Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

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ChiButterfly
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Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby ChiButterfly » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:21 am

If a school gives you a fee waiver from the Candidate Referral Services and you are actually considering that school, should you use the fee waiver or just use your own money? I ask this because it seemed that school give those CRS fee waivers just to get more applicants (for stats that make their school seem more selective). It almost seems that once they see that you used their fee waiver, they automatically don't even look at your application.

Thoughts on this??

4102011
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby 4102011 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:25 am

I don't think that they automatically discount people just because they have a fee waiver, especially considering since it seems super random the numbers they give it to.

Second of all, they don't really give you an option. By the time you get to that point, if you have it automatically waived through CRS, it doesn't give you an option of paying with your own money, it just says that the fee has been waived.

So I would just be happy you saved $80ish and apply if you really want to go :) It's not a kiss of death or anything.

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Nulli Secundus
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby Nulli Secundus » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:30 pm

Schools give fee waivers to some applicants fitting certain criteria numbers-wise since they want more of those to apply to their schools, and this is because those applicants would presumably increase their medians, which will not happen unless said applicants matriculate; so it is quite pointless for a school to ignore an applicant that it extended a fee waiver to. Amirite?

Mal
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby Mal » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:33 pm

nullisecundus wrote:Schools give fee waivers to some applicants fitting certain criteria numbers-wise since they want more of those to apply to their schools, and this is because those applicants would presumably increase their medians, which will not happen unless said applicants matriculate; so it is quite pointless for a school to ignore an applicant that it extended a fee waiver to. Amirite?


Yes. Not using a fee waiver given to you is retarded. Anyone who thinks that something this small is taken into account is an idiot.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:34 pm

ChiButterfly wrote:If a school gives you a fee waiver from the Candidate Referral Services and you are actually considering that school, should you use the fee waiver or just use your own money? I ask this because it seemed that school give those CRS fee waivers just to get more applicants (for stats that make their school seem more selective). It almost seems that once they see that you used their fee waiver, they automatically don't even look at your application.

Thoughts on this??

Are you trying to ask if you should pay the app fee even if you got a fee waiver? That's kind of absurd. In fact, I think fee waivers are automatically applied; they were for me, I'd just not get charged anything when I applied. There was no option to pay anyway, I'd be billed $12 for the LSDAS fee and that was it.

Also, I ended up getting accepted to and attending UVA, a school I originally wasn't even going to apply to except they gave me a fee waiver and I was trying to cast a wide net. I applied RD and was a splitter, and consider myself now fairly fortunate to have gotten in. I don't think whether you used a fee waiver is a factor at all; it's just that some schools give more fee waivers, which leads to more applicants who apply and get rejected, but that doesn't mean they're actually factoring the fee waiver into their decisions.

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ChiButterfly
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby ChiButterfly » Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:29 pm

Mal wrote:Yes. Not using a fee waiver given to you is retarded. Anyone who thinks that something this small is taken into account is an idiot.


Considering that I had a friend who had pretty decent numbers (166/3.5) and was rejected at every single school that gave him a fee waiver (including schools that should have been a done deal for him like Washington Univ-St. Louis and Indiana Univ-Bloom), I don't think that there anything wrong in asking about this. He ended up going to a different school (where he did not use a fee waiver) in the Top 20, but that just seemed strange to me.

trudat15
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby trudat15 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:34 pm

ChiButterfly wrote:
Mal wrote:Yes. Not using a fee waiver given to you is retarded. Anyone who thinks that something this small is taken into account is an idiot.


Considering that I had a friend who had pretty decent numbers (166/3.5) and was rejected at every single school that gave him a fee waiver (including schools that should have been a done deal for him like Washington Univ-St. Louis and Indiana Univ-Bloom), I don't think that there anything wrong in asking about this. He ended up going to a different school (where he did not use a fee waiver) in the Top 20, but that just seemed strange to me.


WUSTL 3.70 / 167..................(0, 0)
He was below the medians for both GPA and LSAT for last year and the year before to WUSTL.

Indiana 3.78 / 164..................(+.08, 0)
Dont know if this is the right Indiana, but if it is, he was well below the median on GPA and just slightly above the LSAT.

It's likely he got dinged on both not because of a fee waiver, but because he was below both medians (makes it unlikely - WUSTL), and he was below/above the medians in the other (50-50 chance - Indiana).

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vanwinkle
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:44 pm

trudat15 wrote:
ChiButterfly wrote:
Mal wrote:Yes. Not using a fee waiver given to you is retarded. Anyone who thinks that something this small is taken into account is an idiot.

Considering that I had a friend who had pretty decent numbers (166/3.5) and was rejected at every single school that gave him a fee waiver (including schools that should have been a done deal for him like Washington Univ-St. Louis and Indiana Univ-Bloom), I don't think that there anything wrong in asking about this. He ended up going to a different school (where he did not use a fee waiver) in the Top 20, but that just seemed strange to me.

WUSTL 3.70 / 167..................(0, 0)
He was below the medians for both GPA and LSAT for last year and the year before to WUSTL.

Indiana 3.78 / 164..................(+.08, 0)
Dont know if this is the right Indiana, but if it is, he was well below the median on GPA and just slightly above the LSAT.

It's likely he got dinged on both not because of a fee waiver, but because he was below both medians (makes it unlikely - WUSTL), and he was below/above the medians in the other (50-50 chance - Indiana).

Yeah, there's a causation problem here. To explain, briefly, there are two independent events:

Fee waiver -> Applied to WUSTL/IU

Applied to WUSTL/IU -> Rejected by WUSTL/IU

OP is (incorrectly) inferring that because the fee waiver led to the application, and the application led to the rejection, the fee waiver must have had something to do with the rejection:

Fee waiver -> Applied to WUSTL/IU -> Rejected by WUSTL/IU

However, these are independent causal chains, and OP is ignoring other underlying causes for the rejections (such as low GPA/LSAT or other factors warranting rejection). The fact that fee waivers lead to applications that end in rejection doesn't mean fee waivers are the cause of the rejections. The real causal chain for rejections looks more like this:

Low GPA/LSAT for WUSTL/IU -> Applied to WUSTL/IU -> Rejected by WUSTL/IU

Fee waivers aren't in that full causal chain at all. It happens whether the fee waiver was there or not.

People are being harsh, I think, because they assume OP should see the flaw in their reasoning. But OP obviously doesn't; otherwise they wouldn't be asking the question they are. Hopefully this will make things clearer to OP.

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ChiButterfly
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby ChiButterfly » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:14 pm

vanwinkle wrote:Yeah, there's a causation problem here. To explain, briefly, there are two independent events:

Fee waiver -> Applied to WUSTL/IU

Applied to WUSTL/IU -> Rejected by WUSTL/IU

OP is (incorrectly) inferring that because the fee waiver led to the application, and the application led to the rejection, the fee waiver must have had something to do with the rejection:

Fee waiver -> Applied to WUSTL/IU -> Rejected by WUSTL/IU

However, these are independent causal chains, and OP is ignoring other underlying causes for the rejections (such as low GPA/LSAT or other factors warranting rejection). The fact that fee waivers lead to applications that end in rejection doesn't mean fee waivers are the cause of the rejections. The real causal chain for rejections looks more like this:

Low GPA/LSAT for WUSTL/IU -> Applied to WUSTL/IU -> Rejected by WUSTL/IU

Fee waivers aren't in that full causal chain at all. It happens whether the fee waiver was there or not.

People are being harsh, I think, because they assume OP should see the flaw in their reasoning. But OP obviously doesn't; otherwise they wouldn't be asking the question they are. Hopefully this will make things clearer to OP.


Thanks for the LSAT lesson. Correlation vs. Causation, I understood perfectly the first time. :roll:

One - The guy had incredible softs that were definitely eye-catching.
Two - The application process is not simply just "numbers." I would assume that if a school extends a CRS waiver to you, they have already seen your numbers on the CRS and deemed that to be at least decent enough for them. Add that to everything else and yes, it seemed slightly out of the ordinary that all 8 (at least 8 - it could've been more) schools that extended a waiver to him also dinged him.

Therefore, that was why I posted the question. This is a forum to ask questions and I was curious to know if anyone else knew any type of inside information about that. If your only purpose to reply to my question was to be an ass, then I would venture to say I could've done without it. Thanks. :roll:

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vanwinkle
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:20 pm

ChiButterfly wrote:One - The guy had incredible softs that were definitely eye-catching.
Two - The application process is not simply just "numbers." I would assume that if a school extends a CRS waiver to you, they have already seen your numbers on the CRS and deemed that to be at least decent enough for them. Add that to everything else and yes, it seemed slightly out of the ordinary that all 8 (at least 8 - it could've been more) schools that extended a waiver to him also dinged him.

"Eye-catching softs" typically don't make up for low numbers, especially at schools that are notoriously numbers-driven like WUSTL and IU. Also, you're making another unfounded assumption: That schools limit fee waivers to applicants whose numbers or states make them likely to be admitted. The opposite, in fact, is often true; some schools will issue ridiculously high numbers of fee waivers to drive up the number of applications they receive, since yield rate is a factor in the USNWR rankings and more applicants + same class size = lower yield.

You're making a number of unwarranted assumptions, so you probably shouldn't get pissed off like this:

ChiButterfly wrote:Therefore, that was why I posted the question. This is a forum to ask questions and I was curious to know if anyone else knew any type of inside information about that. If your only purpose to reply to my question was to be an ass, then I would venture to say I could've done without it. Thanks. :roll:

I was actually trying to be helpful, and still am. If you consider pointing out all the ways that you're wrong "being an ass", then I guess I'm being an ass, too, but it doesn't mean I'm not providing potentially helpful information.

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ChiButterfly
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby ChiButterfly » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:30 pm

vanwinkle wrote:"Eye-catching softs" typically don't make up for low numbers, especially at schools that are notoriously numbers-driven like WUSTL and IU. Also, you're making another unfounded assumption: That schools limit fee waivers to applicants whose numbers or states make them likely to be admitted. The opposite, in fact, is often true; some schools will issue ridiculously high numbers of fee waivers to drive up the number of applications they receive, since yield rate is a factor in the USNWR rankings and more applicants + same class size = lower yield.


But isn't that exactly what I asked earlier? Whether or not schools just seem to issue out fee waivers just to make their school seem more selective (corresponding to what you said about some schools issuing waivers to drive up their number of apps)?

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ChiButterfly
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby ChiButterfly » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:33 pm

vanwinkle wrote:I was actually trying to be helpful, and still am. If you consider pointing out all the ways that you're wrong "being an ass", then I guess I'm being an ass, too, but it doesn't mean I'm not providing potentially helpful information.


Point taken. It just seemed like you were trying to be condescending, but I may have misinterpreted what you wrote.

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lzyovrachievr
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby lzyovrachievr » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:44 pm

ChiButterfly wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:"Eye-catching softs" typically don't make up for low numbers, especially at schools that are notoriously numbers-driven like WUSTL and IU. Also, you're making another unfounded assumption: That schools limit fee waivers to applicants whose numbers or states make them likely to be admitted. The opposite, in fact, is often true; some schools will issue ridiculously high numbers of fee waivers to drive up the number of applications they receive, since yield rate is a factor in the USNWR rankings and more applicants + same class size = lower yield.


But isn't that exactly what I asked earlier? Whether or not schools just seem to issue out fee waivers just to make their school seem more selective (corresponding to what you said about some schools issuing waivers to drive up their number of apps)?


Yes, but they also issue fee waivers to people that have good numbers for their school and that are extremely attractive applicants. Thus, you really just have to judge which category you are in before you apply. Don't expect to get accepted because they gave you a waiver and your scores are below average for them, but don't expect to be rejected because they gave you a waiver and your scores are on target.

In the end, the fee waiver is just nice because even if you have no chance, at least you didn't have to pay for the app.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:53 pm

ChiButterfly wrote:But isn't that exactly what I asked earlier? Whether or not schools just seem to issue out fee waivers just to make their school seem more selective (corresponding to what you said about some schools issuing waivers to drive up their number of apps)?

Actually, you took it one step further and raised the issue of correlation, which is what everyone is having a problem with:

ChiButterfly wrote:It almost seems that once they see that you used their fee waiver, they automatically don't even look at your application.

There is a substantial difference between "issuing additional fee waivers to make the school seem more selective" and "automatically dismissing applicants who used fee waivers". Yes, schools do end up soliciting huge numbers of applicants, and yes, this does include people with little or no chance of being accepted, but no, this does not mean they're considering whether you used a fee waiver in their evaluation of you.

Many schools use an initial filtering criteria, where they won't read applications below a certain range. For example, some schools are known to have a "hard" 3.0 GPA floor. In those cases, I could see them automatically dismissing applicants, but that dismissal is based on their numbers, not whether or not they used a fee waiver. For most applicants at most schools, though, every application is fully read by at least one person before a rejection is issued, and fee waiver status is as far as I've heard never a consideration.

If you get a fee waiver from a school, and your numbers make you a likely reject, you're a likely reject whether you used the fee waiver or not. But inversely, if you get a fee waiver and your numbers make you a likely accept, you're a likely accept whether you used the fee waiver or not. You raised the prospect of fee waiver use actually being considered in application evaluation, and that's simply not the case. There's no indication that schools ever even pay attention to who uses one and who doesn't, and there are many people (myself included) who ended up attending a school they applied to because they got a fee waiver.

Plus, there's no way to avoid using one as you'd suggested, anyway. It's automatically applied to your account and you'll get a notice saying you have a fee waiver and don't owe an app fee at checkout time, if you're applying electronically, and almost all schools mandate that you do apply electronically these days. Once you have the fee waiver you can't avoid using it if you want to apply to the school.

trudat15
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby trudat15 » Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:05 am

Op - Dont think anyone is trying to be an "ass" (Mal maybe had a poor choice of words in "retarded"), and if I came off that way, I'm sorry as well.

I was just trying to point out that your friend was 50-50 at Indiana and likely reject at WUSTL, regardless of softs. In any case, I dont think you can "not" use your fee waiver. When I go to checkout, it automatically applies it to your application and you just pay the $12 lsac fee.

And I dont think they are only giving them to people they will ding, otherwise I dont know what to think of my Valparasio, Tulsa and countless other FWs from schools well below my numbers. Unless I'm out everywhere. Which would suck.

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ChiButterfly
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby ChiButterfly » Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:47 am

trudat15 wrote:Op - Dont think anyone is trying to be an "ass" (Mal maybe had a poor choice of words in "retarded"), and if I came off that way, I'm sorry as well.

I was just trying to point out that your friend was 50-50 at Indiana and likely reject at WUSTL, regardless of softs. In any case, I dont think you can "not" use your fee waiver. When I go to checkout, it automatically applies it to your application and you just pay the $12 lsac fee.

And I dont think they are only giving them to people they will ding, otherwise I dont know what to think of my Valparasio, Tulsa and countless other FWs from schools well below my numbers. Unless I'm out everywhere. Which would suck.


Thanks, trudat15. :) I was actually fine with your post. I mean, I understand what everyone is saying - it definitely could have been because of a number of other reasons, including being below the median GPA/LSAT.

09042014
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:14 am

Doesn't matter. I'd be surprised if the person reviewing your application even knows about fee waviers.

I got fee waviers from schools who'd have to suck my nuts to get me to attend. I doubt they were planning on shit canning me.

rundoxierun
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Re: Law School CRS Fee Waiver...But Actually Considering Them?

Postby rundoxierun » Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:41 am

No way this is a real question.. If so tls has hit a new low.. this is just too ridiculous




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