sub 150s and 160s into T10

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NV53A
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sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby NV53A » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:37 pm

Is it extremely rare for people with 160-164 to get into schools like HYS?
Based on percentile admissions, I would think that some of the top schools would admit some sub 150s-160s as long as they have some other compelling aspects of their application and don't affect their overall 25% and 75% reportable percentiles.

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bk1
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby bk1 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:38 pm

You would think, but they don't. Most schools have floors even though they can admit people below them and have their percentiles stay the same.

For non-URM's 160's is 99.99% out of HYS and for all of them 150's is likely 100% out of the T14.

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Sentry
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby Sentry » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:42 pm

You can only get into a T10 with a 150s-160s if you do a lot of drugs, break a lot of laws, and are generally a bad person....then write a book about it.

NV53A
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby NV53A » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:45 pm

Sentry wrote:You can only get into a T10 with a 150s-160s if you do a lot of drugs, break a lot of laws, and are generally a bad person....then write a book about it.


lol link to said applicant?

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bk1
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby bk1 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:46 pm

NV53A wrote:
Sentry wrote:You can only get into a T10 with a 150s-160s if you do a lot of drugs, break a lot of laws, and are generally a bad person....then write a book about it.


lol link to said applicant?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Wurtzel

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Sentry
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby Sentry » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:47 pm

NV53A wrote:
Sentry wrote:You can only get into a T10 with a 150s-160s if you do a lot of drugs, break a lot of laws, and are generally a bad person....then write a book about it.


lol link to said applicant?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/fashion/28wurtzel.html

NV53A
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby NV53A » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:48 pm

bk1 wrote:You would think, but they don't. Most schools have floors even though they can admit people below them and have their percentiles stay the same.

For non-URM's 160's is 99.99% out of HYS and for all of them 150's is likely 100% out of the T14.


Why don't they? Is it for HYS's brand sake? Elitist mentality?

I feel like T14 schools are in it strictly for the ranking game and to continually perpetuate the notion that prestige ends with T14 and that public service crap is for non-t14 schools.

WestOfTheRest
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby WestOfTheRest » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:50 pm

NV53A wrote:
bk1 wrote:You would think, but they don't. Most schools have floors even though they can admit people below them and have their percentiles stay the same.

For non-URM's 160's is 99.99% out of HYS and for all of them 150's is likely 100% out of the T14.


Why don't they? Is it for HYS's brand sake? Elitist mentality?

I feel like T14 schools are in it strictly for the ranking game and to continually perpetuate the notion that prestige ends with T14 and that public service crap is for non-t14 schools.

Umm, no. it's because there are enough applicants with great numbers who have done equally impressive things as anyone who doesn't have the numbers

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IAFG
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby IAFG » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:50 pm

NV53A wrote:public service crap is for non-t14 schools.

wut?

NV53A
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby NV53A » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:52 pm

CastleRock wrote:
NV53A wrote:
bk1 wrote:You would think, but they don't. Most schools have floors even though they can admit people below them and have their percentiles stay the same.

For non-URM's 160's is 99.99% out of HYS and for all of them 150's is likely 100% out of the T14.


Why don't they? Is it for HYS's brand sake? Elitist mentality?

I feel like T14 schools are in it strictly for the ranking game and to continually perpetuate the notion that prestige ends with T14 and that public service crap is for non-t14 schools.

Umm, no. it's because there are enough applicants with great numbers who have done equally impressive things as anyone who doesn't have the numbers


I don't doubt that at all. Yet, I still think it's more than a coincidence that almost nobody with sub 160s ever get into HYS.

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bk1
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby bk1 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:53 pm

NV53A wrote:Why don't they? Is it for HYS's brand sake? Elitist mentality?

I feel like T14 schools are in it strictly for the ranking game and to continually perpetuate the notion that prestige ends with T14 and that public service crap is for non-t14 schools.


Because all schools have an interest in graduating capable lawyers. They feel that low LSAT students (or conversely low UGPA students) will not do very well in law school. There is also the fact that it is pretty unfair to have a few 150 LSAT students competing against a horde of 170 LSAT students, they are pretty much fucked from the getgo.

Arguably the non T14 schools are way more in it for the ranking game than the T14 schools. I don't know where you got that but the prestige doesn't "end" with the T14, however they are the T14 for a reason because they have been the historically well renowned law schools since long before USNWR. On top of that, I don't think any school pushes "public service crap is for non-t14 schools," that is a ridiculous notion.

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bk1
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby bk1 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:54 pm

NV53A wrote:
CastleRock wrote:Umm, no. it's because there are enough applicants with great numbers who have done equally impressive things as anyone who doesn't have the numbers


I don't doubt that at all. Yet, I still think it's more than a coincidence that almost nobody with sub 160s ever get into HYS.


That isn't a coincidence. There's nothing wrong with valuing the LSAT and UGPA over softs. Why should law schools care more about the fact that you wrote a bestseller than the fact that you can't score higher than a 160 on the LSAT?

NV53A
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby NV53A » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:54 pm

bk1 wrote:
NV53A wrote:
Sentry wrote:You can only get into a T10 with a 150s-160s if you do a lot of drugs, break a lot of laws, and are generally a bad person....then write a book about it.


lol link to said applicant?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Wurtzel


She graduated from Yale Law School at the end of the 2008 term, but failed the New York bar exam the first time she took it. Wurtzel sparked controversy in the legal community by holding herself out as a lawyer in interviews, even though she was not licensed to practice law in any jurisdiction at the time.[8] However, Wurtzel passed the February 2010 New York State bar exam.[9] She writes on a regular basis for The Wall Street Journal


Wow I can understand not passing the bar, especially in NY, but to go around lying about her status as a lawyer... She also had a history of plagiarizing in her UG as well.

Ironically, she embodies all the necessary characteristics of a lawyer. I'm sure she will make $$$.

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flyingpanda
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby flyingpanda » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:58 pm

IAFG wrote:
NV53A wrote:public service crap is for non-t14 schools.

wut?


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IAFG
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby IAFG » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:00 pm

people with low LSAT scores are at a competitive disadvantage with people who have strong LSAT scores.

NV53A
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby NV53A » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:01 pm

bk1 wrote:
NV53A wrote:
CastleRock wrote:Umm, no. it's because there are enough applicants with great numbers who have done equally impressive things as anyone who doesn't have the numbers


I don't doubt that at all. Yet, I still think it's more than a coincidence that almost nobody with sub 160s ever get into HYS.


That isn't a coincidence. There's nothing wrong with valuing the LSAT and UGPA over softs. Why should law schools care more about the fact that you wrote a bestseller than the fact that you can't score higher than a 160 on the LSAT?


I saw a video of LSAC president explaining the law school performance of minority applicants in relation to their higher lsat scoring, white applicants.
He saw that minority students, who have been historically and socially disadvantaged, did just as well as their higher-achieving white classmates.
Not to say that this concludes anything, but in light of the study, I'd think that T14 schools would do more (even on sympathetic grounds) to experiment with their bottom 25 percentile students.

I find it highly amusing that according to that LSAC president, some law school deans actually do not understand how percentile works, and ignorantly demand that their admission standards be at a certain cut off number.

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flyingpanda
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby flyingpanda » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:03 pm

NV53A wrote:
bk1 wrote:
NV53A wrote:
CastleRock wrote:Umm, no. it's because there are enough applicants with great numbers who have done equally impressive things as anyone who doesn't have the numbers


I don't doubt that at all. Yet, I still think it's more than a coincidence that almost nobody with sub 160s ever get into HYS.


That isn't a coincidence. There's nothing wrong with valuing the LSAT and UGPA over softs. Why should law schools care more about the fact that you wrote a bestseller than the fact that you can't score higher than a 160 on the LSAT?



He saw that minority students, who have been historically and socially disadvantaged, did just as well as their higher-achieving white classmates.



That is actually the complete opposite of what he said and he wasn't speaking broadly about "historically and socially disadvantaged" students, he was speaking specifically about URM applicants.

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bk1
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby bk1 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:05 pm

NV53A wrote:
I saw a video of LSAC president explaining the law school performance of minority applicants in relation to their higher lsat scoring, white applicants.
He saw that minority students, who have been historically and socially disadvantaged, did just as well as their higher-achieving white classmates.
Not to say that this concludes anything, but in light of the study, I'd think that T14 schools would do more (even on sympathetic grounds) to experiment with their bottom 25 percentile students.

I find it highly amusing that according to that LSAC president, some law school deans actually do not understand how percentile works, and ignorantly demand that their admission standards be at a certain cut off number.


I believe you're referring to Alex Johnson's lecture at UVa. He specifically said that the LSAT was an excellent predictor of law school performance, even better for minorities. The problem is that minorities often do not do well on the LSAT and thus schools, if they want diversity, are forced to take lower LSAT minority applicants. As the LSAT is a good predictor of performance, these minority students often struggle because they are at a disadvantage as 160 scorers competing against 170 scorers.

That disadvantage is exactly why schools do not experiment with admitting low-LSAT and low-GPA applicants.

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby Lawl Shcool » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:09 pm

<--- 156 LSAT Non-URM @ t10 with a 3.3 ugpa

NV53A
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby NV53A » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:09 pm

bk1 wrote:
NV53A wrote:Why don't they? Is it for HYS's brand sake? Elitist mentality?

I feel like T14 schools are in it strictly for the ranking game and to continually perpetuate the notion that prestige ends with T14 and that public service crap is for non-t14 schools.


Because all schools have an interest in graduating capable lawyers. They feel that low LSAT students (or conversely low UGPA students) will not do very well in law school. There is also the fact that it is pretty unfair to have a few 150 LSAT students competing against a horde of 170 LSAT students, they are pretty much fucked from the getgo.

Arguably the non T14 schools are way more in it for the ranking game than the T14 schools. I don't know where you got that but the prestige doesn't "end" with the T14, however they are the T14 for a reason because they have been the historically well renowned law schools since long before USNWR. On top of that, I don't think any school pushes "public service crap is for non-t14 schools," that is a ridiculous notion.


I was half joking about the public service part (in bad taste I may admit). Of course HYS cares about public interest as much as anybody else.

As for non-T14 schools having more interest in ranking the game, I am not so sure.
T14 schools don't have any more or less qualified professors, or some amazing, efficient ways to educate their students. Every professor in law schools have his/her degree from HYS. What sets them apart from the rest is their tradition, history, and the USNWR rankings.

They have high stakes in keeping status quo. Look at Duke Law School for example. They reported 100% employment rate for their 2009 class at the peak of the recession. The method in which they employed their graduates, to me, is highly suspicious and unethical. I wouldn't conclude that T14 schools don't game as hard as the non T-14 schools.

Look at Duke Law school

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bk1
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby bk1 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:12 pm

NV53A wrote:I was half joking about the public service part (in bad taste I may admit). Of course HYS cares about public interest as much as anybody else.

As for non-T14 schools having more interest in ranking the game, I am not so sure.
T14 schools don't have any more or less qualified professors, or some amazing, efficient ways to educate their students. Every professor in law schools have his/her degree from HYS. What sets them apart from the rest is their tradition, history, and the USNWR rankings.

They have high stakes in keeping status quo. Look at Duke Law School for example. They reported 100% employment rate for their 2009 class at the peak of the recession. The method in which they employed their graduates, to me, is highly suspicious and unethical. I wouldn't conclude that T14 schools don't game as hard as the non T-14 schools.

Look at Duke Law school


All schools submit skewed employment data, to not do so would put them at a competitive disadvantage to other schools. What I meant when I said non-T14's care more about their ranking is that they feel they have more to gain. Look at websites for TT, TTT, and TTTT schools, the schools themselves often talk about how they will move up a tier in a year or how they just moved up a tier. You never see reputable schools talk about this because their reputation is already solid and will not change because of USNWR.

Look at law school transparency, some schools are actually submitting unadultered employment data.

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flyingpanda
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby flyingpanda » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:15 pm

This thread has outlived its usefulness.

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bk1
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby bk1 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:24 pm

flyingpanda wrote:This thread has outlived its usefulness.


Quoted for being over 20 posts late on that.

NV53A
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby NV53A » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:53 pm

bk1 wrote:
flyingpanda wrote:This thread has outlived its usefulness.


Quoted for being over 20 posts late on that.


I like you very much.

























(no homo)

vstraight
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Re: sub 150s and 160s into T10

Postby vstraight » Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:15 pm

There is a reason why minorities score lower than non minorities on the LSAT.

I just don't know what the reason is.




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