3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

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romothesavior
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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:03 am

I hate posting three times in a row in one thread, and I am fairly certain you are a flame, but I just have to tackle this post. If I don't, then prospective applicants will be led astray by bad advice, and then... the terrorists win.

There are plenty of successful people who DIDN'T get into a top 30 school. If you are applying based soley on rankings, you shouldn't be applying. That's common sense. Plenty of important political figures didn't even attend a top 30.

This is awful logic. The fact that we can snag a few anecdotal political figures who didn't attend top law schools says NOTHING. We have hard data showing the immense disparity in job prospects between people at lower ranked schools and higher ranked schools. Any school with a 150 LSAT median is going to be putting less than a quarter of their students into legal jobs. You'd be lucky to score a 30k/year job from some of these tier 3/tier 4 schools. That is just a fact.

Odds are, unless something affected your score in a way you can pinpoint (did you not study very much? have you been ill?), you won't score much higher the second time around.

There is a poster on this board who scored like a 154 the first time around and then got a 170+ and is now at Northwestern. And there are plenty of others just like him. It is doable.

If you take it again, the way your scoring has gone, all the seats will be taken by the time you do apply this cycle. If you wait until next year, you'll be out an entire year's worth and two years until you finally go.

So rushing into a decision that involves soul-crushing debt and horrific job prospects is better than waiting a year to work hard, re-take the LSAT, and reassess your goals?

You stand a better chance at applying with an average LSAT early in the cycle. You'll still get into a good school (the term 'good' is relative, but more skewed when you are a prick) and get a solid education at a lower-ranked school--and remember, the ABA doesn't rank schools, magazines do.

This isn't about rankings. Screw the rankings, I don't give a shit about them. This is about employment prospects. There are almost twice as many graduates every year as there are jobs. Who do you think those jobs are going to? Ave Maria? Cooley? Think again. A third or fourth (or even second) tier school is not going to offer very good job prospects for the overwhelming number of their students. Unlike you, I am actually in law school and I know a thing or two about the state of the profession. Things are BLEAK right now. I have a pretty good scholarship to a T20 law school, and I can tell you that I am nervous as shit about getting a job right now.
There are also ways to score interviews that can help your chances, if you have enough initiative.

False. I can only think of two law schools that interview.

And, there is always the possibility of transferring to a more reputable institution after the first year, if you feel it will serve your career.

Do you have any fucking idea how hard law school is? Transferring up to a more reputable school requires you to be in the top of your class. Do you know how hard it is to be in the top of your class when you are surrounded by people of equal or greater ability and you are being graded on a curve?

It is INFINITELY easier to retake the LSAT and score higher than it is to go to a poor school and try to transfer up.

Don't listen to idiots who are just trying to intimidate the competition away.

If people were trying to intimidate the competition away, why would they be telling OP to retake? Wouldn't they be telling him to attend a T3 in order to minimize the competition?


TL;DR version: Even though I am fairly certain you are a flame, you should keep your stupid opinions to yourself. If people listen to this kind of advice, they are potentially screwing their financial and professional future away.

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Grizz
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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby Grizz » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:42 am

the_wanksta36 wrote:Seriously, OP, this bk1 needs to stfu. There are plenty of successful people who DIDN'T get into a top 30 school. If you are applying based soley on rankings, you shouldn't be applying. That's common sense. Plenty of important political figures didn't even attend a top 30.

But... facts are facts. You have a 3.9 in a major that probably won't make you stand out amongst the crowd, and you are scoring in the average range. Odds are, unless something affected your score in a way you can pinpoint (did you not study very much? have you been ill?), you won't score much higher the second time around. If you take it again, the way your scoring has gone, all the seats will be taken by the time you do apply this cycle. If you wait until next year, you'll be out an entire year's worth and two years until you finally go. You stand a better chance at applying with an average LSAT early in the cycle. You'll still get into a good school (the term 'good' is relative, but more skewed when you are a prick) and get a solid education at a lower-ranked school--and remember, the ABA doesn't rank schools, magazines do. Every school is different and the LSAT weighs a lot, but if you have strong soft materials with a high GPA, that can get you into a school that will provide you with a great legal education. There are also ways to score interviews that can help your chances, if you have enough initiative.

And, there is always the possibility of transferring to a more reputable institution after the first year, if you feel it will serve your career. But, you'll soon discover that most people who care about rankings flood message boards and tell you to retake the LSAT until you get a 170. Don't listen to idiots who are just trying to intimidate the competition away.


lol no; you're an ignorant buffoon

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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby edubs003 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:39 am

romothesavior wrote:Also, please don't listen to people with <100 posts who know ZILCH about law school, the admissions process, or the job market.

the_wanksta and edubs have NO idea WTF they are talking about.


Wow! I've just joined this website but since I have under 100 posts I must have no idea what I'm talking about? I've read plenty of books on the subject. Going to a T14 would be great but this person can still apply to some schools this time around. Looks like you don't know what you're talking about. Just because you've posted more on top-law-schools.com doesn't make you any more of an authority on the subject. And if going to a top 30 law school means dealing with pretentious assholes like yourself and the other people posting, count me out.

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Deuce
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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby Deuce » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:43 am


I've read plenty of books on the subject.

:lol:

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Ragged
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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby Ragged » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:05 am

rad law wrote:Retake.

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nealric
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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby nealric » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:10 am

edubs003 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Also, please don't listen to people with <100 posts who know ZILCH about law school, the admissions process, or the job market.

the_wanksta and edubs have NO idea WTF they are talking about.


Wow! I've just joined this website but since I have under 100 posts I must have no idea what I'm talking about? I've read plenty of books on the subject. Going to a T14 would be great but this person can still apply to some schools this time around. Looks like you don't know what you're talking about. Just because you've posted more on top-law-schools.com doesn't make you any more of an authority on the subject. And if going to a top 30 law school means dealing with pretentious assholes like yourself and the other people posting, count me out.


But did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

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romothesavior
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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:39 am

edubs003 wrote:Wow! I've just joined this website but since I have under 100 posts I must have no idea what I'm talking about? I've read plenty of books on the subject. Going to a T14 would be great but this person can still apply to some schools this time around. Looks like you don't know what you're talking about. Just because you've posted more on top-law-schools.com doesn't make you any more of an authority on the subject. And if going to a top 30 law school means dealing with pretentious assholes like yourself and the other people posting, count me out.

I'm sorry, but when you say things like this:

I disagree with you on the 150's. Plenty of people have gone to good schools with 150's. Now if it wasn't the OPs best then they should retake it. Why not apply to 5 schools? And if they want to go Miami, thats a T2 and its possible that they can get it. Not everyone with a good GPA/LSAT wants to go to T14 schools.


... it shows how little you know about the legal market and legal economy. A T2 at sticker is a pretty bad idea. Hell, I'd even say that going to my school (a T20) at sticker in this economy is a terrible decision. Please, check some of these websites and articles out and inform yourself on how truly terrible the legal economy is:

http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/law-grads-are-angry
http://www.joannejacobs.com/2010/06/beware-the-law-school-scam/
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2010/06/wake-up-fellow-law-professors-to.html This was written by a prof at WUSTL.
http://www.lawstudent.tv/2007/11/23/most-law-graduates-dissappointed-few-jobs-low-salaries-high-stress/
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html (Northwestern grad moving back in with his parents)

Or you could just go to the employment forum and read about how cheerful things are right now:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=23


Seriously, I am one of the least pretentious people on this site. I go to a pretty mediocre school by TLS standards, and I went to a tiny little undergrad that I'm sure no one on here has heard of. I have no tolerance for pretentiousness, and I certainly have no capacity to be pretentious myself. I actually defend people's decision to go to a T2 or T3 when they do so for the right reasons (going for free, have a job lined up, etc.) What I am saying here has nothing to do with being a jerk or trying to put people down for going to a lower-ranked school. This is about warning a person that they are about to make a colossal mistake if they take the route that you advocate. I don't care how many books you have read; you need to educate yourself on what is going on out there.

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bk1
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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby bk1 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:47 am

Sigh, I always knew Romo was part of the elitist pretentious douchebag elite.

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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby the_wanksta36 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:11 pm

There are ways to score interviews with law schools that don't officially offer them.

Would someone with a 3.9 GPA really struggle to be at the top of a law school class? Law school isn't easy, but it isn't only for geniuses, now is it? Besides, while the ticket price for many T3 law schools is the same, my friends who have gone to them didn't actually pay that. Those schools offered them money. The OP could be blowing many scholarship opportunities. A year to reassess your goals? Admit it, you come from a family with money.

Thanks for the articles on the economy, I had no idea we were in a recession. :roll: I just started posting, so I must know nothing about law school... excuse me while I die of laughter. And the same person had the nerve to lecture ANYONE on logic. Oh well, what can you expect from any self-proclaimed 'savior.'

Hard to believe law school is that hard, yet you have time to needlessly comment again... and again... and again.

If ignorance is bliss, this is Eden.

EDIT: And just because ONE poster claimed to have a score jump 20 points, is no foolish reason to believe it can happen to anyone. It has happened, but read the statistics. The posters on here seem to be all about prestige, OP. Ask anyone with a sense of reality. You'd think our generation would have learned a thing or two from the mistakes of the last.
Last edited by the_wanksta36 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby edubs003 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:13 pm

romothesavior wrote:
edubs003 wrote:Wow! I've just joined this website but since I have under 100 posts I must have no idea what I'm talking about? I've read plenty of books on the subject. Going to a T14 would be great but this person can still apply to some schools this time around. Looks like you don't know what you're talking about. Just because you've posted more on top-law-schools.com doesn't make you any more of an authority on the subject. And if going to a top 30 law school means dealing with pretentious assholes like yourself and the other people posting, count me out.

I'm sorry, but when you say things like this:

I disagree with you on the 150's. Plenty of people have gone to good schools with 150's. Now if it wasn't the OPs best then they should retake it. Why not apply to 5 schools? And if they want to go Miami, thats a T2 and its possible that they can get it. Not everyone with a good GPA/LSAT wants to go to T14 schools.


... it shows how little you know about the legal market and legal economy. A T2 at sticker is a pretty bad idea. Hell, I'd even say that going to my school (a T20) at sticker in this economy is a terrible decision. Please, check some of these websites and articles out and inform yourself on how truly terrible the legal economy is:

http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/law-grads-are-angry
http://www.joannejacobs.com/2010/06/beware-the-law-school-scam/
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2010/06/wake-up-fellow-law-professors-to.html This was written by a prof at WUSTL.
http://www.lawstudent.tv/2007/11/23/most-law-graduates-dissappointed-few-jobs-low-salaries-high-stress/
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html (Northwestern grad moving back in with his parents)

Or you could just go to the employment forum and read about how cheerful things are right now:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=23


Seriously, I am one of the least pretentious people on this site. I go to a pretty mediocre school by TLS standards, and I went to a tiny little undergrad that I'm sure no one on here has heard of. I have no tolerance for pretentiousness, and I certainly have no capacity to be pretentious myself. I actually defend people's decision to go to a T2 or T3 when they do so for the right reasons (going for free, have a job lined up, etc.) What I am saying here has nothing to do with being a jerk or trying to put people down for going to a lower-ranked school. This is about warning a person that they are about to make a colossal mistake if they take the route that you advocate. I don't care how many books you have read; you need to educate yourself on what is going on out there.


It sounds like you are saying that everyone that isn't going to a top 20 (at least with some assistance) is making a huge mistake. There are thousands of people that will go to T2 and T3 schools this year with little assistance. The supply of lawyers has always been a problem and there isn't much demand right now, but we are talking about getting a job 4 years from now. If you can somehow predict that economy, you should be on wall street.

People realize the debt and risk they take when going to these lower schools. In general, there is a risk associated with going to law school. I've already said that she should retake it but applying to 5 schools won't hurt.

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romothesavior
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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:27 pm

edubs003 wrote:It sounds like you are saying that everyone that isn't going to a top 20 (at least with some assistance) is making a huge mistake. There are thousands of people that will go to T2 and T3 schools this year with little assistance. The supply of lawyers has always been a problem and there isn't much demand right now, but we are talking about getting a job 4 years from now. If you can somehow predict that economy, you should be on wall street.


I think even people going to top 20 schools at full-price are making terrible decisions in a lot of cases. I am going to school for less than half the full price of attendance, and I am nervous as hell about my future. There are just so few jobs out there that allow grads to pay off their debts in a reasonable amount of time. This isn't about getting rich or being some big shot lawyer. I'm not in law school to get rich. But I also don't want to be saddled with soul-crushing debt for my entire life, and I doubt anyone else does either.

Also, this has nothing to do with the economy. From the article by my torts professor that I linked above:

Prof. Brian Tamanaha Article wrote:Their complaint is that non-elite law schools are selling a fraudulent bill of goods. Law schools advertise deceptively high rates of employment and misleading income figures. Many graduates can’t get jobs. Many graduates end up as temp attorneys working for $15 to $20 dollars an hour on two week gigs, with no benefits. The luckier graduates land jobs in government or small firms for maybe $45,000, with limited prospects for improvement. A handful of lottery winners score big firm jobs.

And for the opportunity to enter a saturated legal market with long odds against them, the tens of thousands newly minted lawyers who graduate each year from non-elite schools will have paid around $150,000 in tuition and living expenses, and given up three years of income. Many leave law school with well over $100,000 in non-dischargeable debt, obligated to pay $1,000 a month for thirty years.

The dismal situation was not created by the current recession—which merely spread the pain up the chain into the lower reaches of elite schools. This has been going on for years.


See the bolded. This is not something that was caused by the recession, nor is it something that will get better when the recession is over. The prof who wrote this article taught at St. John's for a number of years; he has seen the deception by law schools and the struggles of newly minted grads to find work firsthand.

Not all that long ago, there were about 150 law schools. Even then, there were WAY more graduates than there were jobs. Now, we have over 200 law schools in this country. You could close 100 law schools and we'd still have an oversupply of lawyers. This is not a recession thing, this is a systematic problem brought on by the ABA's unwillingness to regulate the supply and demand and the dishonesty of law schools in their employment prospects.

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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby the_wanksta36 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:32 pm

I'd be scared as shit as you about employment opportunities too, wasting so much time on a forum. I'm starting to think you are obsessed.

That article is written by a professor at St. John's? That's ranked #72. I'm not reading anything unless it comes from an educator from a top 20! Oh crap... your logic is rubbing off on me.

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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:33 pm

the_wanksta36 wrote:I had no idea we were in a recession. :roll:

This has nothing to do with the recession, you nitwit. Read the damn articles I posted. This has been going on for YEARS, and has only been exacerbated by the recession. The horrifying job prospects used to pretty much only affect the non-elite schools, but now the schools at the top are feeling it as well. There are students on this forum who attend top notch schools (schools that you or I could only dream of attending) and even they are struggling to find work. If students at Columbia, Michigan, Northwestern, etc. are having trouble finding a job, how do you think people at Ave Maria and Widener are doing?

Ask anyone with a sense of reality.

Ah yes. Ask someone like "the wanksta" instead of current students, recent graduates, practicing lawyers, etc. What could those people know about the job market that some 0L wouldn't know?

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romothesavior
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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:38 pm

the_wanksta36 wrote:I'd be scared as shit as you about employment opportunities too, wasting so much time on a forum. I'm starting to think you are obsessed.

That article is written by a professor at St. John's? That's ranked #72. I'm not reading anything unless it comes from an educator from a top 20! Oh crap... your logic is rubbing off on me.


The fact that you are just blatantly ignoring what I am saying speaks volumes. The prof teaches at Wash U. He used to teach at St. John's.

You are willfully ignoring the truth. It is like you have no desire to find out anything about which you speak. Fine. You may think I spend too much time on here, but you wanna know why I do it? Because TLS is a wonderful place that has helped me a lot, and I want to pay it forward. I want people to recognize that law school is a major decision and it is not for the faint-hearted. I want people to realize the state of the legal market and make them think long and hard about what they want to do, and I also want to help people get to where they want to be, just like people helped me. Am I an expert? No. But I think the help, advice, and community is what makes TLS great (along with the lulz).

If you want to write off posters like me without even bothering to listen to what we're saying, that's fine. But you are only doing yourself a disservice by convincing yourself that we are just pretentious jerks, rather than stopping and thinking "Hey, maybe these people have a point." I just ask that you keep your idiocy to yourself rather than give people horrific advice that, if followed, could literally destroy their financial lives.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:54 pm

edubs003 wrote: count me out.

Gladly

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Jackson Pollock
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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby Jackson Pollock » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:23 pm

the_wanksta36 wrote:And just because ONE poster claimed to have a score jump 20 points, is no foolish reason to believe it can happen to anyone.


I jumped 14 from my diagnostic.

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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby lolol10 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:28 pm

the_wanksta36 wrote:Seriously, OP, this bk1 needs to stfu. There are plenty of successful people who DIDN'T get into a top 30 school. If you are applying based soley on rankings, you shouldn't be applying. That's common sense. Plenty of important political figures didn't even attend a top 30.


i feel like this is a LR question.

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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby nealric » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:35 pm

Image

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Grizz
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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby Grizz » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:47 pm

the_wanksta36 wrote:And just because ONE poster TTT gradute claimed to have a score jump 20 points salary upwards of $50k, is no foolish reason to believe it can happen to anyone. It has happened, but read the statistics.

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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:54 pm

rad law wrote:
the_wanksta36 wrote:And just because ONE poster TTT gradute claimed to have a score jump 20 points salary upwards of $50k, is no foolish reason to believe it can happen to anyone. It has happened, but read the statistics.

:lol:

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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby beachbum » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:02 pm

So:

*There is nothing wrong with attending a TTT at or near full price.
*Lower-ranked schools are generally filled with less-intelligent people and aren't really that hard.
*Therefore, you might want to plan on transferring (and thus taking the easier, roundabout way to greener pastures).
*But if you don't transfer, you still have a decent shot at securing meaningful, high-paying legal employment. Just do your best, show these schools and employers that you're a unique snowflake, and the rest will sort itself out.
*I know this because I read it in some books. And besides, I can think of some examples of people who graduated from TTTs like 20 years ago and are now raking in the dough.
*TLS regulars are generally elitist assholes who are just trying to scare/intimidate the competition. All they care about is prestige.
*Fuck the evidence to the contrary.

Is that it? Am I missing anything?

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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby lzyovrachievr » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:34 pm

nealric wrote:Image


Damn, you beat me to it.

Oh, but +1 to Romo.
(I'm kinda surprised I just wrote that...)

OP, Give yourself the best shot you can to succeed. Going with a low LSAT score, when you haven't already exhausted the most useful ways to improve that and then improve your future career prospects, is not a smart choice. Look, if that's the best you can do, okay. But you've said that you didn't really study the questions that intensely, so it's worth a real effort. Give it a few months of good study, take again, and if you are still scoring within the range you quoted, I'd be surprised. If you are, and you still want to study law, go where you can get in. If you've improved, then you will have greatly improved your chances for success later. Yes, some people perform well coming out of most every school; however, going to school with lower employment prospects makes the task infinitely harder for you.

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bk1
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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby bk1 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:57 pm

nealric wrote:Image


Sadly it is taking a lot of self-restraint for me not to do this as Romo has done.

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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby the_wanksta36 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:28 pm

The OP said she has been taking practice LSATs. I'm sure she has also improved from her DIAGNOSTICS, but that is irrelevant and not what we are talking about. If she has already been practicing, chances of improvement are slim.

I can't believe there are this many stupid people applying to law school. No wonder so many graduates are up for jobs. Makes me sick that there are so many arrogant fuckers giving such terrible, elitist advice. Funny how people tell others not to rely on written examples for knowledge, but that's what you end up posting as well. Fact remains, several people from tier 3 schools can make a good living, and they couldn't care less what snobs think. Which is, of course, what most of you are. At least own up to it.

The recession has impacted the legal profession, like all professions, and I've known too many lawyers who have suffered from it. But, what you are saying, that there are too many graduates for not enough jobs, is absolutely nothing new. Lawyers have been called 'ambulance chasers' for some time, and that's probably not going to change.

I'm just hoping that the joke is on me and you are all just fucking with me. Otherwise, this whole board is a joke. At least then you're all the same joke and belong together in a room where people can sit and agree with one another.

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nealric
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Re: 3.9 GPA, LSAT ?

Postby nealric » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:32 pm

the_wanksta36 wrote:The OP said she has been taking practice LSATs. I'm sure she has also improved from her DIAGNOSTICS, but that is irrelevant and not what we are talking about. If she has already been practicing, chances of improvement are slim.

I can't believe there are this many stupid people applying to law school. No wonder so many graduates are up for jobs. Makes me sick that there are so many arrogant fuckers giving such terrible, elitist advice. Funny how people tell others not to rely on written examples for knowledge, but that's what you end up posting as well. Fact remains, several people from tier 3 schools can make a good living, and they couldn't care less what snobs think. Which is, of course, what most of you are. At least own up to it.

The recession has impacted the legal profession, like all professions, and I've known too many lawyers who have suffered from it. But, what you are saying, that there are too many graduates for not enough jobs, is absolutely nothing new. Lawyers have been called 'ambulance chasers' for some time, and that's probably not going to change.

I'm just hoping that the joke is on me and you are all just fucking with me. Otherwise, this whole board is a joke. At least then you're all the same joke and belong together in a room where people can sit and agree with one another.


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