Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

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romothesavior
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:37 pm

rayiner wrote:There is nothing in this thread that is an exaggeration.


OP claiming to not know anyone at her T14 in biglaw may have been an exaggeration...

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sundance95
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby sundance95 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:41 pm

This needs to be /threaded so badly...

JeanMarie
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JeanMarie » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:59 pm

romothesavior wrote:
rayiner wrote:There is nothing in this thread that is an exaggeration.


OP claiming to not know anyone at her T14 in biglaw may have been an exaggeration...


No it's not. I never spoke to anyone who I knew had gotten BigLaw. I did not say that no one at my T14 got BigLaw. None of the people who I knew got BigLaw. That's not a lie. Yes, my circle of friends was bigger than two people.

However, BigLaw is not the only question. The problem is that very few of us had any sort of decent job after graduation that would enable us to make ends meet.

You can keep acting like I'm exaggerating, but anyone who just graduated from my T14 reading this will know that I'm not.

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romothesavior
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:12 pm

JeanMarie wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
rayiner wrote:There is nothing in this thread that is an exaggeration.


OP claiming to not know anyone at her T14 in biglaw may have been an exaggeration...


No it's not. I never spoke to anyone who I knew had gotten BigLaw. I did not say that no one at my T14 got BigLaw. None of the people who I knew got BigLaw. That's not a lie. Yes, my circle of friends was bigger than two people.


I appreciate your message and I applaud your efforts in raising awareness of the risks of law school. But when you say patently stupid shit like this, it just undermines everything you say. Statistics say that at the very worst, roughly 1 out of 3 students (MAYBE 1/4 students) at your school will end up in biglaw. Either you hung out with the stupidest, most anti-social people on the planet during your three years of law school and never spoke to a soul outside of this group of friends, or you are just spewing nonsense.

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oldhippie
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby oldhippie » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:18 pm

law school is a calculated risk, as are many things in life. i am hopeful that many people have thought through/calculated the risk part of the equation and have chosen to take the risk with the understanding that they may not end up with a 6 figure salary, only 6 figure debt. each individual has to figure this out for him/herself. if one chooses to make a decision knowing the risk, it is certainly his or her right to do so.

the OP brings up more details about the risks involved. thank you for the information. we all have something additional to consider as we make our decisions. it would seem, then, that your work here is done.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Deuce » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:19 pm

romothesavior wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
rayiner wrote:There is nothing in this thread that is an exaggeration.


OP claiming to not know anyone at her T14 in biglaw may have been an exaggeration...


No it's not. I never spoke to anyone who I knew had gotten BigLaw. I did not say that no one at my T14 got BigLaw. None of the people who I knew got BigLaw. That's not a lie. Yes, my circle of friends was bigger than two people.


I appreciate your message and I applaud your efforts in raising awareness of the risks of law school. But when you say patently stupid shit like this, it just undermines everything you say. Statistics say that at the very worst, roughly 1 out of 3 students (MAYBE 1/4 students) at your school will end up in biglaw. Either you hung out with the stupidest, most anti-social people on the planet during your three years of law school and never spoke to a soul outside of this group of friends, or you are just spewing nonsense.


/thread

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rayiner
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby rayiner » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:20 pm

JeanMarie wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
rayiner wrote:There is nothing in this thread that is an exaggeration.


OP claiming to not know anyone at her T14 in biglaw may have been an exaggeration...


No it's not. I never spoke to anyone who I knew had gotten BigLaw. I did not say that no one at my T14 got BigLaw. None of the people who I knew got BigLaw. That's not a lie. Yes, my circle of friends was bigger than two people.

However, BigLaw is not the only question. The problem is that very few of us had any sort of decent job after graduation that would enable us to make ends meet.

You can keep acting like I'm exaggerating, but anyone who just graduated from my T14 reading this will know that I'm not.


I'm not going to say you're exaggerating, it's just that I think your circle of friends is highly aberrational. Most of my friends have a 2L SA offer, and our OCI was a lot worse than yours (if you're class of 2010).

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:20 pm

JeanMarie wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
rayiner wrote:There is nothing in this thread that is an exaggeration.


OP claiming to not know anyone at her T14 in biglaw may have been an exaggeration...


No it's not. I never spoke to anyone who I knew had gotten BigLaw. I did not say that no one at my T14 got BigLaw. None of the people who I knew got BigLaw. That's not a lie. Yes, my circle of friends was bigger than two people.

However, BigLaw is not the only question. The problem is that very few of us had any sort of decent job after graduation that would enable us to make ends meet.

You can keep acting like I'm exaggerating, but anyone who just graduated from my T14 reading this will know that I'm not.


And herein lies your real problem.

If you don't know ANYONE in your T14 school that got into BigLaw, it would suggest that you may need to improve your networking skills. Which would suggest your social skills leave something to be desired. Which might be the crux of your employment issue. I mean that politely because I don't know your personal situation, but what you just said sent off a huge red flag to me.

Personally, I'm going to grad school for the alum network. I spent a couple years at a Big 4 public accounting firm as a consultant and learned first-hand time and time again that your network is the most important thing. If you're a charmer and solid at networking, you will be more successful coming out of Cooley than a total knucklehead coming from T14. T14 doesn't guarantee anything that you can't guarantee for yourself. (OK... maybe not quite Cooley ;) )

Most people don't go to MBA programs because they think the education in and of itself will land them a good job. It's because it is a bringing together of some pretty bright people to discuss ideas. I.e., you make friends, you network. Not networking is a great way to kill your career. Law school is similar in many ways but a bit more academic than MBA. Even so, it is a shame that you went through three years of law school at one of the best establishments in the country and didn't take the time to make stronger connections.

This isn't to dismiss your point as a whole. I think the point is a valid one, but for law school applicants reading this, I think the takeaway is, you need more than just a fancy piece of paper from T14 to get a good job. Maybe the fancy piece of paper was enough ten years ago, but you need to be a little more savvy than to just expect to ride the coattails of a nice degree and land on your feet nowadays.
Last edited by robotclubmember on Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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lzyovrachievr
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby lzyovrachievr » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:21 pm

I really thought this thread was dead.

Anyone have a zombie thread meme?

JeanMarie
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JeanMarie » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:23 pm

romothesavior wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
rayiner wrote:There is nothing in this thread that is an exaggeration.


OP claiming to not know anyone at her T14 in biglaw may have been an exaggeration...


No it's not. I never spoke to anyone who I knew had gotten BigLaw. I did not say that no one at my T14 got BigLaw. None of the people who I knew got BigLaw. That's not a lie. Yes, my circle of friends was bigger than two people.


I appreciate your message and I applaud your efforts in raising awareness of the risks of law school. But when you say patently stupid shit like this, it just undermines everything you say. Statistics say that at the very worst, roughly 1 out of 3 students (MAYBE 1/4 students) at your school will end up in biglaw. Either you hung out with the stupidest, most anti-social people on the planet during your three years of law school and never spoke to a soul outside of this group of friends, or you are just spewing nonsense.


For the last time. Those statistics overcount.

To the other guy: I'm talking about working as a BigLaw associate after graduation. Maybe around half got an SA position, maybe more, or maybe less.

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romothesavior
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:25 pm

Even if they overcount, they don't overcount by enough that a person with a handful of acquaintances at a T14 could reasonably say that they don't know a soul in biglaw.

JeanMarie
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JeanMarie » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:27 pm

romothesavior wrote:Even if they overcount, they don't overcount by enough that a person with a handful of acquaintances at a T14 could reasonably say that they don't know a soul in biglaw.


Take it for what it is. No-offered? Yep. Cold-offered? Yep. Deffered? Yep. Working at BigLaw now? Nope.

Continue trolling because you can't accept it.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Mike12188 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:36 pm

JeanMarie wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Even if they overcount, they don't overcount by enough that a person with a handful of acquaintances at a T14 could reasonably say that they don't know a soul in biglaw.


Take it for what it is. No-offered? Yep. Cold-offered? Yep. Deffered? Yep. Working at BigLaw now? Nope.

Continue trolling because you can't accept it.


Just because he's calling you out on your outlandish claims does not make him a troll. You should probably be out "networking" now instead of on an internet forum crying.

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rayiner
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby rayiner » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:43 pm

JeanMarie wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
OP claiming to not know anyone at her T14 in biglaw may have been an exaggeration...


No it's not. I never spoke to anyone who I knew had gotten BigLaw. I did not say that no one at my T14 got BigLaw. None of the people who I knew got BigLaw. That's not a lie. Yes, my circle of friends was bigger than two people.


I appreciate your message and I applaud your efforts in raising awareness of the risks of law school. But when you say patently stupid shit like this, it just undermines everything you say. Statistics say that at the very worst, roughly 1 out of 3 students (MAYBE 1/4 students) at your school will end up in biglaw. Either you hung out with the stupidest, most anti-social people on the planet during your three years of law school and never spoke to a soul outside of this group of friends, or you are just spewing nonsense.


For the last time. Those statistics overcount.

To the other guy: I'm talking about working as a BigLaw associate after graduation. Maybe around half got an SA position, maybe more, or maybe less.


The NLJ250 statistics are collected by NALP. If you're going to say they over-count you need some factual basis for your claim.

I can believe that between deferrals, no-offers, etc, you didn't know anyone in your group of friends who started at a big-law job at graduation. However, again I think your experience is unusual. I know people in class of 2010 at my T14 --- their estimates are about 70-80% getting SA offers. So right off the bat your 50% figure suggests that your experience is atypical.

That is not to say that your experience is unbelievable. If you're at Georgetown, which only had 40% NLJ250 placement for 2010, when you factor in deferrals (which aren't included in that data, although no-offers are) then you have roughly 25% of people actually starting at a big-law job. It's definitely believable that there would be some people who didn't know someone who started at a big law job when only 1 out of 4 people in the class did.

Look, I'm not saying that everything is hunky-dory. I'm just contrasting your anecdotal information to mine and the empirical data we have access to.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:56 pm

rayiner wrote:
When we talk about SA classes of 120 people getting cut to 20 you might think we're exaggerating, but we're not. It really is that bad.

There is nothing in this thread that is an exaggeration. Half the people who do OCI will not get something out of it. If they want private practice, there are no $100k jobs they can fall back on. If you miss 2L OCI, big law is effectively a shut door. All of those things are true. If you want to take that gamble after all of those things, then fine, but don't accuse people of exaggerating.


I read Above the Law--I know it's not exaggeration that the sky is falling.
The anecdote that she doesn't know anybody going into BigLaw felt either like an exaggeration or some weird abberration of who she is acquainted with, depending on the T14. I find that very unlikely at, say, UChicago. Not contesting the other claims, contesting that. You do so yourself here:

rayiner wrote:
The NLJ250 statistics are collected by NALP. If you're going to say they over-count you need some factual basis for your claim.

I can believe that between deferrals, no-offers, etc, you didn't know anyone in your group of friends who started at a big-law job at graduation. However, again I think your experience is unusual. I know people in class of 2010 at my T14 --- their estimates are about 70-80% getting SA offers. So right off the bat your 50% figure suggests that your experience is atypical.

That is not to say that your experience is unbelievable. If you're at Georgetown, which only had 40% NLJ250 placement for 2010, when you factor in deferrals (which aren't included in that data, although no-offers are) then you have roughly 25% of people actually starting at a big-law job. It's definitely believable that there would be some people who didn't know someone who started at a big law job when only 1 out of 4 people in the class did.

Look, I'm not saying that everything is hunky-dory. I'm just contrasting your anecdotal information to mine and the empirical data we have access to.

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romothesavior
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:03 pm

Okay, but what about someone like me who is really smart and hard-working? I plan to work as hard as I can and finish in the top 5% so I can transfer up to the T6. Then I can fall back on a prestigious PI job or work at the Hague or something if I don't get v20 or higher (I mean, come on... I'm not gonna work at some shitlaw v100 firm).

Do you still think law school is a disastrous decision for someone like me?

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby bk1 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:04 pm

romothesavior wrote:Okay, but what about someone like me who is really smart and hard-working? I plan to work as hard as I can and finish in the top 5% so I can transfer up to the T6. Then I can fall back on a prestigious PI job or work at the Hague or something if I don't get v20 or higher (I mean, come on... I'm not gonna work at some shitlaw v100 firm).

Do you still think law school is a disastrous decision for someone like me?


I think this makes attending WUSTL a great idea.

miamiman
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby miamiman » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:20 pm

romothesavior wrote:Okay, but what about someone like me who is really smart and hard-working? I plan to work as hard as I can and finish in the top 5% so I can transfer up to the T6. Then I can fall back on a prestigious PI job or work at the Hague or something if I don't get v20 or higher (I mean, come on... I'm not gonna work at some shitlaw v100 firm).

Do you still think law school is a disastrous decision for someone like me?


UChicago doesn't want T19 riffraf like you, Romo.

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romothesavior
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:22 pm

miamiman wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Okay, but what about someone like me who is really smart and hard-working? I plan to work as hard as I can and finish in the top 5% so I can transfer up to the T6. Then I can fall back on a prestigious PI job or work at the Hague or something if I don't get v20 or higher (I mean, come on... I'm not gonna work at some shitlaw v100 firm).

Do you still think law school is a disastrous decision for someone like me?


UChicago doesn't want T19 riffraf like you, Romo.


I can haz HYS?

miamiman
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby miamiman » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:24 pm

romothesavior wrote:
miamiman wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Okay, but what about someone like me who is really smart and hard-working? I plan to work as hard as I can and finish in the top 5% so I can transfer up to the T6. Then I can fall back on a prestigious PI job or work at the Hague or something if I don't get v20 or higher (I mean, come on... I'm not gonna work at some shitlaw v100 firm).

Do you still think law school is a disastrous decision for someone like me?


UChicago doesn't want T19 riffraf like you, Romo.


I can haz HYS?


No, you'll settle for GULC and like it.

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romothesavior
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:28 pm

--ImageRemoved--


Image

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Stanford4Me » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:30 pm

Oh, hai.




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