Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

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dresden doll
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby dresden doll » Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:51 pm

mpasi wrote:My T4 friend is an example of someone who relied on hard work instead of entitlement to find a job. She absolutely busted her ass to get that job. And again, I made it about OP, not every T-14 grad as you were doing, though, if every T-14 grad is like OP (which I doubt), then it is about them. It applies to anyone who thinks something should be handed to them just 'cause.

I didn't offer her up as some sort of gold standard. I simply used her as an example of someone can make it in this economy if they bust their asses hard enough, and are willing to compromise what they want in the short term. Why you think that's so unreasonable is beyond me. It's common sense.


I'm going to go out on a limb for a minute here and assume that your friend found her 70k job in a secondary market. Contrary to what some may imagine, secondary markets aren't boon for T14 grads who strike out in NYC/DC/Chi/Cali/wherever. Secondary market firms will demand ties and reasons why you're willing to work for them, particularly given your presTTTigious background. I attend CCN and I guarantee that none of my classmates was absolved from having to prove connections to TX when interviewing with TX firms.

That the applicant is attempting to 'settle' may be, and frequently is, incredibly obvious to the employers you're applying to (hence why many T14 grads swarming PI without a history of interest in PI don't manage to break into the field). No one particularly wants an employee that ran to them as last resort and hiding as much can be terribly difficult to manage.

TL;DR- elevating T4 grads who work in secondary markets as examples to T14ers who chase after and don't break into NYC firms is simplistic and blind to hiring realities in the legal profession.

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mpasi
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby mpasi » Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:15 pm

dresden doll wrote:
mpasi wrote:My T4 friend is an example of someone who relied on hard work instead of entitlement to find a job. She absolutely busted her ass to get that job. And again, I made it about OP, not every T-14 grad as you were doing, though, if every T-14 grad is like OP (which I doubt), then it is about them. It applies to anyone who thinks something should be handed to them just 'cause.

I didn't offer her up as some sort of gold standard. I simply used her as an example of someone can make it in this economy if they bust their asses hard enough, and are willing to compromise what they want in the short term. Why you think that's so unreasonable is beyond me. It's common sense.


I'm going to go out on a limb for a minute here and assume that your friend found her 70k job in a secondary market. Contrary to what some may imagine, secondary markets aren't boon for T14 grads who strike out in NYC/DC/Chi/Cali/wherever. Secondary market firms will demand ties and reasons why you're willing to work for them, particularly given your presTTTigious background. I attend CCN and I guarantee that none of my classmates was absolved from having to prove connections to TX when interviewing with TX firms.

That the applicant is attempting to 'settle' may be, and frequently is, incredibly obvious to the employers you're applying to (hence why many T14 grads swarming PI without a history of interest in PI don't manage to break into the field). No one particularly wants an employee that ran to them as last resort and hiding as much can be terribly difficult to manage.

TL;DR- elevating T4 grads who work in secondary markets as examples to T14ers who chase after and don't break into NYC firms is simplistic and blind to hiring realities in the legal profession.


Sorry Dres, but I don't think that's it. She works in DC. And, I never said it wasn't difficult. I just said it wasn't impossible. For the two friends who have found jobs, I have quite a few more who haven't yet. Another 2L friend quit LS this past spring and switched over to a grad program in criminology because of job prospects. I get it. I just wish someone would consider the other side for a second.

thegor1987
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby thegor1987 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:48 pm

If you look at law school profiles on TLS, Duke, a T14 law school reports 100% employment at time of graduation, with median salary being $160,000. You must not have went to Duke. If you did, you would be employed.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:03 pm

thegor1987 wrote:If you look at law school profiles on TLS, Duke, a T14 law school reports 100% employment at time of graduation, with median salary being $160,000. You must not have went to Duke. If you did, you would be employed.

Lol. (I think this will be something Action Jackson and I agree on.)

Frank
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Frank » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:17 pm

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Last edited by Frank on Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

d34d9823
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby d34d9823 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:33 pm

Frank wrote:Lol, this is so not a flame. You can check my posts, if you want (I've been posting on here before I applied to law school, and I am now a 2L at CLS). Having just finished OCI, and having been lucky enough to get offers in BIGLAW (and, when I say lucky, I mean very, very lucky because I am below median), I can say, definitively, that the OP is speaking the truth. I know MULTIPLE people at CLS (now 2Ls) who will not be working BIGLAW the summer of 2011. The economy is still not doing well, and I hear that it is much worse at lower-ranked schools than here. Last year, we placed ~65% of the class into BIGLAW (the current 3Ls). It used to be 95%. Quite a contrast. So, don't call flame on things you don't understand. OP is telling the truth.

Are you familiar with the term "nuance"?

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vanwinkle
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:34 pm

Frank wrote:Lol, this is so not a flame. You can check my posts, if you want (I've been posting on here before I applied to law school, and I am now a 2L at CLS). Having just finished OCI, and having been lucky enough to get offers in BIGLAW (and, when I say lucky, I mean very, very lucky because I am below median), I can say, definitively, that the OP is speaking the truth. I know MULTIPLE people at CLS (now 2Ls) who will not be working BIGLAW the summer of 2011. The economy is still not doing well, and I hear that it is much worse at lower-ranked schools than here. Last year, we placed ~65% of the class into BIGLAW (the current 3Ls). It used to be 95%. Quite a contrast. So, don't call flame on things you don't understand. OP is telling the truth.

How does this show OP to be telling the truth? BigLaw is not all that's out there. Not working BigLaw ≠ unemployable. You're not really saying anything that supports OP.

Frank
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Frank » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:35 pm

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Last edited by Frank on Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Frank
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Frank » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:40 pm

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Last edited by Frank on Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Action Jackson
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Action Jackson » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:37 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
thegor1987 wrote:If you look at law school profiles on TLS, Duke, a T14 law school reports 100% employment at time of graduation, with median salary being $160,000. You must not have went to Duke. If you did, you would be employed.

Lol. (I think this will be something Action Jackson and I agree on.)

Definitely.

JeanMarie
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JeanMarie » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:02 pm

I was temporarily banned for responding to a message where I was accused of being "socially retarded" for not having found a job.

Of course, the Moderator was looking for a pretext.

I have a feeling I will be permanently banned soon so I'll say very clearly that I'm telling the truth about what's happening.

If you're attacking me, then it's because the truth hurts. If you're applying to law school, please read up about it as much as you can. Read information from people who have just graduated. Talk to them. Go to message boards where actual lawyers discuss things (this one is for 0Ls and 1Ls mostly I think). Read blogs that lawyers and law graduates write.

Don't sit here typing away insulting me as if that's going to help anyone.

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General Tso
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby General Tso » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:11 pm

Jean you have something useful to bring to this board...why don't you stop being so belligerent?

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paratactical
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby paratactical » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:14 pm

*sigh*

General Tso wrote:Jean you have something useful to bring to this board...why don't you stop being so belligerent?


Because she fails to actualy engaged in a meaningful and open conversation and doesn't understand that her inability to discuss the points she's bringing up in a meaningful way is why people are mocking her.

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General Tso
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby General Tso » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:27 pm

paratactical wrote:*sigh*

General Tso wrote:Jean you have something useful to bring to this board...why don't you stop being so belligerent?


Because she fails to actualy engaged in a meaningful and open conversation and doesn't understand that her inability to discuss the points she's bringing up in a meaningful way is why people are mocking her.


Understood but I dont get why she has to lash out at those mocking her in a manner that is going to get her banned. FWIW I enjoyed her posts and found them informative without needing to hear her school/class rank.

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romothesavior
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby romothesavior » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:37 pm

Here's the thing: people who make blatantly ridiculous statements on TLS get scorn and ridicule. It is just how it goes. Saying that you're at a T14 and you don't know anyone in biglaw is absolutely ridiculous. I am a 1L at a T20 and I barely ever talk to anyone outside of my 1L peers, and I know of people who are going into biglaw.

I'm all for warning of the dangers of law school, especially for those who are iffy on being a lawyer. But let's keep it real, y'all.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:45 pm

romothesavior wrote:Here's the thing: people who make blatantly ridiculous statements on TLS get scorn and ridicule. It is just how it goes. Saying that you're at a T14 and you don't know anyone in biglaw is absolutely ridiculous. I am a 1L at a T20 and I barely ever talk to anyone outside of my 1L peers, and I know of people who are going into biglaw.

I'm all for warning of the dangers of law school, especially for those who are iffy on being a lawyer. But let's keep it real, y'all.


One.

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bk1
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby bk1 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:45 pm

General Tso wrote:Understood but I dont get why she has to lash out at those mocking her in a manner that is going to get her banned. FWIW I enjoyed her posts and found them informative without needing to hear her school/class rank.


Oh I don't know, maybe because people other than you don't like being the ass end of jokes and scorn?

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vanwinkle
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:47 pm

JeanMarie wrote:I have a feeling I will be permanently banned soon so I'll say very clearly that I'm telling the truth about what's happening.

You were given a 24-hour warning ban several days ago. You're not going to be permanently banned for having an opinion that a T14 is an unwise investment, and you're certainly not the only person to express that opinion on this forum. Long-term banning will come from things like trolling threads you don't belong in or repeatedly ignoring moderator warnings. However, we do not ban people simply for saying, in the appropriate places to do so, that an <X> education/investment is a bad idea.

I hope that clears up any confusion on the matter. If OP still feels that they will be permanently banned soon, I assume it would be because they intend to do something worthy of permanent banning. Otherwise, they're just crying persecution in the (hopefully mistaken) believe it will lend credibility to their hyperbolic statements.

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romothesavior
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby romothesavior » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:55 pm

vanwinkle wrote:Otherwise, they're just crying persecution in the (hopefully mistaken) believe it will lend credibility to their hyperbolic statements.


Eh, I cried persecution after my ban with the belief that it would make me more cyber-friends. After all, who doesn't hate the mods, right?

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bk1
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby bk1 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:58 pm

romothesavior wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:Otherwise, they're just crying persecution in the (hopefully mistaken) believe it will lend credibility to their hyperbolic statements.


Eh, I cried persecution after my ban with the belief that it would make me more cyber-friends. After all, who doesn't hate the mods, right?

Fight the power!

JeanMarie
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JeanMarie » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:00 pm

Law school a bad idea? All my friends are wondering how the schools manage to fill in the ranks when the law job market is in disarray. Do you guys get it? I don't believe all of you are going to Yale or Harvard, so the majority of you will end up like me. That's what I think.

I hustled my butt off, by the way. I networked with many lawyers I knew from years back, family friends, everything.

This law school business won't end well. Please, heed the advice of those who went through it. Don't listen to the know-it-alls on this board who haven't even graduated.

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paratactical
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby paratactical » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:02 pm

JeanMarie wrote:Law school a bad idea? All my friends are wondering how the schools manage to fill in the ranks when the law job market is in disarray. Do you guys get it? I don't believe all of you are going to Yale or Harvard, so the majority of you will end up like me. That's what I think.

I hustled my butt off, by the way. I networked with many lawyers I knew from years back, family friends, everything.

This law school business won't end well. Please, heed the advice of those who went through it. Don't listen to the know-it-alls on this board who haven't even graduated.


--ImageRemoved--

acrossthelake
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:08 pm

Meh. I'll take my odds. I agree that it's an important reality for most people to contemplate, but my odds look good enough to gamble with.

Hyperbole doesn't work. It's part of the failure of hyperbolic ads that sway teenagers not to drink or have sex---a very strong "if you have sex, you will die" message doesn't work when they have examples of ppl who do have sex, and don't die. Similarly here, "If you go to law school, you will be poor", doesn't work when we see people who go to law school and still end up rich.

If you really want to get your point across, you need to spell out the odds, referring to data, instead of anecdote, and stop speaking in hyperbolic absolutes.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:20 pm

acrossthelake wrote:Meh. I'll take my odds. I agree that it's an important reality for most people to contemplate, but my odds look good enough to gamble with.

Hyperbole doesn't work. It's part of the failure of hyperbolic ads that sway teenagers not to drink or have sex---a very strong "if you have sex, you will die" message doesn't work when they have examples of ppl who do have sex, and don't die. Similarly here, "If you go to law school, you will be poor", doesn't work when we see people who go to law school and still end up rich.

If you really want to get your point across, you need to spell out the odds, referring to data, instead of anecdote, and stop speaking in hyperbolic absolutes.


"The world will end right now if you don't have sex with me!"

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rayiner
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby rayiner » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:26 pm

acrossthelake wrote:Meh. I'll take my odds. I agree that it's an important reality for most people to contemplate, but my odds look good enough to gamble with.

Hyperbole doesn't work. It's part of the failure of hyperbolic ads that sway teenagers not to drink or have sex---a very strong "if you have sex, you will die" message doesn't work when they have examples of ppl who do have sex, and don't die. Similarly here, "If you go to law school, you will be poor", doesn't work when we see people who go to law school and still end up rich.

If you really want to get your point across, you need to spell out the odds, referring to data, instead of anecdote, and stop speaking in hyperbolic absolutes.


When we talk about SA classes of 120 people getting cut to 20 you might think we're exaggerating, but we're not. It really is that bad.

There is nothing in this thread that is an exaggeration. Half the people who do OCI will not get something out of it. If they want private practice, there are no $100k jobs they can fall back on. If you miss 2L OCI, big law is effectively a shut door. All of those things are true. If you want to take that gamble after all of those things, then fine, but don't accuse people of exaggerating.




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