Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:08 pm

miamiman wrote:
Rand M. wrote:
FlanAl wrote:Anyone else think that having a 50% chance at a 160,000 salary is better than the zero percent chance most arts/humanities majors have before law school?


Maybe not when it comes at a cost of a couple hundred thousand dollars and three years of foregone income and advancement.


The opportunity cost argument is weak at best and more likely to be ridiculous for the majority of law students. Humanities majors from most colleges face careers as baristas or Borders employees. The advancement/pay there is negligible.

The real issue is debt + likelihood of paying off that debt.


I know somebody who has a BA psych major and is working in a borders. I asked her why wouldn't she go teach at a elementary school or something of the like and her response was: "I hate teaching. It's so below me."

Really?

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johnnyutah
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby johnnyutah » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:18 pm

miamiman wrote:
Rand M. wrote:
FlanAl wrote:Anyone else think that having a 50% chance at a 160,000 salary is better than the zero percent chance most arts/humanities majors have before law school?


Maybe not when it comes at a cost of a couple hundred thousand dollars and three years of foregone income and advancement.


The opportunity cost argument is weak at best and more likely to be ridiculous for the majority of law students. Humanities majors from most colleges face careers as baristas or Borders employees. The advancement/pay there is negligible.

The real issue is debt + likelihood of paying off that debt.

The debt isn't the only issue, though. I'm a 3L, and I'm one of those t-14 students that didn't get a firm job, but I'm still glad I went to law school. As long as I can find some kind of legal job that pays 35k/year or more, I'll be financially about as well off as I was before law school (after factoring in debt service) and I'll be doing work that is infinitely preferable to the retail service jobs I had before.

My point is that it's not just the opportunity cost and the money; it's the quality of the work. Retail jobs are soul-killing in a way that even doc review isn't.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:20 pm

johnnyutah wrote:
miamiman wrote:
Rand M. wrote:
FlanAl wrote:Anyone else think that having a 50% chance at a 160,000 salary is better than the zero percent chance most arts/humanities majors have before law school?


Maybe not when it comes at a cost of a couple hundred thousand dollars and three years of foregone income and advancement.


The opportunity cost argument is weak at best and more likely to be ridiculous for the majority of law students. Humanities majors from most colleges face careers as baristas or Borders employees. The advancement/pay there is negligible.

The real issue is debt + likelihood of paying off that debt.

The debt isn't the only issue, though. I'm a 3L, and I'm one of those t-14 students that didn't get a firm job, but I'm still glad I went to law school. As long as I can find some kind of legal job that pays 35k/year or more, I'll be financially about as well off as I was before law school (after factoring in debt service) and I'll be doing work that is infinitely preferable to the retail service jobs I had before.

My point is that it's not just the opportunity cost and the money; it's the quality of the work. Retail jobs are soul-killing in a way that even doc review isn't.


I couldn't have said it any better.

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Rand M.
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Rand M. » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:22 pm

Blindmelon wrote:T6 or hang it up is pretty much right.


Even as a soon to be T6 1L, I really still feel a little antsy going in. Hopin' for the best.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:26 pm

Rand M. wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:T6 or hang it up is pretty much right.


Even as a soon to be T6 1L, I really still feel a little antsy going in. Hopin' for the best.


Well, one thing is certain - by the time you're out.. we'll have a Republican president. All the more reason to land that 160k job and perhaps get a big law spouse while you're at it.

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johnnyutah
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby johnnyutah » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:27 pm

Rand M. wrote:I must say that the prospect of not having a successful OCI frightens me. I can't imagine what it's like to not get anything at all.

It's not a big deal. Seriously.

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Doritos
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Doritos » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:09 pm

What about IBR/LRAP?

ajmanyjah
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ajmanyjah » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:23 pm

JeanMarie wrote:Law school can be a disastrous decision. A year ago, no one knew how the structural problems in the law job market would affect those from T14 schools or associates in BigLaw. Now we know all know better. This is more than a question of a "bad economy." The problems were present before, but the bad economy has exacerbated them.

What happens to the BigLaw lawyer with a family who gets laid off? Think she can just quickly find a job elsewhere? Not so fast. These are my friends who you are talking about. People from good schools, with good grades, who are now in a terrible situation.

I went to a T14, but no one I knew personally landed a BigLaw job at graduation, and only a handful of graduates found government positions. I still regret my decision. And those with $100,000+ debt? That is a ruined life. Imagine the toll that that kind of debt can take on your family or your marriage prospects when your income is barely enough to service it.

If you want information on what I did and where I ended up, you can message me privately.

A final question: do you think that the naysayers are exaggerating when they are telling you that law school, knowing what we all know today, is a stupid move? What will you say in three years when, inevitably for most of you, you end up in a similar position?

ADDITIONAL REMARK (Thanks, for asking the question): Career Services kept us optimistic until the last semester. I guess by then we had already paid all our tuition money. Even in April of graduating year, my classmates and I thought we would find something and that our education was worth the money. We would even make jokes about the "sky-is-falling!" blogs. It's as though we were deluding ourselves.

IF YOU WANT PERSONAL INFORMATION ON MY STATS AND BACKGROUND, AS SOME OF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, PLEASE SEND ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE. I WILL NOT RESPOND IN PUBLIC.


You can service that amount of debt on 75k a year, if you aren't going into the law for anything more than a fat biweekly check

I love how you only real idea of employment is BIGLAW...

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vanwinkle
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:27 pm

What's the point of starting a warning thread if you won't post your stats? "I had grades of an undisclosed nature at a T14 and I'm unemployable!" isn't all that informative.

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FlanAl
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby FlanAl » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:29 pm

Hey pointbreak tar. I'm sorry to hear that you didn't land a firm job but really want to thank you for coming on and offering a different perspective from the "I'm not making 160 I should have never gone to law school and neither should you". Thanks

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JazzOne
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JazzOne » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:31 pm

vanwinkle wrote:What's the point of starting a warning thread if you won't post your stats? "I had grades of an undisclosed nature at a T14 and I'm unemployable!" isn't all that informative.

It's kind of like employment surveys. Undisclosed means "too shitty to admit even on an anonymous survey/forum."

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:32 pm

ajmanyjah wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:Law school can be a disastrous decision. A year ago, no one knew how the structural problems in the law job market would affect those from T14 schools or associates in BigLaw. Now we know all know better. This is more than a question of a "bad economy." The problems were present before, but the bad economy has exacerbated them.

What happens to the BigLaw lawyer with a family who gets laid off? Think she can just quickly find a job elsewhere? Not so fast. These are my friends who you are talking about. People from good schools, with good grades, who are now in a terrible situation.

I went to a T14, but no one I knew personally landed a BigLaw job at graduation, and only a handful of graduates found government positions. I still regret my decision. And those with $100,000+ debt? That is a ruined life. Imagine the toll that that kind of debt can take on your family or your marriage prospects when your income is barely enough to service it.

If you want information on what I did and where I ended up, you can message me privately.

A final question: do you think that the naysayers are exaggerating when they are telling you that law school, knowing what we all know today, is a stupid move? What will you say in three years when, inevitably for most of you, you end up in a similar position?

ADDITIONAL REMARK (Thanks, for asking the question): Career Services kept us optimistic until the last semester. I guess by then we had already paid all our tuition money. Even in April of graduating year, my classmates and I thought we would find something and that our education was worth the money. We would even make jokes about the "sky-is-falling!" blogs. It's as though we were deluding ourselves.

IF YOU WANT PERSONAL INFORMATION ON MY STATS AND BACKGROUND, AS SOME OF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, PLEASE SEND ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE. I WILL NOT RESPOND IN PUBLIC.


You can service that amount of debt on 75k a year, if you aren't going into the law for anything more than a fat biweekly check

I love how you only real idea of employment is BIGLAW...


And that's the truth.

Though, from what I've seen with people I know in real life is that getting a job at a firm is the next best thing to landing a clerkship. With firm experience, you're an asset to either a smaller, more laid back practice or even an asset in your own right if you decide to start your own practice.

At the end of the day, for myself, the ability to open a practice is considered increasingly valuable ITE where people are forced to innovate and provide service in a new light.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:36 pm

JazzOne wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:What's the point of starting a warning thread if you won't post your stats? "I had grades of an undisclosed nature at a T14 and I'm unemployable!" isn't all that informative.

It's kind of like employment surveys. Undisclosed means "too shitty to admit even on an anonymous survey/forum."


Yeah, I never understood that.

You're going to get outted to a firm... by your grades? If anything outs you, it'll be your writing style.

As long as you can leave somebody guessing between 2 or more(or an undefined amount) people, I'd consider anonymity preserved for most practical cases.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:39 pm

JazzOne wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:What's the point of starting a warning thread if you won't post your stats? "I had grades of an undisclosed nature at a T14 and I'm unemployable!" isn't all that informative.

It's kind of like employment surveys. Undisclosed means "too shitty to admit even on an anonymous survey/forum."

Exactly. Especially when you can give a range/approximate rank instead of an exact number, and you've never posted here before to indicate your exact school. There's no reason in this case not to, unless the grades are poor enough to explain why OP was unemployable.

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drdolittle
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby drdolittle » Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:26 pm

vanwinkle wrote:What's the point of starting a warning thread if you won't post your stats? "I had grades of an undisclosed nature at a T14 and I'm unemployable!" isn't all that informative.


Yeah, if OP's really that representative of T14 job prospects, or any other school for that matter, s/he should have nothing to fear by disclosing some approximate info re. school, rank & specialty. Without it, this thread's useless.

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chadwick218
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby chadwick218 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:44 pm

drdolittle wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:What's the point of starting a warning thread if you won't post your stats? "I had grades of an undisclosed nature at a T14 and I'm unemployable!" isn't all that informative.


Yeah, if OP's really that representative of T14 job prospects, or any other school for that matter, s/he should have nothing to fear by disclosing some approximate info re. school, rank & specialty. Without it, this thread's useless.


I think that the OPs school is really pretty obvious. There are two schools in the T14 that have really struggled to place in recent years. I think that the thread still has merit. With that said, I think that the OP would gain a great deal of credibility by simpling disclosing her situation.

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johnnyutah
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby johnnyutah » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:25 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:What's the point of starting a warning thread if you won't post your stats? "I had grades of an undisclosed nature at a T14 and I'm unemployable!" isn't all that informative.

It's kind of like employment surveys. Undisclosed means "too shitty to admit even on an anonymous survey/forum."

Exactly. Especially when you can give a range/approximate rank instead of an exact number, and you've never posted here before to indicate your exact school. There's no reason in this case not to, unless the grades are poor enough to explain why OP was unemployable.

To be fair, you don't have to have awful grades to not find a job. I'm a t-14 3L who struck out at both last year's and this year's OCI despite grades that place me somewhere between median and top third. OP's unwillingness to disclose does seem to indicate that OP has done bad, but that doesn't necessarily mean that OP's views on job prospects are totally unfounded.

Note: I'm still happy I went to law school.

Tsispilos
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Tsispilos » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:40 pm

Even with 100k+ debt, IBR kind of de-horrible-izes it. Sure, it still sucks a fat chunk out of your paycheck, but it pretty much guarantees that you won't (1) have to work until your death to pay that shit off and (2) makes sure that your loan payment leaves you enough money for store-brand groceries, cheap rent, and a used Honda. Yeah, it's not the life you were promised when you signed up for law school, but you're not gonna die either, and for most of us, we'll still be better off than we would have been without law school--just not as much better off.

IBR is pretty much the only reason I haven't shot myself though.

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blackwater88
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby blackwater88 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:52 pm

Worst comes to worst, you can always do Border Patrol or military. Who doesn't wanna go running around the border chasing illegals? :D

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Doritos
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Doritos » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:07 pm

blackwater88 wrote:Worst comes to worst, you can always do Border Patrol or military. Who doesn't wanna go running around the border chasing illegals? :D


Or you could live off the grid in the mountains somewhere so you don't have to pay back your loans.

--ImageRemoved--

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:08 pm

blackwater88 wrote:Worst comes to worst, you can always do Border Patrol or military. Who doesn't wanna go running around the border chasing illegals? :D


Neo Nazi's.

Oh.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:09 pm

Doritos wrote:
blackwater88 wrote:Worst comes to worst, you can always do Border Patrol or military. Who doesn't wanna go running around the border chasing illegals? :D


Or you could live off the grid in the mountains somewhere so you don't have to pay back your loans.

--ImageRemoved--


People kid around about that stuff - but I've sat around and debated about going into the wilderness for a year and see what I come back with... if I come back.

GoBroncos22!
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby GoBroncos22! » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:10 pm

Even though I am no where near T14, I can understand your argument-though I dont necessarily agree with it 100% This is why I want to go to my state school, the ONLY school in the state, and get a full ride.

whymeohgodno
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby whymeohgodno » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:14 pm

What's more depressing?

This thread? Or the fact that getting into t14 is hard enough to begin with?

digitalcntrl
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby digitalcntrl » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:16 pm

chadwick218 wrote:I think that the OPs school is really pretty obvious. There are two schools in the T14 that have really struggled to place in recent years. I think that the thread still has merit. With that said, I think that the OP would gain a great deal of credibility by simpling disclosing her situation.


Can you name said two schools, I am actually curious. To the rest, I think it is pretty obvious these days that even for highly ranked schools, LS is merely a shot at a decent job. The only assured good income grad school is med school. Start cracking open those Bio books folks.




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