Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

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androstan
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby androstan » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:47 pm

I haven't had the patience to read through every comment in this thread. However, I did contact Jean personally and she did provide details. I don't know why she is so adamant about keeping them private, but anyone else can go ahead and PM her.

I don't know why someone would come on a forum and just lie, and then persist throughout the thread and PMs. Seems like too much effort even for a troll. I think she's probably being honest.

I mean, the legal market is shrinking, and simultaneously we are dumping tens of thousands of JDs onto the market every year, many of them with six figure debt. This simply can't go on.

Since law school classes are graded on a curve, it doesn't matter how hard the class works or how smart they are. If some people work just a little harder and/or are just a little smarter, you get the B- and they get the B/B+. Some people will graduate with GPAs that will just block them from lucrative employment. It's their policy. The school is being paid an exorbitant sum and they are guaranteeing, insisting, and enforcing a policy that will place some of their benefactors in a highly compromised position. Even at a place like Duke, Michigan, etc. there has to be a bottom 10%.

So it is a gamble. The policy of the school itself tells you upfront that some fraction of you will struggle after graduating (unless you're at Yale I suppose). It's not enough to spend a hundred thousand dollars, attend a big name place, study and work hard, be inherently intelligent, earn a graduate professional degree, and pass your licensure exams. You have to beat the mandatory curve, too.

hijodehombre
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby hijodehombre » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:50 pm

I don't think she's being accused of lying. The problem is her hyperbolic rhetoric. Read through and notice what VanWinkle wrote.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby paratactical » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:52 pm

androstan wrote:I haven't had the patience to read through every comment in this thread. However, I did contact Jean personally and she did provide details. I don't know why she is so adamant about keeping them private, but anyone else can go ahead and PM her.

I don't know why someone would come on a forum and just lie, and then persist throughout the thread and PMs. Seems like too much effort even for a troll. I think she's probably being honest.


I don't think Jean is lying. I believe that she believes everything she says.

I do think that she's a ridiculous brat that views anything other than being handed a job as sucking cock for work.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby scribblehead » Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:24 pm

Gotta agree 100% with the OP. Almost everyone on this board will soon come to deeply regret the decision to attend law school. Even if you do get one of the "biglaw" jobs, the work is such mindless, numbing slop.

Take a look at this NYC gig:

--LinkRemoved--

Believe it or not, these doc review gigs are hard to get nowadays. Most agencies don't even call you in to sign up unless you already have 2-5 years of e-discovery experience. BTW, by means of reference, Fed Ex drivers get $28 an hour plus full health benefits.

Small firm gigs are notoriously awful too: the same hours and stress of Biglaw at 35 K a year and little chance for advancement. There was another thread on here some time ago about a clown who was gonna make millions in personal injury. He apparently never heard of the "threshold" in NY/NJ, which has basically killed off this entire area of law and put thousands of insurance defense and plaintiff lawyers on the breadline:

http://www.newyorkpersonalinjuryattorne ... chool.html

It will only get worse, as the insurance companies have the $$$ to keep pushing for tougher and more anti-plaintiff rules and measures.

Flame away, kids. You'll look back in 3 years and wish to God you hadn't wasted your youth, time, effort and money collecting a credential worth less and less each year.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby General Tso » Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:26 pm

Scotty B is back folks! welcome, friend

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bk1
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby bk1 » Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:27 pm

Somebody just gave this thread an adrenaline shot to the heart!

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mpasi
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby mpasi » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:12 pm

JeanMarie wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
JakeL wrote:There's a reason these people are on this board complaining instead of getting paid. I think it has less to do with the market, and more to do with the individual. Those who went to a t14, got good grades, yet remain unemployed are probably socially retarded. Most of them expect the job to find them, but they have no real life experience outside of academia.

This is a little too strong, let's not go that far with the language.

I will agree that interviewing skills seem to have a large impact on employment, more than people entering law school expect. The "good grades = big $$$ offers" model is gone, and even with good grades you've still got to be the type of person they're looking for. That's not to say you're unemployable if you can't interview well with BigLaw firms, just that you're likely to have to find employment elsewhere, which will result in lower starting income.


If I had a job, I wouldn't be on here. I'm not socially retarded. If it happens to you, will you tell yourself that you are socially retarded too? Or does only apply to the Class of 2010, the class that had no warning about the DISASTER of the legal market? the class that had no idea what a "scam-blog" was?

Yeah, right. That's what I thought.


I have friends who just graduated from lower-ranked schools that have jobs already. Not small firms, ether. Maybe your interviewing skills aren't that great? And I fail to see how coming on here to whine about your situation, trying to scare 0Ls, and insulting people for using common sense is going to help you. Every post you make here defending your asinine comments is time you've taken away from your job search. Network. Go to career fairs. Harass your career services people. Join private job lists (they're like $5/month). Troll other schools' career services websites (there are a number that don't restrict access to listings). In other words, get off your ass, dust yourself off, and go find a job. If someone from a T4 with no connections can find a law job, surely you can.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Action Jackson » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:23 pm

mpasi wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
JakeL wrote:There's a reason these people are on this board complaining instead of getting paid. I think it has less to do with the market, and more to do with the individual. Those who went to a t14, got good grades, yet remain unemployed are probably socially retarded. Most of them expect the job to find them, but they have no real life experience outside of academia.

This is a little too strong, let's not go that far with the language.

I will agree that interviewing skills seem to have a large impact on employment, more than people entering law school expect. The "good grades = big $$$ offers" model is gone, and even with good grades you've still got to be the type of person they're looking for. That's not to say you're unemployable if you can't interview well with BigLaw firms, just that you're likely to have to find employment elsewhere, which will result in lower starting income.


If I had a job, I wouldn't be on here. I'm not socially retarded. If it happens to you, will you tell yourself that you are socially retarded too? Or does only apply to the Class of 2010, the class that had no warning about the DISASTER of the legal market? the class that had no idea what a "scam-blog" was?

Yeah, right. That's what I thought.


I have friends who just graduated from lower-ranked schools that have jobs already. Not small firms, ether. Maybe your interviewing skills aren't that great? And I fail to see how coming on here to whine about your situation, trying to scare 0Ls, and insulting people for using common sense is going to help you. Every post you make here defending your asinine comments is time you've taken away from your job search. Network. Go to career fairs. Harass your career services people. Join private job lists (they're like $5/month). Troll other schools' career services websites (there are a number that don't restrict access to listings). In other words, get off your ass, dust yourself off, and go find a job. If someone from a T4 with no connections can find a law job, surely you can.

Yes, it is extremely, super, duper rare for a law student to not get a job. Anyone who doesn't get a job must surely be a fool, or lazy, or extremely unattractively, socially inept person.

It's not like we're ass deep in the worst economy in nearly half a century... :roll:

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:27 pm

Action Jackson wrote:Yes, it is extremely, super, duper rare for a law student to not get a job.

This isn't what she said; she said it's unusual for someone at a T14 with strong interviewing skills and enough time spent on networking to not find a job. That's less hyperbolic and more truthful. There are still some people striking out, but there are jobs out there, and being at a T14 puts you in a fairly strong starting position to work from if you're willing to go out there, find them, and convince them to hire you.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Action Jackson » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:40 pm

vanwinkle wrote:and being at a T14 puts you in a fairly strong starting position to work from if you're willing to go out there, find them, and convince them to hire you.

This is, of course, easier said than done, and I know people who are busting there ass to find work and have an extremely difficult time. I don't think she's not trying to convince people hire her, but when the economy is in the dumps and there isn't enough work to justify adding another salary what are you supposed to say? American dream aside, there are outside forces that affect what happens to people, and blaming someone for their frustration with an extremely shitty situation that was not of their doing is just out of line.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby mpasi » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:43 pm

Action Jackson wrote:

Yes, it is extremely, super, duper rare for a law student to not get a job. Anyone who doesn't get a job must surely be a fool, or lazy, or extremely unattractively, socially inept person.

It's not like we're ass deep in the worst economy in nearly half a century... :roll:


I didn't say that at all. I simply said OP isn't trying hard enough. I've seen no mention of ground pounding, cold calling firms, applying to PI positions, doc review, etc. She seems to be of the opinion that she's entitled to biglaw jobs, and since that hasn't panned out so well, her law degree is a waste of time. I could be mistaken, but I haven't seen her mention the state of the economy as a factor. That just seems like petty whining. And, a lot of people have taken jobs they're overqualified for to make ends meet. She's only focusing on law jobs, which doesn't make sense in this economy. Limiting yourself to one kind of job just keeps you unemployed. I don't see why she can't do something related and look for law jobs simultaneously.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:46 pm

Action Jackson wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:and being at a T14 puts you in a fairly strong starting position to work from if you're willing to go out there, find them, and convince them to hire you.

This is, of course, easier said than done, and I know people who are busting there ass to find work and have an extremely difficult time. I don't think she's not trying to convince people hire her, but when the economy is in the dumps and there isn't enough work to justify adding another salary what are you supposed to say? American dream aside, there are outside forces that affect what happens to people, and blaming someone for their frustration with an extremely shitty situation that was not of their doing is just out of line.

Dude, where's your sense of personal responsibility? If jobs are out there, and someone is failing to get one, then that person should be doing something differently, clearly. It's not out of line to ask what they've done and what they're doing at all. Yes, there are outside forces at play, and they make things very difficult, but ultimately it's about whether you let those outside forces stop you or not, which is an internal thing. Blaming "outside forces" is disingenious to me. If you got into a T14 and thought it'd be easy from there and there'd be no "outside forces" making it difficult, well, that's a problem with you that needs to be changed, not with the world.

People need to buckle down and work hard to find jobs, and it's pretty bad out there, but that doesn't mean it's horrifically difficult for people at T14s to find jobs. Hard? Yes. But doable, if you keep trying and focus on what you're doing "wrong", be it your interviewing skills, target market, or expectations for pay.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby mpasi » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:49 pm

Action Jackson wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:and being at a T14 puts you in a fairly strong starting position to work from if you're willing to go out there, find them, and convince them to hire you.

This is, of course, easier said than done, and I know people who are busting there ass to find work and have an extremely difficult time. I don't think she's not trying to convince people hire her, but when the economy is in the dumps and there isn't enough work to justify adding another salary what are you supposed to say? American dream aside, there are outside forces that affect what happens to people, and blaming someone for their frustration with an extremely shitty situation that was not of their doing is just out of line.




Playing a victim and blaming external factors aren't going to get you a job. Sorry, but I don't mince words when common sense is staring me in the face. And who should be "blamed" for OP's joblessness? The school? They didn't promise her a job...they just said they would prepare her for the legal profession and then "assist" her in her job search. There's something to be said for personal accountability here, and OP seems to be skirting around it. Thinking you're owed something just because you did certain things isn't going to help you. The economy is in the crapper, and yet, OP wants the biggest, baddest firm jobs there are out there, when precedent indicates that people with years of practice under their belt are more likely to get those jobs. It's about taking what you can get until something better comes along.

The economy is shitty, and yet, people are finding jobs, even jobs as lawyers. The blanket assertion that the economy is bad doesn't exactly explain why OP can't find a job, especially when she's openly admitted to wanting big firm jobs, the ones that are least available right now.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby FlanAl » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:54 pm

I have a friend in a situation similar to the OP's. I'll try to write it in a way that mirrors the OP's argument:

"I went to a top 10 public university and received a BSc in Computer Science. I financed my education and am now in debt. I cannot find a job. I would have been much better served had i started working in the food service industry right after high school. I would not be in debt and would probably have become an assistant manager. Therefore no one should go to college."

I wonder if the OP would recommend that people not go to college? Because if she sticks to her reasoning even going to a high ranked school and getting an in demand major is "DISASTROUS" as long as you don't get a high paying job right after you graduate.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby d34d9823 » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:55 pm

--ImageRemoved--

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Nulli Secundus
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Nulli Secundus » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:57 pm

ENOUGH WITH THIS BULLSHIT!

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:57 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:--ImageRemoved--

BRILLIANT.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Action Jackson » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:58 pm

vanwinkle wrote:Dude, where's your sense of personal responsibility? If jobs are out there, and someone is failing to get one, then that person should be doing something differently, clearly.


You make it sound like there's a job out there for every law graduate. There isn't. There isn't even a job out there for every T14 graduate. When one of my friends spends the night in my apartment crying about how they've been rejected from every firm they interviewed at including the small shit law firms they mailed, I'm not going to reflexively blame them for not trying hard enough. I know lawyers with years of experience under their belts that are getting laid off and not being able to find work. It is still a mess out there.

This is simple math. When the supply of workers vastly exceeds the demand for workers you end up with people busting their ass to find a job and ending up with nothing. It would be fantastic if every T14 grad could just will themselves into a job, but it would also be fantastic if unicorns farted rainbows.

Some people are simply not going to get employed ITE, because of ITE.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby mpasi » Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:04 pm

Action Jackson wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:Dude, where's your sense of personal responsibility? If jobs are out there, and someone is failing to get one, then that person should be doing something differently, clearly.


You make it sound like there's a job out there for every law graduate. There isn't. There isn't even a job out there for every T14 graduate. When one of my friends spends the night in my apartment crying about how they've been rejected from every firm they interviewed at including the small shit law firms they mailed, I'm not going to reflexively blame them for not trying hard enough. I know lawyers with years of experience under their belts that are getting laid off and not being able to find work. It is still a mess out there.

This is simple math. When the supply of workers vastly exceeds the demand for workers you end up with people busting their ass to find a job and ending up with nothing. It would be fantastic if every T14 grad could just will themselves into a job, but it would also be fantastic if unicorns farted rainbows.

Some people are simply not going to get employed ITE, because of ITE.


You missed his point entirely. OP isn't being blamed for her situation. OP isn't being blamed for anything. She's being called out for being unreasonable. That's the long and short of it, and you seem to think that's somehow offensive.

Truth be told, even the economy was booming, T-14 grads weren't guaranteed jobs, so how is this different, exactly? The economy is bad...you said it, Van said it, and I said it, and yet, people are finding jobs. What could be different, I wonder? Maybe they're not sitting on internet forums, talking about how shitty it is that they can't find the job THEY WANT (read: not what's available). That's what you seem to keep missing. She's basing all of this on the fact that she can't get the job she WANTS. That's just silliness.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby d34d9823 » Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:05 pm

Action Jackson wrote:This is simple math. When the supply of workers vastly exceeds the demand for workers you end up with people busting their ass to find a job and ending up with nothing.

This isn't necessarily true. There's a ton of people who won't do what it takes even when getting a job depends on it. See: OP.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Action Jackson » Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:06 pm

mpasi wrote:Playing a victim and blaming external factors aren't going to get you a job.

For some people neither is busting your ass to find a job. That's the problem.

And who should be "blamed" for OP's joblessness? The school?


Maybe George W. Bush for being a shitty President and completely f-ing up the economy for 8 years with stupid idea after stupid idea, but that's just me. Or Jesus for not killing all of us -- excuse me, SAVING all of us in a holy blaze. Or Santa Claus, for being so fat. Basically, whoever it is you blame when something terrible happens that you don't have any control. I try not to indiscriminately point fingers, though, and you might try doing the same.

The economy is shitty, and yet, people are finding jobs, even jobs as lawyers.


And there are people NOT finding jobs. Again, it's not like there's a job available for everybody and you just have to look for it. There are literally not enough jobs out there.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby mpasi » Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:11 pm

Action Jackson wrote:



And who should be "blamed" for OP's joblessness? The school?


Maybe George W. Bush for being a shitty President and completely f-ing up the economy for 8 years with stupid idea after stupid idea, but that's just me. Or Jesus for not killing all of us -- excuse me, SAVING all of us in a holy blaze. Or Santa Claus, for being so fat. Basically, whoever it is you blame when something terrible happens that you don't have any control. I try not to indiscriminately point fingers, though, and you might try doing the same.



How about the straw man you're getting your arguments from?

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:14 pm

Action Jackson wrote:You make it sound like there's a job out there for every law graduate. There isn't. There isn't even a job out there for every T14 graduate.

There are enough jobs out there that are being taken by non-T14 grads; why aren't the T14 grads going and getting those?

Action Jackson wrote:When one of my friends spends the night in my apartment crying about how they've been rejected from every firm they interviewed at including the small shit law firms they mailed, I'm not going to reflexively blame them for not trying hard enough. I know lawyers with years of experience under their belts that are getting laid off and not being able to find work. It is still a mess out there.

You need to do more than just try hard, you also need to try the right way. Was your friend limiting themselves to certain markets or fields? Did they look at public interest employment?

Yes, experienced lawyers are getting laid off, but there are still positions out there for fresh grads. It's cheaper to hire someone new than someone experienced, and especially in the legal community there's skepticism about hiring someone who's been laid off, so things are actually better for people graduating now than those who have already graduated.

Action Jackson wrote:This is simple math. When the supply of workers vastly exceeds the demand for workers you end up with people busting their ass to find a job and ending up with nothing. It would be fantastic if every T14 grad could just will themselves into a job, but it would also be fantastic if unicorns farted rainbows.

Some people are simply not going to get employed ITE, because of ITE.

I don't disagree that some people are simply not going to get employed ITE, but I don't see that rationale extending up to the T14 as some blanket "oh noes" thing like you're using it. There are enough people at T14s getting employed that ITE by itself is not a valid explanation.

This goes back to an earlier point I made in the thread, which was: Law school is not for everyone, and especially ITE it's not for people who think a law degree is an easy ticket to a job. There are people who seem to still think that going to a T14 means employers will line up for you at OCI and you'll be set for life, and that's not the way it works anymore. You have to be willing to work your ass off to find work and to have low expectations. Those who do so and still go to a T14 are still likely to find themselves feeling rewarded, even if it ends up being with a job far less "prestigious" or high-paying than they would've gotten pre-ITE.

On the other hand, those who go into T14s with high expectations and little focus on what it will take to get a job ... won't find one.

This economy is brutal, and people shouldn't go into schools, even T14s, expecting $160K. But if they want to be a lawyer and work somewhere in the legal profession, and they've figured out how to finance their legal education no matter where or on what they end up working, then they should still go to a T14 because there are enough opportunities out there to find still.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Action Jackson » Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:18 pm

mpasi wrote:You missed his point entirely. OP isn't being blamed for her situation. OP isn't being blamed for anything. She's being called out for being unreasonable. That's the long and short of it, and you seem to think that's somehow offensive.


You said, "I have friends who just graduated from lower-ranked schools that have jobs already. Not small firms, ether." And, "If someone from a T4 with no connections can find a law job, surely you can." What you are saying, that SURELY a T14 grad can get a job if they want one, is what I have a problem with. Obviously OP has engendered a great deal of disdain in this thread, and I don't care about that. I care about YOU saying that SURELY a T14 grad can get a job, even though there aren't enough jobs out there.

Truth be told, even the economy was booming, T-14 grads weren't guaranteed jobs, so how is this different, exactly?


Now I don't know what you're talking about anymore. So there weren't enough jobs out there for all T14 grads even in boom times, and now there are at least 1/2 as many jobs out there. Or are you saying that all those T14 grads were just lazy too?

The economy is bad...you said it, Van said it, and I said it, and yet, people are finding jobs.


SOME people are finding jobs. Not all. Maybe not even most. SOME. That is the difference between you and me. You see one person get a job and extrapolate that ALL people can get jobs, and I do not. Shit, I have a job lined up, so obviously it's doable, but like I said, I know people that don't. I don't think I got a job because I tried and they didn't. Hard working, smart T14 grads are getting shut out of employment. That is the reality of ITE. Maybe OP is just a lazy a-hole, I don't know, but I'm not tell OP that they can surely get a job if they just try, because I know that's a lie.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Action Jackson » Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:27 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Action Jackson wrote:You make it sound like there's a job out there for every law graduate. There isn't. There isn't even a job out there for every T14 graduate.

There are enough jobs out there that are being taken by non-T14 grads; why aren't the T14 grads going and getting those?


Because you and I both know that's not how it works.

Let's just get really simple: Do you or do you not believe that every T14 CAN get a job if they want one?

You seem to be saying yes and no, so let's get some clarification. I do NOT believe every T14 can get a job if they want one, because there just aren't enough legal jobs out there. I'm not sure even in boom times there were enough jobs to go around.

At the end of the day, if you honestly believe there's a job for every T14 then there's nothing to really discuss. I disagree, and I'm not about to blame the unemployed for their woes unless it's clear their problems are of their own making.

vanwinkle wrote:This goes back to an earlier point I made in the thread, which was: Law school is not for everyone, and especially ITE it's not for people who think a law degree is an easy ticket to a job. There are people who seem to still think that going to a T14 means employers will line up for you at OCI and you'll be set for life, and that's not the way it works anymore. You have to be willing to work your ass off to find work and to have low expectations. Those who do so and still go to a T14 are still likely to find themselves feeling rewarded, even if it ends up being with a job far less "prestigious" or high-paying than they would've gotten pre-ITE.

On the other hand, those who go into T14s with high expectations and little focus on what it will take to get a job ... won't find one.

This economy is brutal, and people shouldn't go into schools, even T14s, expecting $160K. But if they want to be a lawyer and work somewhere in the legal profession, and they've figured out how to finance their legal education no matter where or on what they end up working, then they should still go to a T14 because there are enough opportunities out there to find still.


This is completely reasonable and I don't disagree with this at all. But this really doesn't pertain to how many jobs are or aren't out there.




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