knows that you are not promised a job upon graduation. If you go into law school thinking that you are, then you are in for a RUDE awakening after 3 years.



You have much less time for the job market to recover than you realize.

+1. Current 0Ls will be doing OCI in Fall 2012, less than 2 years from now.

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goosey
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby goosey » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:11 pm

does he realize that he alone not being factored into their employment statistics will not give them any type of rankings jump?

so basically, his proposition benefits the dean in no way

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im_blue
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby im_blue » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:12 pm

goosey wrote:does he realize that he alone not being factored into their employment statistics will not give them any type of rankings jump?

so basically, his proposition benefits the dean in no way

in addition he would hurt their attrition rate because he'd be a dropout

savagecheater
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby savagecheater » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:15 pm

Nightrunner wrote:1. People should not go to law school expecting things to just work out for them. You can't get a refund on your BA in Art History just because there are no jobs for BAs in Art History.

2. Do your damn homework. Know what you are getting yourself into.

3. Law schools need - as a whole - to provide more transparent employment outcome statistics. Much of what is advertised is only partially-true, and in some cases completely wrong. I recommend every 0L on earth check out this website: http://www.lawschooltransparency.com.

I cannot stress this highly enough. The vast majority of applicants lack the math skills and demeanor to properly interpret what salary ranges mean. Let's take a quick look:

quick look wrote:We'll start with a good school, like GW (LinkRemoved). What do the private practice salary quartiles look like? 145K/160K/160K. Awesome -- great news. What does that mean? It means that those are the salary quartiles of 62.8% (presumably the top 62.8%) of the Class of 2008. A full 33% of GW co2008 salaries are not known. What happened to those people? What do they do? How much do they make? No idea.

Will that group grow larger in a worse hiring economy? Almost certainly.

Now, take a school like Michigan State (LinkRemoved). They report quartiles of 45K/70K/100K, and the average math-disinclined 0L thinks, "oh shit, I can be median and still land a $70,000/year job!" As the great Lee Corso once said, "not so fast, my friend."

Those salary quartiles represent 15.7% of the MSU Class of 2008. FIFTEEN PERCENT. A whopping 74% of Michigan State Law graduates (from the Class of 2008) do not have reported salary data. Are some of them presumably working for the government, or in tiny law offices? Probably. But with three-quarters of their class (in a better hiring economy) not reporting salary, you can bet your ass a good number of them are working their way up to manage the local Starbucks (only with an insurmountable debt).

Before TLS gets all elitist on us here, 15% of Harvard's class of 2008 did not report salary data. 30% of Berkeley's class is not included in the salary quartiles, and 21% do not have known salaries at all. This was in a better hiring market.


To those of you thinking of applying to law school, I urge you to do the following:

1. Don't listen to any asshole who says the sky is falling, and don't listen to any foolish prick who is positive everything will work out. They are both unrealistic (although, in all honesty, the "sky is falling" asshole is being slightly more realistic).

2. Do some thorough homework. This doesn't mean reading the viewbooks. It means finding sites like lawschooltransparency, or doing your own numbers. Realize that there is zero indication that hiring patterns will get significantly better in the next five years.

3. After you have informed yourself, then make your choice. Once you have made your choice, don't bitch about it.


This is probably as credited as it gets.

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bostlaw
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby bostlaw » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:19 pm

I know the economy is in the dumps, but is it really this bad? Not going to base the decesion of 3 yrs of my life off of one letter, but it does make me worry a bit. I really would like to go to BC, but this letter makes it seem like its impossible to get a job. Whats the truth?

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bk1
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby bk1 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:22 pm

bostlaw wrote:I know the economy is in the dumps, but is it really this bad? Not going to base the decesion of 3 yrs of my life off of one letter, but it does make me worry a bit. I really would like to go to BC, but this letter makes it seem like its impossible to get a job. Whats the truth?


It is fucking difficult for everyone ITE. Ask 2L/3L BU/BC students on this board and they can give you a more accurate picture of what it's like.

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djjf39
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby djjf39 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:23 pm

bostlaw wrote:Whats the truth?


The only truth is there is no Truth.

Oh, and God is dead.

Realistically, while generalizations are useful your employment prospects will depend in large part on you + your 1L LS grades, your LS, your market of choice, your career aspirations, and if you have any "ins".




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