Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

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20160810
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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby 20160810 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:10 am

im_blue wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Are any of the UC's even hard (save UCB engineering)? Don't they have a 3.95 median GPA for undergrads?


Cue "not sure if serious" picture.


I'm serious, don't the UC's have rampant grade inflation?

Average GPAs according to gradeinflation.com:
Brown 3.61
Stanford 3.55
Yale 3.51
Harvard 3.45
Penn 3.44
Columbia 3.42
Dartmouth 3.42
Cornell 3.36
Chicago 3.35
Princeton 3.28

Berkeley 3.27
UCLA 3.22
UC San Diego 3.02
UC Santa Barbara 3.02
CSU East Bay 2.99
UC Irvine 2.98
CSU San Bernardino 2.92
CSU Sacramento 2.86
CSU Fresno 2.85
San Jose State (CSU) 2.85
UC Riverside 2.74
CSU Fullerton 2.68

Indeed. UCs and CSUs do not grade inflate at all. There are a lot of dumb students, and the underpaid TAs who do the grading don't give half a damn if kids fail out. Compare this to some fancypants liberal arts college with class sizes of 10 where if William Von Ascot IV fails out, his parents stop paying $65,000 a year and the school takes a financial hit. State-subsidized schools don't have a financial incentive to grade inflate the way private schools do, and absent an incentive to do so there is no rational reason why schools would grade inflate.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby D. H2Oman » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:14 am

SBL wrote:Compare this to some fancypants liberal arts college with class sizes of 10 where if William Von Ascot IV fails out, his parents stop paying $65,000 a year and the school takes a financial hit.


:lol:

and credited

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby 005618502 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:13 pm

This whole conversation is unwarrented. Go to the better school, this shouldnt even be a question. I am from california and honestly CSU's are ALMOST completly worthless, you will learn nothing but how to party. Dont be lazy, go to the best school you can. In the case that Law schools isnt for you, you at least have a decent degree, not some worthless piece of paper.

I hate to insult certain people, but my best friend goes to SDSU, and many go to other cal states, and its a joke. My friend at SDSU never studies, doesnt learn anything, and still makes good grades. So thats a HUGE positive for some people going to law school because you will have a high GPA, but what about the actual education quality, and increasing intelligence.

Hopefully i am not the only one who feels this way

CalBear2011
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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby CalBear2011 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:15 pm

If you couldn't tell by my username, I go to UC Berkeley for undergrad and let me tell you I'm glad I did because every class at least in my department (sociology) has more than enough seats and unlike many of the CSU's it is very easy to graduate in 4 years. I actually registered for classes the day before school started and got every class I wanted, including classes with the most popular professors.

Furthermore, many CSU's are commuter schools and you won't get the traditional college experience, if that matters to you. As far as law school admissions go, a 3.7 from Cal or even UCLA for that matter is different than a 3.7 from Cal State East Bay. It may not make a huge difference but it does make a difference contrary to opinions on TLS, and every bit of help counts in the ever-increasing competitiveness of LS admissions.

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby 005618502 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:15 pm

I'm serious, don't the UC's have rampant grade inflation?[/quote]
Average GPAs according to gradeinflation.com:
Brown 3.61
Stanford 3.55
Yale 3.51
Harvard 3.45
Penn 3.44
Columbia 3.42
Dartmouth 3.42
Cornell 3.36
Chicago 3.35
Princeton 3.28

Berkeley 3.27
UCLA 3.22
UC San Diego 3.02
UC Santa Barbara 3.02
CSU East Bay 2.99
UC Irvine 2.98
CSU San Bernardino 2.92
CSU Sacramento 2.86
CSU Fresno 2.85
San Jose State (CSU) 2.85
UC Riverside 2.74
CSU Fullerton 2.68[/quote]
Indeed. UCs and CSUs do not grade inflate at all. There are a lot of dumb students, and the underpaid TAs who do the grading don't give half a damn if kids fail out. Compare this to some fancypants liberal arts college with class sizes of 10 where if William Von Ascot IV fails out, his parents stop paying $65,000 a year and the school takes a financial hit. State-subsidized schools don't have a financial incentive to grade inflate the way private schools do, and absent an incentive to do so there is no rational reason why schools would grade inflate.[/quote]


You could also take it as the school's with higher GPA's are the better schools (obviously) and CSU's have ALOT of students who couldnt care less if they have a 2.0 or a 4.0. <-- that is a fact

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby 005618502 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:17 pm

CalBear2011 wrote:If you couldn't tell by my username, I go to UC Berkeley for undergrad and let me tell you I'm glad I did because every class at least in my department (sociology) has more than enough seats and unlike many of the CSU's it is very easy to graduate in 4 years. I actually registered for classes the day before school started and got every class I wanted, including classes with the most popular professors.

Furthermore, many CSU's are commuter schools and you won't get the traditional college experience, if that matters to you. As far as law school admissions go, a 3.7 from Cal or even UCLA for that matter is different than a 3.7 from Cal State East Bay. It may not make a huge difference but it does make a difference contrary to opinions on TLS, and every bit of help counts in the ever-increasing competitiveness of LS admissions.


+1, but he cant get into Cal or UCLA. UCSD is only great for science and research. UCI/UCSB are impacted so you wont be getting classes as easily as you say

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby arhmcpo » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:15 pm

Anecdotal (of course) but I went to a CSU over UC's.

I graduated in 4 years with a liberal arts major - never had a hard time getting prereqs or classes, though I don't know if your major is small and could pose difficulties getting your required's done...

I slacked off my senior year and still pulled a 3.85 while very talented, likely smarter friends, at UC's struggled to stay above a 3.0. I also graduated with no debt because my CSU, which was one of the better ones, was about 1/4 the cost of the area UC's. Certainly the difficulty at the UC's varies with how prestigious (or not) they are, but I don't believe for a second that I could have pulled a 3.85 at UCLA unless I had worked much much harder and been very lucky.

Keep in mind that my experience this was before the worst budget cuts in CA. But when my friend from UCLA had a 3.1, good lsat score, and debt; he barely got off the Hastings waitlist. Meanwhile I was getting in to those schools w/ money where he was getting flatout denied from because all these schools care about is whether you can raise their gpa or lsat median, or both. You can point to Berkely as looking "beyond the numbers" but they are the exception, not the rule.

The UC's are great schools but I would maintain that they are not elite enough, like the ivy's, to make up for a lower gpa with their high prestige - when you go through the admissions process against kids with high gpa's from less prestigious, less elite schools. I would go CSU for sure.

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby Hannibal » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:18 pm

If they were getting 3.1 from UCLA, then IMO they weren't that great of a student. It's not SO different.

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby 005618502 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:03 pm

Hannibal wrote:If they were getting 3.1 from UCLA, then IMO they weren't that great of a student. It's not SO different.


+1

3.1 is not a great student at any school. Could definitely be smart, but that is different

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:05 pm

jt1341 wrote:
Hannibal wrote:If they were getting 3.1 from UCLA, then IMO they weren't that great of a student. It's not SO different.


+1

3.1 is not a great student at any school. Could definitely be smart, but that is different


3.1 is a slacker in most majors. In hard sciences it might mean dumb, or lazy.

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby Blumpbeef » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:45 pm

jt1341 wrote:You could also take it as the school's with higher GPA's are the better schools (obviously) and CSU's have ALOT of students who couldnt care less if they have a 2.0 or a 4.0. <-- that is a fact


Is it just my imagination, or was this same scenario a Flaw in the Reasoning question on one of the LSATs?

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby 005618502 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:01 pm

dhrizek wrote:
jt1341 wrote:You could also take it as the school's with higher GPA's are the better schools (obviously) and CSU's have ALOT of students who couldnt care less if they have a 2.0 or a 4.0. <-- that is a fact


Is it just my imagination, or was this same scenario a Flaw in the Reasoning question on one of the LSATs?


Uh oh someones taking the LSAT in October

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby CalBear2011 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:48 pm

arhmcpo wrote:Anecdotal (of course) but I went to a CSU over UC's.

I graduated in 4 years with a liberal arts major - never had a hard time getting prereqs or classes, though I don't know if your major is small and could pose difficulties getting your required's done...

I slacked off my senior year and still pulled a 3.85 while very talented, likely smarter friends, at UC's struggled to stay above a 3.0. I also graduated with no debt because my CSU, which was one of the better ones, was about 1/4 the cost of the area UC's. Certainly the difficulty at the UC's varies with how prestigious (or not) they are, but I don't believe for a second that I could have pulled a 3.85 at UCLA unless I had worked much much harder and been very lucky.

Keep in mind that my experience this was before the worst budget cuts in CA. But when my friend from UCLA had a 3.1, good lsat score, and debt; he barely got off the Hastings waitlist. Meanwhile I was getting in to those schools w/ money where he was getting flatout denied from because all these schools care about is whether you can raise their gpa or lsat median, or both. You can point to Berkely as looking "beyond the numbers" but they are the exception, not the rule.

The UC's are great schools but I would maintain that they are not elite enough, like the ivy's, to make up for a lower gpa with their high prestige - when you go through the admissions process against kids with high gpa's from less prestigious, less elite schools. I would go CSU for sure.

You have proved a point many on TLS seem to ignore about undergraduate institutions. You yourself say that you don’t think for a second you could pull a 3.85 without a whole host of extra necessary conditions. This is the whole reason why admissions differentiate between undergraduate institutions. Now you may say that all Law Schools care about is keeping their medians up, and you wouldn’t be wrong at all. They would certainly pick you with a 3.85 over a UCLA graduate with probably a 3.7, all other things constant. So, you may say, well where do undergraduate institutions come into play then? The answer lies here: there are insane amounts of people applying to LS now than ever before so great your 3.85 is better than the UCLA 3.7, but what about your 3.85 against the litany of other 3.85’s in the world? They certainly cannot accept all or even most of them, so admissions committee’s differentiate by reputation of your undergraduate institution assuming LSAT’s are about equal of course. With all the people applying these days your LSAT and GPA combo is not unique unlike before, now there are a whole stack of others with the same combo and only a fraction of that stack will get in. So, GPA and LSAT from let’s say UCLA will not beat a higher combo from a CSU individual by-and-large; however, and equal combo from UCLA will knock you out so to speak.

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby IAFG » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:10 pm

CalBear2011 wrote:So, you may say, well where do undergraduate institutions come into play then? The answer lies here: HYP

ftfy

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby CalBear2011 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:14 pm

IAFG wrote:
CalBear2011 wrote:So, you may say, well where do undergraduate institutions come into play then? The answer lies here: HYP

ftfy


While obviously true, that answer alone is reductionist.

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:14 pm

IAFG wrote:
CalBear2011 wrote:So, you may say, well where do undergraduate institutions come into play then? The answer lies here: HYP

ftfy


No the real question is which law schools care about undergrad quality, and which undergrads do they value.

UChi seems to value Ugrad prestige, and Penn seems to value Ivy League background.

Other law schools don't really show any bias.

Not all adcoms have the same opinions, and unlike the GPA, LSAT and URM issues, there is no incentive to value ugrad prestige. You cannot have a comprehensive answer for how admissions deans treat undergrads because they are all different.

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby im_blue » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:23 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:
CalBear2011 wrote:So, you may say, well where do undergraduate institutions come into play then? The answer lies here: HYP

ftfy


No the real question is which law schools care about undergrad quality, and which undergrads do they value.

UChi seems to value Ugrad prestige, and Penn seems to value Ivy League background.

So would Penn really favor a Cornell UG over Stanford/MIT/Duke?

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:26 pm

im_blue wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:
CalBear2011 wrote:So, you may say, well where do undergraduate institutions come into play then? The answer lies here: HYP

ftfy


No the real question is which law schools care about undergrad quality, and which undergrads do they value.

UChi seems to value Ugrad prestige, and Penn seems to value Ivy League background.

So would Penn really favor a Cornell UG over Stanford/MIT/Duke?


Over Stanford and MIT I think unlikely since they have Ivy Leauge like reputation. Duke, possibly, but again, they may fancy it just the same.

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby rayiner » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:53 pm

Duke >> Cornell.

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IAFG
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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby IAFG » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:35 pm

even among prestige whoring schools, i am sure there is more "bands" than a linear rank, a la chambers. and once you get down to UCLA et al i really doubt it has impact on your outcomes.

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:38 pm

IAFG wrote:even among prestige whoring schools, i am sure there is more "bands" than a linear rank, a la chambers. and once you get down to UCLA et al i really doubt it has impact on your outcomes.


I doubt that. The top publics rival all but the best top privates.

But that might just be my folksy midwesternism shining through.

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby ajmanyjah » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:44 am

Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:even among prestige whoring schools, i am sure there is more "bands" than a linear rank, a la chambers. and once you get down to UCLA et al i really doubt it has impact on your outcomes.


I doubt that. The top publics rival all but the best top privates.

But that might just be my folksy midwesternism shining through.



By rival I hope you mean beat. Because I have to say it comes down to department to department whether even Yale/Stanford/Yale beat Berkeley, Michigan, Wisconsin, Virginia...and a whole host of others

Personally, in the research I used to be in, I know UDub and UCSD smacked Harvard, Yale and Stanford silly, while NYU rose above them in research, but not prestige

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby Gaucho » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:53 am

every public institution in california is stricken by budget cuts, so don't let that determine where you go. classes are impacted at all levels of higher education (community college, CSU, and UC).

just like your law degree name, your undergraduate school is something that will stay with you for life. it will come up in conservations, job interviews, and so on. if you have the opportunity, go to a UC. UC _____ will be in all cases superior to the Cal State...there is a reason why it's ranked higher...prestige, resources, professors, majors offered, extracurricular activities. bankrupt or not, the University of California is collectively the greatest public school system in the country. Cal States are still a great bargain, but are in all respects, a commuter school. Go to a UC.

from what i read in this thread, there are some misconceptions about UC being thrown around. The only classes where TA's are extensively involved are introductory courses. Once you are taking coursework in your upper division major, it's gonna be you and the professor. Yes, class sizes have risen, but there is still ample opportunity to work closely with professors to develop quality LOR's. Take the name. UC is the real bargain here.

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:51 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:even among prestige whoring schools, i am sure there is more "bands" than a linear rank, a la chambers. and once you get down to UCLA et al i really doubt it has impact on your outcomes.


I doubt that. The top publics rival all but the best top privates.

But that might just be my folksy midwesternism shining through.


I just looked at data that UIUC undergrad collects about alumni who go to law school. And it show's that we have a very easy time getting into Northwestern and UChicago but have a hell of a time getting into Harvard. The mean UIUC applicant who got admitted to havard was 4.04/ 173.4, with 6 people getting in. Ironically we go pretty shitty at UMich too. Fuck Michigan.

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Re: Which UG would you recommend: UC__ or CSU__, for law school?

Postby im_blue » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:57 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:even among prestige whoring schools, i am sure there is more "bands" than a linear rank, a la chambers. and once you get down to UCLA et al i really doubt it has impact on your outcomes.


I doubt that. The top publics rival all but the best top privates.

But that might just be my folksy midwesternism shining through.

Ironically we go pretty shitty at UMich too. Fuck Michigan.

Don't worry, I'm sure OSU grads don't fare much better.




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