How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

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masterthearts
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How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby masterthearts » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:15 am

I need health benefits when I grad law school due to a chronic illness that requres treatments and medications. I just want to grad and get a job with health benefits. Part time/temp work won't do it for me.
All these blogs out there are scaring me. Maybe I should become a Physician's Assistant? (I'm not good enough in the sciences to be able to get into med school)
I'm reading that the bottom 25% of the law school admits are subsidizing the top 75% with scholarships, full rides, etc. so that the law school can look good for USNWR.
How scary is that!
All of you are still going to law school? What should I do..became a Physician's Assistant (where I know there are decent paying jobs), or law?

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KMaine
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby KMaine » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:41 am

I think that most people here will give you the same answer. It seems like you have no burning desire to go to law school. It seems like the P.A. route it just as (if not more) attractive to you. I have no idea how secure that field is, but the law seems to be a tough one to crack at this point. Without more information, I would have to say don't go to law school.

masterthearts
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby masterthearts » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:45 am

I do REALLY want to attend law school. I am trying to gauge how bad the job market really is. Is it that bad, or are there just some bloggers out there over-exaggerating?

SuperFreak
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby SuperFreak » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:55 am

Physician's Assistant.

CanadianWolf
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:55 am

With a 3.8 GPA at an Ivey League undergraduate school, why do you think that you are too weak for medical school ? My understanding of medical school is that it is a grueling experience in terms of hours, workload & memorization, but is not necessarily unusually intellectually demanding--at least not so demanding that a 3.8 GPA from an Ivey should shy away.
Pursue medical school or schooling to become a physician's assistant before law school if your main concern is economic stability. Otherwise try to do well on the LSAT & attend law school on a full tuition scholarship so that you can afford to pay a PA or doctor for stress relief medicine afterward.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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chadwick218
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby chadwick218 » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:59 am

It's really that bad. I'm being honest when I say that for most people the risk-reward simply isn't worth it unless you are attending a T14 + maybe UT, UCLA, or Vandy. Even then, you really need to be in the top 1/3 to have "decent" job prospects.

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rayiner
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby rayiner » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:04 am

Go to Harvard.

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doyleoil
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby doyleoil » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:06 am

rayiner wrote:Go to Harvard.


I suppose. I would've said Yale/Stanford, but what do I know. The thing is, if you're smart and mature, you'll prolly do well anywhere in the T14. But self-awareness is not most people's strong suit.

lsatbdog
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby lsatbdog » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:10 am

Disclaimer: This is coming from the perspective of someone who decided not to go to law school, including a T20 I was accepted to with a small scholarship.

From everything I could gather when I was considering law school, it really is that bad out there. When I started looking into outcomes I came across the scamblogs and thought they had a point, but noticed they were mainly from grads of lower ranked schools who were deep in debt, so I took them with a grain of salt. Calling practicing attorneys and hearing how bad the job market was made me think that maybe these scamblogs were on to something. The first thing most would say to me when they heard that I was a prospective law student was to know what I was getting myself into. Talking to current law students from a range of schools made me think things really were bad out there, as many 2Ls and 3Ls i spoke with had nothing lined up.

The moment that sealed the deal for me when I was meeting with career services at the T20 I was accepted to and asking about job prospects. She said to be compettive for large firms one should be in the top 15%, but that most graduates could eventually find some type of legal employment, and the decision to attend was all relative to debt-I said I would be taking on around 100K or so (Scholly, personal savings and a bit of family help-sticker with living expenses would be like 180K). She said pretty much verbatim "I mean thats a lot of money, and I'm not telling you what to do...but 40%, maybe 50% at best, of our outgoing class had a job at graduation". At that time, I decided that since I didn't have some burning desire to practice law, I was going to pursue other avenues.

tl dr; Go to law school only if you have some burning desire to practice law, and get into a decent school with a SUBSTANTIAL scholarship.

Good luck

revolution724
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby revolution724 » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:25 am

I honestly don't know how the physician's assistant thing works as for as additional education, etc. Is it something you could give a go for, say, five years and then re-evaluate your thoughts about law school? The beauty is, you don't have to start law school the semester after you graduate from college; it's not a now or never issue. However, if your alternative requires many more years of school, I grant that that may reduce your interest in more education and more debt later.

ajmanyjah
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby ajmanyjah » Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:14 am

masterthearts wrote:I need health benefits when I grad law school due to a chronic illness that requres treatments and medications. I just want to grad and get a job with health benefits. Part time/temp work won't do it for me.
All these blogs out there are scaring me. Maybe I should become a Physician's Assistant? (I'm not good enough in the sciences to be able to get into med school)
I'm reading that the bottom 25% of the law school admits are subsidizing the top 75% with scholarships, full rides, etc. so that the law school can look good for USNWR.
How scary is that!
All of you are still going to law school? What should I do..became a Physician's Assistant (where I know there are decent paying jobs), or law?


Just move to Massachusetts and declare no earnings? And if you are bad at science please don't become a PA---healthcare is important

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thexfactor
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby thexfactor » Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:16 am

go to med school or become a PA. I would be very hesitant to go to any law school below vandy.

ajmanyjah
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby ajmanyjah » Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:18 am

CanadianWolf wrote:With a 3.8 GPA at an Ivey League undergraduate school, why do you think that you are too weak for medical school ? My understanding of medical school is that it is a grueling experience in terms of hours, workload & memorization, but is not necessarily unusually intellectually demanding--at least not so demanding that a 3.8 GPA from an Ivey should shy away.
Pursue medical school or schooling to become a physician's assistant before law school if your main concern is economic stability. Otherwise try to do well on the LSAT & attend law school on a full tuition scholarship so that you can afford to pay a PA or doctor for stress relief medicine afterward.


LoL at high GPA from an Ivy being automatically difficult and demanding to get....

I mean, if he majored in a hard science or math, a 3.8 is hard to get---from even a third tier public school. If he majored in poli sci or the like, he has no idea of the difficulty of a science/science practitioners degree (though it certainly does not require the overall intelligence of a research degree, it is difficult coursework that you can't write mushy essays to get out of)

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DoubleChecks
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:30 am

being in law school, having tons of friends in med school AND PA school, id recommend PA.

it is a pretty good field right now, only 2 yrs (sometimes 3) to get it done, and you can CHOOSE the area of practice you want. pretty sure it is a burgeoning field? but i havent heard stories of PAs having a hard time in this economic climate...though most health fields are more recession proof than other jobs. the only downside is it is heavily dependent on the doc you work for. if he is a bad boss, you have a hard time. but lucky for PAs, they can easily transition from anything to everything; i.e. plastic surgery to ophthalmology to oncology, as long as they can find a boss (doctor) willing to take them on.

unlike med school, the PA path is MUCH shorter and ends up being very flexible. you do a lot of the work the docs may do, once again depending on your boss. i guess thats the real one variable.

hours are usually great, like a 9-5 job. pay tends to be around 80k ish id say, some less, some more (potential to make more if, say, you get certified to do things on the job. i.e. one PA i know is now allowed to do botox injections and she makes a very nice bonus for that).

i think, however, that the PA field tends to be female dominant. i dont actually know, just all the PAs i know are women, so that could be something to consider if you're a guy and that'd bother you. personally, id never do med school. longer and more stressful path than law school, and though more secure, i really REALLY dont think it is worth it (even if you specialize).

whymeohgodno
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby whymeohgodno » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:05 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:being in law school, having tons of friends in med school AND PA school, id recommend PA.

it is a pretty good field right now, only 2 yrs (sometimes 3) to get it done, and you can CHOOSE the area of practice you want. pretty sure it is a burgeoning field? but i havent heard stories of PAs having a hard time in this economic climate...though most health fields are more recession proof than other jobs. the only downside is it is heavily dependent on the doc you work for. if he is a bad boss, you have a hard time. but lucky for PAs, they can easily transition from anything to everything; i.e. plastic surgery to ophthalmology to oncology, as long as they can find a boss (doctor) willing to take them on.

unlike med school, the PA path is MUCH shorter and ends up being very flexible. you do a lot of the work the docs may do, once again depending on your boss. i guess thats the real one variable.

hours are usually great, like a 9-5 job. pay tends to be around 80k ish id say, some less, some more (potential to make more if, say, you get certified to do things on the job. i.e. one PA i know is now allowed to do botox injections and she makes a very nice bonus for that).

i think, however, that the PA field tends to be female dominant. i dont actually know, just all the PAs i know are women, so that could be something to consider if you're a guy and that'd bother you. personally, id never do med school. longer and more stressful path than law school, and though more secure, i really REALLY dont think it is worth it (even if you specialize).


Orly

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DoubleChecks
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:33 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:being in law school, having tons of friends in med school AND PA school, id recommend PA.

it is a pretty good field right now, only 2 yrs (sometimes 3) to get it done, and you can CHOOSE the area of practice you want. pretty sure it is a burgeoning field? but i havent heard stories of PAs having a hard time in this economic climate...though most health fields are more recession proof than other jobs. the only downside is it is heavily dependent on the doc you work for. if he is a bad boss, you have a hard time. but lucky for PAs, they can easily transition from anything to everything; i.e. plastic surgery to ophthalmology to oncology, as long as they can find a boss (doctor) willing to take them on.

unlike med school, the PA path is MUCH shorter and ends up being very flexible. you do a lot of the work the docs may do, once again depending on your boss. i guess thats the real one variable.

hours are usually great, like a 9-5 job. pay tends to be around 80k ish id say, some less, some more (potential to make more if, say, you get certified to do things on the job. i.e. one PA i know is now allowed to do botox injections and she makes a very nice bonus for that).

i think, however, that the PA field tends to be female dominant. i dont actually know, just all the PAs i know are women, so that could be something to consider if you're a guy and that'd bother you. personally, id never do med school. longer and more stressful path than law school, and though more secure, i really REALLY dont think it is worth it (even if you specialize).


Orly


ya-rly

lol, who would argue the path of law school is less stressful than the medical school path? esp. if you take into account the subsequent stages to even become a doctor (residency, internships, possible fellowships, etc.)

acrossthelake
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby acrossthelake » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:34 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:being in law school, having tons of friends in med school AND PA school, id recommend PA.

it is a pretty good field right now, only 2 yrs (sometimes 3) to get it done, and you can CHOOSE the area of practice you want. pretty sure it is a burgeoning field? but i havent heard stories of PAs having a hard time in this economic climate...though most health fields are more recession proof than other jobs. the only downside is it is heavily dependent on the doc you work for. if he is a bad boss, you have a hard time. but lucky for PAs, they can easily transition from anything to everything; i.e. plastic surgery to ophthalmology to oncology, as long as they can find a boss (doctor) willing to take them on.

unlike med school, the PA path is MUCH shorter and ends up being very flexible. you do a lot of the work the docs may do, once again depending on your boss. i guess thats the real one variable.

hours are usually great, like a 9-5 job. pay tends to be around 80k ish id say, some less, some more (potential to make more if, say, you get certified to do things on the job. i.e. one PA i know is now allowed to do botox injections and she makes a very nice bonus for that).

i think, however, that the PA field tends to be female dominant. i dont actually know, just all the PAs i know are women, so that could be something to consider if you're a guy and that'd bother you. personally, id never do med school. longer and more stressful path than law school, and though more secure, i really REALLY dont think it is worth it (even if you specialize).


Orly


ya-rly

lol, who would argue the path of law school is less stressful than the medical school path? esp. if you take into account the subsequent stages to even become a doctor (residency, internships, possible fellowships, etc.)


The medical school path is easily the most stressful path one could possibly take. Residency makes biglaw complainers look like whiners.

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ResolutePear
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:38 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:being in law school, having tons of friends in med school AND PA school, id recommend PA.

it is a pretty good field right now, only 2 yrs (sometimes 3) to get it done, and you can CHOOSE the area of practice you want. pretty sure it is a burgeoning field? but i havent heard stories of PAs having a hard time in this economic climate...though most health fields are more recession proof than other jobs. the only downside is it is heavily dependent on the doc you work for. if he is a bad boss, you have a hard time. but lucky for PAs, they can easily transition from anything to everything; i.e. plastic surgery to ophthalmology to oncology, as long as they can find a boss (doctor) willing to take them on.

unlike med school, the PA path is MUCH shorter and ends up being very flexible. you do a lot of the work the docs may do, once again depending on your boss. i guess thats the real one variable.

hours are usually great, like a 9-5 job. pay tends to be around 80k ish id say, some less, some more (potential to make more if, say, you get certified to do things on the job. i.e. one PA i know is now allowed to do botox injections and she makes a very nice bonus for that).

i think, however, that the PA field tends to be female dominant. i dont actually know, just all the PAs i know are women, so that could be something to consider if you're a guy and that'd bother you. personally, id never do med school. longer and more stressful path than law school, and though more secure, i really REALLY dont think it is worth it (even if you specialize).


Orly


ya-rly

lol, who would argue the path of law school is less stressful than the medical school path? esp. if you take into account the subsequent stages to even become a doctor (residency, internships, possible fellowships, etc.)


The medical school path is easily the most stressful path one could possibly take. Residency makes biglaw complainers look like whiners.


It's all relative. You do your time and it usually pans out pretty nicely after 10-15 years.

Can you say the same about law? I know of law firm partners still putting in 80 hour work weeks after 15 years.

270910
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby 270910 » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:41 pm

ResolutePear wrote:It's all relative. You do your time and it usually pans out pretty nicely after 10-15 years.

Can you say the same about law? I know of law firm partners still putting in 80 hour work weeks after 15 years.


+1. Med and law are often compared, and both have enormous but different stress / pressure. Especially in our economic times, I think law school is more savage to people's psyches - perhaps in large part BECAUSE it is so artificial when compared to a field like medicine.

To OP: It's awful out there. Un and underemployed grads everywhere. Stay away.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:45 pm

ResolutePear wrote:It's all relative. You do your time and it usually pans out pretty nicely after 10-15 years.

Can you say the same about law? I know of law firm partners still putting in 80 hour work weeks after 15 years.


i wasnt comparing the medical profession with the law profession. i said the path to becoming a full fledged doctor is way worse/stressful than the path to becoming a full fledged lawyer, especially if you specialize as a doc (which seems more the norm than becoming a family practitioner).

acrossthelake
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby acrossthelake » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:47 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:It's all relative. You do your time and it usually pans out pretty nicely after 10-15 years.

Can you say the same about law? I know of law firm partners still putting in 80 hour work weeks after 15 years.


i wasnt comparing the medical profession with the law profession. i said the path to becoming a full fledged doctor is way worse/stressful than the path to becoming a full fledged lawyer, especially if you specialize as a doc (which seems more the norm than becoming a family practitioner).


My point was in regard to the path as well.

whymeohgodno
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby whymeohgodno » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:58 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:It's all relative. You do your time and it usually pans out pretty nicely after 10-15 years.

Can you say the same about law? I know of law firm partners still putting in 80 hour work weeks after 15 years.


i wasnt comparing the medical profession with the law profession. i said the path to becoming a full fledged doctor is way worse/stressful than the path to becoming a full fledged lawyer, especially if you specialize as a doc (which seems more the norm than becoming a family practitioner).


My point was in regard to the path as well.


Med school - more difficult, but great job prospects if you get through it

Law school - much easier, but shitty job prospects unless you graduate top 10%

So which one is more stressful? I don't think anyone denies that becoming a doctor is exponentially harder than becoming a lawyer...

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ResolutePear
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:03 pm

disco_barred wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:It's all relative. You do your time and it usually pans out pretty nicely after 10-15 years.

Can you say the same about law? I know of law firm partners still putting in 80 hour work weeks after 15 years.


+1. Med and law are often compared, and both have enormous but different stress / pressure. Especially in our economic times, I think law school is more savage to people's psyches - perhaps in large part BECAUSE it is so artificial when compared to a field like medicine.

To OP: It's awful out there. Un and underemployed grads everywhere. Stay away.


I would usually say to take a shot for it... but naaaah - this guy's employment is the difference between life and death.

Also, I've looked into PA and Med School myself. You have no worry of finding employment. AT. ALLLLLLL.

Now, as for pissing contest between PA's and MD/DO's (Yes, there is elitism between the different schools of medicine):
The general train of thought is: it depends.

In order of difficulty and competitiveness of entering a program it's: MD -> DO -> PA

You need pre-med requirements met for MD and DO: Between 1-2 years of science/math classes. And you need good grades in these: ~3.8-3.9 GPA on the pre-med classes is about competitive for most schools.

PA programs are a bit more relaxed on which pre-med classes you need, but you'll benefit from doing them anyways. I've seen PA programs accepting 3.0GPA applicants.

They both have their own standardized tests that test your premed-ness. You need high scores, none of that 50th percentile junk you see with LSAT.

Soooo you can go to whichever one you want. Where to?
MD/DO if you think you might ever want to research an be independent. PA if you just want a working knowledge.

What makes being a PA so great is.. you can move between specialties with relative ease while what makes MD/DO great is the research opportunities and prestige that comes along with it. You can do almost everything that an MD/DO can do as a PA - write prescriptions, checkups, cut people up, etc. - under the watch of a doctor.. and that varies state to state. Some states just require a phone call every couple weeks just to check up. Other's require ~5 hours of in-office time a month.

As for medical liability insurance: MD/DO's are getting raped, while PA's don't. The insurance difference is the difference between a 40 year old man driving a Corolla and a 18 y/o driving a racecar-spec Corvette. It's just that bad for MD's. They still come out ahead, though.

Again, if you're just dying to start cutting people up, go PA. If you want to revolutionize, innovate, etc. then go ahead and be an MD/DO. Unlike law, yes - your research/deviation will be a special snowflake.

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ResolutePear
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:06 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:It's all relative. You do your time and it usually pans out pretty nicely after 10-15 years.

Can you say the same about law? I know of law firm partners still putting in 80 hour work weeks after 15 years.


i wasnt comparing the medical profession with the law profession. i said the path to becoming a full fledged doctor is way worse/stressful than the path to becoming a full fledged lawyer, especially if you specialize as a doc (which seems more the norm than becoming a family practitioner).


My point was in regard to the path as well.


Med school - more difficult, but great job prospects if you get through it

Law school - much easier, but shitty job prospects unless you graduate top 10%

So which one is more stressful? I don't think anyone denies that becoming a doctor is exponentially harder than becoming a lawyer...


It's not. They're just vastly different schools and the reason why it seems so hard to us is because we're not committed to that by large. Biology majors with a decent GPA and excellent science GPA's which is required anyways for the BS in most schools consider it an extension/specialization of their knowledge.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: How bad is it out there? I wan't to go to law school..don't

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:15 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:So which one is more stressful? I don't think anyone denies that becoming a doctor is exponentially harder than becoming a lawyer...


It's not. They're just vastly different schools and the reason why it seems so hard to us is because we're not committed to that by large. Biology majors with a decent GPA and excellent science GPA's which is required anyways for the BS in most schools consider it an extension/specialization of their knowledge.


iunno, what was his statement? that no one denies becoming a doctor is much harder than becoming a lawyer? such a generalized statement id have to agree with, and you'd be hard pressed to find a reason to support the opposite.

but iunno if thats what you're exactly going for whyme. if you like science more (and do well in science), id imagine the health field would be less stressful for you than law; likewise if you like reading and writing, etc.




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