Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

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OperaSoprano
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Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:28 pm

I know many of you know about Law School Transparency, the movement founded by two TLS alums to get law schools to provide complete and accurate employment and salary data about every graduating class. You can read about LST's mission here: --LinkRemoved--

As an applicant, I know I wished better information was available, but future applicants may get to do more than wish. LST recently launched their redesigned website, and I believe everyone applying this cycle should visit, to see employment lists for Vanderbilt and Chicago (for the class of 2009) and the newly organized data clearinghouse with 2008 salary data from every school. I also believe their paper, A Way Forward --LinkRemoved--, will generate much needed discussion.

I think this organization's work is critically important, given the time and money we are investing in law school. As students, we deserve to know which jobs alumni of our schools are able to secure, and how much those jobs paid, and I hope to see LST succeed in its mission in getting law schools to release this data.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com

JeanMarie
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby JeanMarie » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:09 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:I know many of you know about Law School Transparency, the movement founded by two TLS alums to get law schools to provide complete and accurate employment and salary data about every graduating class. You can read about LST's mission here: --LinkRemoved--

As an applicant, I know I wished better information was available, but future applicants may get to do more than wish. LST recently launched their redesigned website, and I believe everyone applying this cycle should visit, to see employment lists for Vanderbilt and Chicago (for the class of 2009) and the newly organized data clearinghouse with 2008 salary data from every school. I also believe their paper, A Way Forward --LinkRemoved--, will generate much needed discussion.

I think this organization's work is critically important, given the time and money we are investing in law school. As students, we deserve to know which jobs alumni of our schools are able to secure, and how much those jobs paid, and I hope to see LST succeed in its mission in getting law schools to release this data.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com


Be careful posting things about how law schools are lying about their employment figures. This forum has been posters for discussing it.

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johnnyutah
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby johnnyutah » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:10 pm

JeanMarie wrote:Be careful posting things about how law schools are lying about their employment figures. This forum has been posters for discussing it.

Yeah, I good point. I heard that's why Mongoose got banned.

JeanMarie
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby JeanMarie » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:16 pm

johnnyutah wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:Be careful posting things about how law schools are lying about their employment figures. This forum has been posters for discussing it.

Yeah, I good point. I heard that's why Mongoose got banned.


Who's Mongoose?

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homestyle28
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby homestyle28 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:19 pm

JeanMarie wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:Be careful posting things about how law schools are lying about their employment figures. This forum has been posters for discussing it.

Yeah, I good point. I heard that's why Mongoose got banned.


Who's Mongoose?


Exactly.

hefox
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby hefox » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:20 pm


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OperaSoprano
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:21 pm

I think everyone acknowledges that schools spin data and the economy is seriously rough right now. What we need is dialogue in which people are straightforward and facts get discussed out in the open, without hyperbole. LST does a good job at that, given the data they have. When we know once and for all how lower ranked schools really placed these past few years, the scambloggers will have their thunder stolen, so to speak. Like everyone else here, I am in favor of facts, and will never censure anyone for posting data from their school.

JeanMarie
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby JeanMarie » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:28 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:I think everyone acknowledges that schools spin data and the economy is seriously rough right now. What we need is dialogue in which people are straightforward and facts get discussed out in the open, without hyperbole. LST does a good job at that, given the data they have. When we know once and for all how lower ranked schools really placed these past few years, the scambloggers will have their thunder stolen, so to speak. Like everyone else here, I am in favor of facts, and will never censure anyone for posting data from their school.


Me too. But I can tell you three things:

1) The numbers are lies,
2) The scam-bloggers are telling the truth, but using emotional language to tell it, which I can understand because I'm in the same boat as they are, and
3) I think that we risk getting banned for talking about this here.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:45 pm

JeanMarie wrote:3) I think that we risk getting banned for talking about this here.

You do realize you just told a moderator she's going to be banned for talking about something, right?

I always love the "they're going to ban me for saying this" fearmongering element, like it adds truth to what you're saying. Hint: It doesn't, especially when you're agreeing with a forum moderator while you're doing it.

ncct07
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby ncct07 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:47 pm

You do realize you just told a moderator she's going to be banned for talking about something, right?


No, I don't think she does. She doesn't realize you're a Mod, either.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:30 pm

To get this thread back on track, please take time to visit LST and see what recent grads are doing to help get better information for prospective students. It may take time, but I feel this organization is starting to attract enough attention that something might happen.

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Sentry
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby Sentry » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:42 pm

UChi looks pretty good according to LST.

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bk1
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby bk1 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:52 pm

JeanMarie wrote:Be careful posting things about how law schools are lying about their employment figures. This forum has been posters for discussing it.


--ImageRemoved--

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:08 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:3) I think that we risk getting banned for talking about this here.

You do realize you just told a moderator she's going to be banned for talking about something, right?

I always love the "they're going to ban me for saying this" fearmongering element, like it adds truth to what you're saying. Hint: It doesn't, especially when you're agreeing with a forum moderator while you're doing it.


I have a distrust of big brother, brother. 8)

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:09 pm

bk1 wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:Be careful posting things about how law schools are lying about their employment figures. This forum has been posters for discussing it.


--ImageRemoved--


I swear: Obama has the best awkward moves.

miamiman
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby miamiman » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:21 pm

Truthfully, I was somewhat surprised by the range of responses they received from law schools. True, the majority of the schools with little to gain or lose (the T14) are absent from their list but a few with a lot to lose and very little, if anything, to gain (American, Santa Clara come to mind) complied.

EDIT: they simply responded -- they have not as yet complied. apologies for the confusion.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby jenesaislaw » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:01 pm

miamiman wrote:Truthfully, I was somewhat surprised by the range of responses they received from law schools. True, the majority of the schools with little to gain or lose (the T14) are absent from their list but a few with a lot to lose and very little, if anything, to gain (American, Santa Clara come to mind) complied.

EDIT: they simply responded -- they have not as yet complied. apologies for the confusion.


I think the prevailing attitude that American and Santa Clara - and other schools like them - stand only to lose with nothing to gain is exactly where they stand to gain by complying.

Santa Clara actually does pretty well with placement relative to its rank. Beyond misconceptions, prospectives having reasonable expectations about potential outcomes can benefit all parties. A lot depends on a school's mission: Where do they see themselves fitting into their local community? What about the broader community? These considerations are far more nuanced than does X school place well in biglaw? That is, and perhaps should be, some schools' mission. Many schools are very proud of how well they place in the local community, and none of the placement stats to date do them justice. This is their opportunity.

imbored25
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby imbored25 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:42 am

this might be a dumb question but what do you guys think should be the minimum % or grads reporting salaries should be to justify going to that school, 50? 60?

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby jenesaislaw » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:06 am

What do you want from your degree? What kind of job? What kind of salary will you need to stay afloat in your early years post-law school? I don't think there's a simple answer for "what is the appropriate threshold?" Really, the right question to ask about the '% of salary ranges known to LST' figure is "what do I think this means for the rest of the class?" The relationship between this answer and what you want from your degree is important. When you can't tell how they match up, that's when you have an issue and probably shouldn't attend.

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Gotti
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Re: Law School Transparency -- truth in employment advertising?

Postby Gotti » Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:25 am

Why would someone get banned for talking about this? Is that a dumb question...?




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