Applying with honor code violation

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lucield
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Applying with honor code violation

Postby lucield » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:47 pm

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Last edited by lucield on Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Veyron
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby Veyron » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:58 pm

With 2 instances of dishonesty in college, you are completely and utterly fucked even if you score a 180, no highly ranked school will take you. Best bet if you really want to be a lawyer is work for 5 years or so and get this shit in the past and only then apply.

lucield
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby lucield » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:55 am

yeah, im actually going to work in a company that is slightly off the beaten track, for at least two years, so i'm hoping that helps.

miamiman
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby miamiman » Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:09 am

So, this is a touchy issue. Veyron is speaking completely out of turn when he tells you -- with certainty -- that you're f*cked but there's a decent chance that, absent other considerations (like time off, significant community service, or the like), you'll be summarily rejected from the top 14 or so schools. Not that this is necessarily damning but, in the case that you were gunning for those schools, sorry to (likely) be the bearer of bad news.

From what I understand, and from having an inside view on a few of these cases, the best way to overcome this is to simply own it. Take full responsibility; show that you've separated yourself from the event, both in time and action; solicit recommendations from faculty that can attest to this maturation; do something worthwhile in the community that reflects you are currently of high moral character, even if you erred in the past. That really is all you can do (besides pray, of course).

But, yea, don't make any excuses. They'll already be looking for reasons to deny you for cause on these infactions so don't make their jobs any easier.

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Veyron
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby Veyron » Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:13 am

miamiman wrote:So, this is a touchy issue. Veyron is speaking completely out of turn when he tells you -- with certainty -- that you're f*cked but there's a decent chance that, absent other considerations (like time off, significant community service, or the like), you'll be summarily rejected from the top 14 or so schools. Not that this is necessarily damning but, in the case that you were gunning for those schools, sorry to (likely) be the bearer of bad news.

From what I understand, and from having an inside view on a few of these cases, the best way to overcome this is to simply own it. Take full responsibility; show that you've separated yourself from the event, both in time and action; solicit recommendations from faculty that can attest to this maturation; do something worthwhile in the community that reflects you are currently of high moral character, even if you erred in the past. That really is all you can do (besides pray, of course).

But, yea, don't make any excuses. They'll already be looking for reasons to deny you for cause on these infactions so don't make their jobs any easier.


Summary, Veyron is basicaly right but his language is tres harsh. Noticing an extreme adversion to straightforwardness on this here chatblog.

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IAFG
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:14 am

Veyron wrote:
miamiman wrote:So, this is a touchy issue. Veyron is speaking completely out of turn when he tells you -- with certainty -- that you're f*cked but there's a decent chance that, absent other considerations (like time off, significant community service, or the like), you'll be summarily rejected from the top 14 or so schools. Not that this is necessarily damning but, in the case that you were gunning for those schools, sorry to (likely) be the bearer of bad news.

From what I understand, and from having an inside view on a few of these cases, the best way to overcome this is to simply own it. Take full responsibility; show that you've separated yourself from the event, both in time and action; solicit recommendations from faculty that can attest to this maturation; do something worthwhile in the community that reflects you are currently of high moral character, even if you erred in the past. That really is all you can do (besides pray, of course).

But, yea, don't make any excuses. They'll already be looking for reasons to deny you for cause on these infactions so don't make their jobs any easier.


Summary, Veyron is basicaly right but his language is tres harsh.

eh you underestimate how numbers-whorish some schools are.

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Chris_cpb
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby Chris_cpb » Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:21 am

Veyron wrote:With 2 instances of dishonesty in college, you are completely and utterly fucked even if you score a 180, no highly ranked school will take you. Best bet if you really want to be a lawyer is work for 5 years or so and get this shit in the past and only then apply.


Obviously 2 instances of dishonesty during undergraduate studies is pretty awful for someone who wants to practice law and is likely considered far worse than underage drinking tickets, speeding tickets, etc. but I still feel like it's not the end of the world. People make mistakes and if they are able to show that they are no longer in the same category of maturity that they once were when they made these foolish mistakes, they could have a chance of persuading admission members that they have 'changed' and overcame 'struggles'.

MrAnon
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby MrAnon » Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:24 am

The only thing that any average law school cares about is whether you can be barred in the state. So, you need to call the bar examiners of the states you intend to apply to, or more specifically the home states of the law schools you intend to apply to, tell them your story, and ask if that is an impediment to being barred. If they feel that it is not a big deal then you can tell your schools that you did that then they'll welcome you with open arms.

All your average school cares about is whether it can tell US news that its students all passed the bar. Unfortunately you will have trouble sitting for the bar if your state bar has a problem with you. A bigger school like Harvard might decide this is too offensive anyway, but that is doubtful. These schools let people in with worse issues all the time.

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Veyron
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby Veyron » Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:25 am

^ Typicaly people who get in with things as bad or worse have put a significant amount of "clean" time between the infraction and the application.

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Chris_cpb
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby Chris_cpb » Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:30 am

Veyron wrote:^ Typicaly people who get in with things as bad or worse have put a significant amount of "clean" time between the infraction and the application.


I suppose this makes sense and can strengthen the argument of the culpable student who has learned from bad choices. I just wonder how this "clean" time can really be judged when it is clear what the motivation for the time being served really is.

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AreJay711
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby AreJay711 » Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:47 am

Time off can help but I do think this is still damning for a T25 school. A lot of schools take the honor policy very seriously - UVA probably would have expelled you the first time. You will probably have to settle for a lower ranked school but you might as well cast a wide net.

mst
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby mst » Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:58 am

Notes from Montauks book on law school admission that I found on a quick google search:

1.) Regardless of whether you think it will be reported to the law school or not, REPORT IT to the law school. If the bar finds out 3 years later and reports it to the law school, you will undoubtedly be kicked out of law school.
2.) Not going to sugar coat it: you picked the worse time to cheat. Senior year should be the time you demonstrate maturity if at all. It is directly prior to LS or employment. You have no more chance to prove that you have grown or can work honestly in an academic field. Best option is to take a few years off, find meaningful employment and service opportunities that will counter-act these facts and say something about your hard work and character and growth.

Either way your GPA is not that stellar. Assuming you convince an admission committee of your transformation, you're still fighting an uphill battle. You will essentially be wasting your high LSAT by going to the school that is willing to accept the mix between a mediocre student and a person with an unusually terrible (and worse: RECENT) history.

Do yourself a favor in both the cheating and GPA regards and delay law school by a few years to correct these weaknesses that will stand out on your application.

On a side note: How on earth do you manage to cheat twice with the same professor??? Even the fact that you note that you had homework every night (as if this offers some "perspective") demonstrates that you haven't fully accepted the responsibility and severity of your actions. If you're the kind of person who not only rejects responsibility once but twice in situations as serious as this, then do yourself a personal favor and make a change in your life... not for the sake of law school applications but for the sake of being an adult.
Last edited by mst on Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

lucield
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby lucield » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:01 am

thanks for the replies

- it wasn't same teacher, it was the same dept. and also to the previous poster, im not sure i understand your point. i take responsibility for what happened, and im just trying to figure out what my chances are of still getting in, while planning for the future.

you are correct, i shouldnt have emphasized that, but as i said sometimes does affect me, and i do apologize for that. That doesnt change the fact that I have taken responsibility and focused on the future, i think everyone sometimes wishes they could do things differently.

im going to be working abroad in what should be a fairly different job scenario that most grads, so hopefully that will be help. there is good opp for advancement, and i dont mind working for a couple of years.

mst
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby mst » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:27 am

Again I don't like being straightforward but it's late: You could be promoted to VP of Operations for the Galapagos Islands Tourism Exchange within 3 years for all they care, but this doesn't necessarily demonstrate any sense of maturity or growth or moral respectability. Most people who apply to the best law schools have very unique work experience... You'll just be the cheater with unique work experience instead of the cheater with bad grades...

If you are serious about getting into a good law school within the next couple years (when the cheating issues/academic record will still play the primary role in your application), you need to follow some sort of path that can demonstrate extremely hard work, self-responsibility, and character. IE. Letters from managers that can attest to your honesty, dedication, and hard work; OR a track record of some substantial, selfless community service.

Good luck.

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IAFG
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:30 am

mst wrote:the cheating issues/academic record will still play the primary role in your application

you did one google search and now you're an expert on how schools view this shit? i bet WUSTL would take him sans "cleansing" WE.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby Kohinoor » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:48 am

IAFG wrote:
mst wrote:the cheating issues/academic record will still play the primary role in your application

you did one google search and now you're an expert on how schools view this shit? i bet WUSTL would take him sans "cleansing" WE.

TLS is a lot more palatable once you realize that anyone making definitive statements is probably full of shit.

mst
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby mst » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:56 am

The google search was just so I had some easily acceptable and hard evidence for ONE simple issue that is easy to reference (the cheating) and hard to digest.

The assertion that your academic record still plays at least 1/3 of a role in your application, if not more within 2-3 years out of school, is just plain common sense built off of a LOT of reading, research, and opinions. Two separate posts.

Just because WUSTL has a track record of taking lower GPAs doesn't mean they have a track record of taking lower GPA's from folks who have done absolutely nothing to prove they are a different person than the repetitive cheater they were 8 months ago, or even 2 years ago. If he wants to apply there, I encourage him to. It won't hurt. It's probably one of his bests bets, W/E or no. However, I think he stands a substantially better chance in 2 years when he has something serious to prove he has changed, aside from just a cool line on a resume in between "University of where I cheated a few times as a senior" and his name.

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IAFG
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:14 am

This is a negative soft. It isn't felony or something that will be a huge C&F issue. I predict OP will slightly underperform his numbers. Maybe.

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SullaFelix
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Re: Applying with honor code violation

Postby SullaFelix » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:46 am

lucield wrote:Hey guys,

I know this question has been asked many times before, but I guess I just wanted to get opinions on my own case.

First of all, as a disclaimer, I understand and completely admit that the difficult situation I have created for myself is my own fault, and while sometimes I do obviously feel bitter, the majority of the time I simply try and look at it as a learning experience for the future.

I went to a good state university, and never had any problems with cheating or anything until my senior year, in my first semester I was accused of collaborating with another student in a way that had violated the university's plagiarism rules. I honestly didn't know what we were doing could have been termed plagiarism, (although in retrospect it was really stupid, we thought at worst we would just be asked to re do the assignments) we both worked on essays together, but submitted them under our own individual name - it was the same essay, but we thought if we were ever asked, since we would freely admit that the other wrote it with us, that it wasn't plagiarism ( i know, it sounds retarded, but you can't change the past) the teacher was a martinet, and so she said we could plead guilty and suffer a 5 point grade dock and it be on academic records, or take our chances with judicial services. so we pleaded guilty and took the dock.

so i thought it was over, but it wasnt.

next semester, next sequence of the same class. This time, I was found guilty of using the answer key to copy answers on one homework assignment (something to keep in mind, we had daily homework submissions) so the teacher said since it was my second offence she was going to fail me in the course, but this time I took it to judicial services and managed to get it limited to a D-. mostly through the assistance of the very nice guy handling my case.

I apologize if my narrative abilities are limited, and if I sound recalcitrant. Anyways, I walked away having learned some valuable life lessons, and having gained some maturity and motivation. Unfortunately, college is now over, and I am now trying to go law school.

In summary - two violations, one for plagiarism on a homework essay, one for cheating on a homework assignment.

I pleaded guilty both times, and I made a good impression on the case manager, so I think I could ask him to write a recommendation.

I also don't know it exactly how it would appear if the school checked my student records, but I intend to tell the truth on my application and whatever happens, happens.

My weighted GPA should be around a 3 or a little higher, and I am taking the october lsat. I have been scoring consistently between 165-170, but obviously the real thing is different, so we'll see.

Anyways, I have been trying to keep my morale up and just focus on studying, but I decided to just see what people thought. If people had any ideas, or recommendations, they would be appreciated.

Thanks for reading this.


How about developing life plans that don't involve law school?

You cheated twice — during your senior year — in undergrad. You're graduating with an awful GPA. Even without the cheating, you'd likely be out of any top schools; with the cheating; you're out of the schools that would have been prime targets.

Given that, at the very least, you're going to have to put a few years of legitimate work experience between this and any graduate programs, it's probably worth at least considering the possibility that law school isn't the right choice for you.




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