Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

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TCScrutinizer
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby TCScrutinizer » Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:44 am

Someone failed their 1L Contracts class.

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jbarl1
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby jbarl1 » Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:58 am

TCScrutinizer wrote:Someone failed their 1L Contracts class.


If you're referring to me, I am a 1L and haven't taken contracts yet. I probably should have mentioned this initially, but the only reason I said he would lose his email privileges is because we have been having issues with people abusing the email system and sending mass messages about nothing at all. The school has given repeated warnings and has vowed to revoke email-sending privileges from those who continue to abuse the mass-email feature. The subject of his email was "Before my email privileges are revoked completely." I was just trying to say that I think it was pretty stupid of someone to send that out to everyone at the school, faculty and staff included, when it is so negative and there have been so many issues with the use of the forum.

r6_philly
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby r6_philly » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:32 am

AnthonyNicator wrote:elmo with his non-pcness. i still think the most entertaining part of this thread was nightrunner part. lol. besdies who gives a fuck what people on TLS think, they're obviously not fucking omnipotent or know shit, otherwise they'd be out making money with that knowledge instead of pontificating on a website.


Have you considered the possibility that some people are doing both at the same time?

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robotclubmember
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby robotclubmember » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:57 am

Sinra wrote:I have never experienced more people telling me what a bad idea law school is except for those that have been attorneys for some time and some currently in law school. As soon as they heard "law school" I was bombarded with "it's horrible out there,"
"they make you work brutal hours," and "I would discourage anyone from going to law school."

I have never encountered a profession/education where so many fucking people seem invested in telling me NOT to do it--after, of course--they've gone ahead and done it. I feel, and I could be completely wrong, more and more that in spite of the realities of the economy, most of these people are more invested in keeping the competition down or in keeping themselves above the riff raff by earning an advanced degree not everyone can have or afford. Paranoid? Maybe. But it seems to be my experience.

Now, one of these is in BigLaw and he works hard, but not that hard. Some nights until 9, some weekends. But hardly slave labor. I worked retail. More hellish hours, much less pay. I've worked 70 hours a week including overnights for the pleasure of a $250 paycheck. Bring on 70-80 hours with better pay. I can work. Hard. Another is a lawyer married to a lawyer. They own four homes, do fine for themselves--make lots of money, work hard, have nice things. And the last one is a prosecutor, making decent money. Yet they ALL spend their time with me telling me what a terrible, awful idea it is to go to law school. In the back of my mind I always wonder why the fuck they're so damn invested. They didn't give a shit when I was getting a worthless liberal arts degree.

I'm not sure what the aim or purpose is in so many so vocally denouncing an education in law as a waste. 90% of degrees are a waste. I didn't realize the market for psychology B.A. graduates, or Women's Studies graduates, or even worthwhile degrees like Accounting are busting at the seams with jobs as compared to law!

IMO, it's bad EVERYWHERE, in EVERY industry. It's not easy to get a job at a (unionized) factory, or at the local plant. It's not easy to get a job in retail. Or in fabled medicine. Do you know how many hospitals have closed? They are experiencing a glut of overqualified nurses, doctors, and medical staff. Every position listed gets dozens, if not hundreds of resumes.

Any post-graduate degree comes with financial risk. Law is no different. To me? I'm just glad I was so poor for so long. Even if I end up 200K in debt and have to work as waiter again and live in a tiny apartment, ain't no thang. I can handle it.


You're right. It isn't easy to get a job at the local plant. But odds are, if you go to anything outside of a Tier 1 school, your investment in law school will not pay off. Those plant workers don't have $150K of debt. That makes law pretty fucking different. Look man, lots of people want to be professional baseball players. The thing about the legal market is, those people who are "paranoid" are just the ones who have seen the reality and are telling you "Look. There are a couple hundred people who get to play in the big leagues. A couple thousand in the minor leagues. And there are 60,000 of you applicants who think baseball is your destiny in life. This is a numbers game and you need to be realistic." You think you're the exception. Everyone thinks that they are the exception. All 60,000 of them. Now, if you are Barry Bonds, don't stay out of baseball because of the ridiculously over-saturated pool of competition. Because most of them suck and just don't see it yet. But if you're not Barry Bonds, you need to be realistic now before you throw yourself down a hole you can't climb out of. The problem with the guy who wrote the letter to the dean is, he probably spent his whole life (and probably still is) convinced that he is the Barry Bonds of the legal profession. And he's being a butt-hurt, whiny bitch now that people are telling him he's not.

People aren't paranoid, it is reality that this is a difficult environment for the legal profession. It's not just "bad EVERYWHERE" as you say. People telling you to stay out of law are just a counterbalance to law school's self-reported (and fudged) employment numbers, a counterbalance that you should like, uh, listen to, man. Boston College reports that 97% of its graduates had a job within 9 months of graduation. The problem with their statistics is that, they don't make a distinction between part-time and full-time, legal and non-legal. If I went to BC Law and got a job at Starbucks, I would count as "employed." But their salary data DOES discriminate, public, private, and gov't. They do not report non-legal or part-time salaries. So they mix apples and oranges to basically lie to you about your employment prospects. BC reports that in 2009, the MEDIAN private sector salary was $160,000. Do you really believe that? And who is to say that for everyone one person who got that salary, there weren't 20 who went into public for a more realistic median of $35,000? Or hell, even went to Starbucks?

The problem is, everyone who wants to go to law school insists their "heart is set on it." That it's the best idea they have ever had. Most of these people are people who never acquire any work experience before matriculating into law school, which makes it even weirder. They have no idea what they really want and no "real world" skills. I actually really wanted to do law, but am deciding to do JD/MBA and remain in business, because the market is saturated with too many people who don't really know what they want. I'll leave the door open to law because maybe it will work out, and I'd like it, but with a numbers game like this, we have to be realistic... which people like you are refusing to do. I don't understand why you think you know so much more about your employment prospects than the scores of people in the profession who will tell you otherwise. That's just hubris. And those who do get into the "big leagues" often complain of being miserable anyway.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby robotclubmember » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:13 am

And Keanu as Spike? Ridiculous. He does have some martial arts skills though. And looks similar. But I'd rather have an actor that looks vaguely similar and really captures the feel than feels vaguely similar and really captures the look.

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paratactical
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby paratactical » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:17 am

robotclubmember wrote:And Keanu as Spike? Ridiculous. He does have some martial arts skills though. And looks similar. But I'd rather have an actor that looks vaguely similar and really captures the feel than feels vaguely similar and really captures the look.

Afukkinmen

adonai
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby adonai » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:42 pm

robotclubmember wrote:
Sinra wrote:I have never experienced more people telling me what a bad idea law school is except for those that have been attorneys for some time and some currently in law school. As soon as they heard "law school" I was bombarded with "it's horrible out there,"
"they make you work brutal hours," and "I would discourage anyone from going to law school."

I have never encountered a profession/education where so many fucking people seem invested in telling me NOT to do it--after, of course--they've gone ahead and done it. I feel, and I could be completely wrong, more and more that in spite of the realities of the economy, most of these people are more invested in keeping the competition down or in keeping themselves above the riff raff by earning an advanced degree not everyone can have or afford. Paranoid? Maybe. But it seems to be my experience.

Now, one of these is in BigLaw and he works hard, but not that hard. Some nights until 9, some weekends. But hardly slave labor. I worked retail. More hellish hours, much less pay. I've worked 70 hours a week including overnights for the pleasure of a $250 paycheck. Bring on 70-80 hours with better pay. I can work. Hard. Another is a lawyer married to a lawyer. They own four homes, do fine for themselves--make lots of money, work hard, have nice things. And the last one is a prosecutor, making decent money. Yet they ALL spend their time with me telling me what a terrible, awful idea it is to go to law school. In the back of my mind I always wonder why the fuck they're so damn invested. They didn't give a shit when I was getting a worthless liberal arts degree.

I'm not sure what the aim or purpose is in so many so vocally denouncing an education in law as a waste. 90% of degrees are a waste. I didn't realize the market for psychology B.A. graduates, or Women's Studies graduates, or even worthwhile degrees like Accounting are busting at the seams with jobs as compared to law!

IMO, it's bad EVERYWHERE, in EVERY industry. It's not easy to get a job at a (unionized) factory, or at the local plant. It's not easy to get a job in retail. Or in fabled medicine. Do you know how many hospitals have closed? They are experiencing a glut of overqualified nurses, doctors, and medical staff. Every position listed gets dozens, if not hundreds of resumes.

Any post-graduate degree comes with financial risk. Law is no different. To me? I'm just glad I was so poor for so long. Even if I end up 200K in debt and have to work as waiter again and live in a tiny apartment, ain't no thang. I can handle it.


You're right. It isn't easy to get a job at the local plant. But odds are, if you go to anything outside of a Tier 1 school, your investment in law school will not pay off. Those plant workers don't have $150K of debt. That makes law pretty fucking different. Look man, lots of people want to be professional baseball players. The thing about the legal market is, those people who are "paranoid" are just the ones who have seen the reality and are telling you "Look. There are a couple hundred people who get to play in the big leagues. A couple thousand in the minor leagues. And there are 60,000 of you applicants who think baseball is your destiny in life. This is a numbers game and you need to be realistic." You think you're the exception. Everyone thinks that they are the exception. All 60,000 of them. Now, if you are Barry Bonds, don't stay out of baseball because of the ridiculously over-saturated pool of competition. Because most of them suck and just don't see it yet. But if you're not Barry Bonds, you need to be realistic now before you throw yourself down a hole you can't climb out of. The problem with the guy who wrote the letter to the dean is, he probably spent his whole life (and probably still is) convinced that he is the Barry Bonds of the legal profession. And he's being a butt-hurt, whiny bitch now that people are telling him he's not.

People aren't paranoid, it is reality that this is a difficult environment for the legal profession. It's not just "bad EVERYWHERE" as you say. People telling you to stay out of law are just a counterbalance to law school's self-reported (and fudged) employment numbers, a counterbalance that you should like, uh, listen to, man. Boston College reports that 97% of its graduates had a job within 9 months of graduation. The problem with their statistics is that, they don't make a distinction between part-time and full-time, legal and non-legal. If I went to BC Law and got a job at Starbucks, I would count as "employed." But their salary data DOES discriminate, public, private, and gov't. They do not report non-legal or part-time salaries. So they mix apples and oranges to basically lie to you about your employment prospects. BC reports that in 2009, the MEDIAN private sector salary was $160,000. Do you really believe that? And who is to say that for everyone one person who got that salary, there weren't 20 who went into public for a more realistic median of $35,000? Or hell, even went to Starbucks?

The problem is, everyone who wants to go to law school insists their "heart is set on it." That it's the best idea they have ever had. Most of these people are people who never acquire any work experience before matriculating into law school, which makes it even weirder. They have no idea what they really want and no "real world" skills. I actually really wanted to do law, but am deciding to do JD/MBA and remain in business, because the market is saturated with too many people who don't really know what they want. I'll leave the door open to law because maybe it will work out, and I'd like it, but with a numbers game like this, we have to be realistic... which people like you are refusing to do. I don't understand why you think you know so much more about your employment prospects than the scores of people in the profession who will tell you otherwise. That's just hubris. And those who do get into the "big leagues" often complain of being miserable anyway.

0L gunner ftw! Who wants to resolve the paradox?
Last edited by adonai on Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gaucho
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby Gaucho » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:49 pm

yeah i saw this video on CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/201 ... =allsearch


you won't catch me sending an app to BC

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beachbum
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby beachbum » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:53 pm

Gaucho wrote:yeah i saw this video on CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/201 ... =allsearch


you won't catch me sending an app to BC


I love how they found students at New England Law to comment on the letter. The irony is palpable.

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joemoviebuff
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby joemoviebuff » Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:35 pm

beachbum wrote:
Gaucho wrote:yeah i saw this video on CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/201 ... =allsearch


you won't catch me sending an app to BC


I love how they found students at New England Law to comment on the letter. The irony is palpable.


Especially the guy who's all "there's no guarantee of a job after graduation, you just have to try hard and let the cards fall where they may..." I wonder if he might be a little more resentful in a year or two. Of course there is no guarantee, and they can "only provide the best education possible," but at what that education costs the students should have better chances of getting a job than they do right now. Has any law school actually decreased the cost of tuition since ITE?

Aqualibrium
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby Aqualibrium » Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:41 pm

joemoviebuff wrote:
beachbum wrote:
Gaucho wrote:yeah i saw this video on CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/201 ... =allsearch


you won't catch me sending an app to BC


I love how they found students at New England Law to comment on the letter. The irony is palpable.


Especially the guy who's all "there's no guarantee of a job after graduation, you just have to try hard and let the cards fall where they may..." I wonder if he might be a little more resentful in a year or two. Of course there is no guarantee, and they can "only provide the best education possible," but at what that education costs the students should have better chances of getting a job than they do right now. Has any law school actually decreased the cost of tuition since ITE?


Why would they? They can easily find sheeple that don't mind applying to T2's with their sub 3 gpa's who are willing to take out 160k in loans because they just "know" they want to be a lawyer, and "love the law."

BCLS
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby BCLS » Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:16 am

I'm tempted to try and find this guy and out him. I'd love to know his class rank.

BCLS
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby BCLS » Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:19 am

And ita funny that they have New England School of Flaw commenting. If BC is having trouble finding grads jobs NESL students should just quit while they can.

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joemoviebuff
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby joemoviebuff » Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:25 am

Why would they? They can easily find sheeple that don't mind applying to T2's with their sub 3 gpa's who are willing to take out 160k in loans because they just "know" they want to be a lawyer, and "love the law."


(Insert that meme of Captain Picard facepalming.)

Aqualibrium
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:05 am

joemoviebuff wrote:
Why would they? They can easily find sheeple that don't mind applying to T2's with their sub 3 gpa's who are willing to take out 160k in loans because they just "know" they want to be a lawyer, and "love the law."


(Insert that meme of Captain Picard facepalming.)


Don't get the reference....poster I quoted asked if law schools had lowered their tuition ITE. My response seems pretty on point.

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joemoviebuff
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby joemoviebuff » Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:04 am

Aqualibrium wrote:
joemoviebuff wrote:
Why would they? They can easily find sheeple that don't mind applying to T2's with their sub 3 gpa's who are willing to take out 160k in loans because they just "know" they want to be a lawyer, and "love the law."


(Insert that meme of Captain Picard facepalming.)


Don't get the reference....poster I quoted asked if law schools had lowered their tuition ITE. My response seems pretty on point.


http://www.lolblog.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/facepalm.jpg, which was not geared towards your response, but rather the "sheeple" you mention.

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TCScrutinizer
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby TCScrutinizer » Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:15 am

jbarl1 wrote:
TCScrutinizer wrote:Someone failed their 1L Contracts class.


If you're referring to me, I am a 1L and haven't taken contracts yet. I probably should have mentioned this initially, but the only reason I said he would lose his email privileges is because we have been having issues with people abusing the email system and sending mass messages about nothing at all. The school has given repeated warnings and has vowed to revoke email-sending privileges from those who continue to abuse the mass-email feature. The subject of his email was "Before my email privileges are revoked completely." I was just trying to say that I think it was pretty stupid of someone to send that out to everyone at the school, faculty and staff included, when it is so negative and there have been so many issues with the use of the forum.


Nah, I was referring to the 3L who wrote the letter.

As my Ks professor is fond of saying, "just because it turns out you made a bad contract doesn't mean you have a right to get out of it."

Maybe he's been trying to warn us.

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jbarl1
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby jbarl1 » Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:16 am

TCScrutinizer wrote:
jbarl1 wrote:
TCScrutinizer wrote:Someone failed their 1L Contracts class.


If you're referring to me, I am a 1L and haven't taken contracts yet. I probably should have mentioned this initially, but the only reason I said he would lose his email privileges is because we have been having issues with people abusing the email system and sending mass messages about nothing at all. The school has given repeated warnings and has vowed to revoke email-sending privileges from those who continue to abuse the mass-email feature. The subject of his email was "Before my email privileges are revoked completely." I was just trying to say that I think it was pretty stupid of someone to send that out to everyone at the school, faculty and staff included, when it is so negative and there have been so many issues with the use of the forum.


Nah, I was referring to the 3L who wrote the letter.

As my Ks professor is fond of saying, "just because it turns out you made a bad contract doesn't mean you have a right to get out of it."

Maybe he's been trying to warn us.


Sounds like a smart professor...he'll be the one saying, "I told you so" to all of his unemployed students at graduation.

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bostlaw
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby bostlaw » Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:23 pm

Gaucho wrote:yeah i saw this video on CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/201 ... =allsearch


you won't catch me sending an app to BC



good call, because that is where the employment problem is isolated and all

Aqualibrium
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Re: Letter to BC dean by 3L student.

Postby Aqualibrium » Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:28 pm

I don't like how literally everyone is taking this letter...




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