Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

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JeanMarie
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JeanMarie » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:20 am

sophia.olive wrote:l


Sophia, I responded to your pm.

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chadwick218
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby chadwick218 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:11 am

The OPs message is credited. Even as the economy is picking up, the TLS CB threads for Columbia, Chicago, Penn, and NU all suggest that it really has been feast or famine this year and that there are a significant # of people with two CBs or less.

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chadwick218
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby chadwick218 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:13 am

KMaine wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:I went to a T14, but no one I knew personally landed a BigLaw job at graduation, and only a handful of graduates found government positions.
How many people did you know personally? 3? I am not saying things are perfect, but if you want to present the situation as it is, at least be honest.


Agreed. Even at the worst placing T14s (i.e. GULC given its class size), approximately 33% landed Big Law jobs.

JeanMarie
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JeanMarie » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:19 am

chadwick218 wrote:
KMaine wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:I went to a T14, but no one I knew personally landed a BigLaw job at graduation, and only a handful of graduates found government positions.
How many people did you know personally? 3? I am not saying things are perfect, but if you want to present the situation as it is, at least be honest.


Agreed. Even at the worst placing T14s (i.e. GULC given its class size), approximately 33% landed Big Law jobs.


Thank you for backing me up. However, I believe your 33% figure is way, way optimistic. I know a lot of people from Georgetown because I would travel across the mid-Atlantic and have friends all over the eastern law school circuit. Where are you getting that estimate? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm highly skeptical.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:24 am

chadwick218 wrote:
KMaine wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:I went to a T14, but no one I knew personally landed a BigLaw job at graduation, and only a handful of graduates found government positions.
How many people did you know personally? 3? I am not saying things are perfect, but if you want to present the situation as it is, at least be honest.


Agreed. Even at the worst placing T14s (i.e. GULC given its class size), approximately 33% landed Big Law jobs.


What the hell? 33%? Really? You've just convinced me to go!

That's abnormally better than most other schools/majors are reporting across the board.

pasteurizedmilk
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:51 am

ResolutePear wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:
KMaine wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:I went to a T14, but no one I knew personally landed a BigLaw job at graduation, and only a handful of graduates found government positions.
How many people did you know personally? 3? I am not saying things are perfect, but if you want to present the situation as it is, at least be honest.


Agreed. Even at the worst placing T14s (i.e. GULC given its class size), approximately 33% landed Big Law jobs.


What the hell? 33%? Really? You've just convinced me to go!

That's abnormally better than most other schools/majors are reporting across the board.


If you have a decent scholarship - smart decision. Evens out the risk a bit.

If you're paying sticker and desire a relatively high QOL I would propose that 33% chance of not being completely fucked is not that great at all.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:57 am

pasteurizedmilk wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:
KMaine wrote: How many people did you know personally? 3? I am not saying things are perfect, but if you want to present the situation as it is, at least be honest.


Agreed. Even at the worst placing T14s (i.e. GULC given its class size), approximately 33% landed Big Law jobs.


What the hell? 33%? Really? You've just convinced me to go!

That's abnormally better than most other schools/majors are reporting across the board.


If you have a decent scholarship - smart decision. Evens out the risk a bit.

If you're paying sticker and desire a relatively high QOL I would propose that 33% chance of not being completely fucked is not that great at all.


Well, that's the thing. You figure that those 33% are above median, and therefore it's a 17% difference. If you can't make median, then why would you expect biglaw? Besides, my ultimate goal for law school is a clerkship followed by academia. It's very competitive, but it's all about the work and dedication you put into reaching that goal - though I won't lie, some natural skill is needed.

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RayFinkle
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby RayFinkle » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:58 am

It saddens me that this thread has reached two pages.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:00 am

RayFinkle wrote:It saddens me that this thread has reached two pages.


Here's something to brighten your day:
Image

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RayFinkle
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby RayFinkle » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:03 am

That worked. :P

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uwb09
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby uwb09 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:13 am

I'm a fresh 4 week in 1L at a T2 and I don't regret it at all

I'm absolutely fascinated with the material, I love the intellectual challenge, Profs are awesome, met some great people who I can tell are gonna be friends for a long time

I'm already getting ready to get knee deep in several clubs, volunteering at symposiums and mixers, I've already got a personal repertoire going with a judge alumni in a nearby city and several attorneys in the area

Frankly, if your job prospects are such sh*t on graduation, I don't think there is anyone to blame but yourself. Obviously I'm looking at this from the beginning of the process, but from what I can see now, there are insane opportunities through your school, law club chapters, and ABA to meet and network with hundreds, probably thousands of attorneys/judges, throughout your law school career

JeanMarie
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JeanMarie » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:27 am

uwb09 wrote:I'm a fresh 4 week in 1L at a T2 and I don't regret it at all

I'm absolutely fascinated with the material, I love the intellectual challenge, Profs are awesome, met some great people who I can tell are gonna be friends for a long time

I'm already getting ready to get knee deep in several clubs, volunteering at symposiums and mixers, I've already got a personal repertoire going with a judge alumni in a nearby city and several attorneys in the area

Frankly, if your job prospects are such sh*t on graduation, I don't think there is anyone to blame but yourself. Obviously I'm looking at this from the beginning of the process, but from what I can see now, there are insane opportunities through your school, law club chapters, and ABA to meet and network with hundreds, probably thousands of attorneys/judges, throughout your law school career



I want you to open up a Word document. Okay? Open it, and copy & paste this post you just made. Save it to your computer and to a flash drive. Tuck it away. Open it and reread what you just wrote on graduation day, a few months short of three years from now.

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Rand M.
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Rand M. » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:29 am

I must say that the prospect of not having a successful OCI frightens me. I can't imagine what it's like to not get anything at all.

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chadwick218
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby chadwick218 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:36 am

chadwick218 wrote:
KMaine wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:I went to a T14, but no one I knew personally landed a BigLaw job at graduation, and only a handful of graduates found government positions.
How many people did you know personally? 3? I am not saying things are perfect, but if you want to present the situation as it is, at least be honest.


Agreed. Even at the worst placing T14s (i.e. GULC given its class size), approximately 33% landed Big Law jobs.


Following are the top 10 law schools, as ranked by NLJ, and the corresponding percentages of their 2009 graduates hired by NLJ 250 law firms:

1.Northwestern University School of Law 55.9%
2. Columbia Law School 54.4%
3. Stanford Law School 54.1%
4. University of Chicago Law School 53.1%
5. University of Virginia School of Law 52.8%
6. University of Michigan Law School 51%
7. University of Pennsylvania Law School 50.8%
8. New York University School of Law 50.1%
9. University of California, Berkeley School of Law 50%
10. Duke Law School 49.8%

Looks like I don't have GULC on my list. And yes, I understand that this is 2009.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:40 am

chadwick218 wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:
KMaine wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:I went to a T14, but no one I knew personally landed a BigLaw job at graduation, and only a handful of graduates found government positions.
How many people did you know personally? 3? I am not saying things are perfect, but if you want to present the situation as it is, at least be honest.


Agreed. Even at the worst placing T14s (i.e. GULC given its class size), approximately 33% landed Big Law jobs.


Following are the top 10 law schools, as ranked by NLJ, and the corresponding percentages of their 2009 graduates hired by NLJ 250 law firms:

1.Northwestern University School of Law 55.9%
2. Columbia Law School 54.4%
3. Stanford Law School 54.1%
4. University of Chicago Law School 53.1%
5. University of Virginia School of Law 52.8%
6. University of Michigan Law School 51%
7. University of Pennsylvania Law School 50.8%
8. New York University School of Law 50.1%
9. University of California, Berkeley School of Law 50%
10. Duke Law School 49.8%

Looks like I don't have GULC on my list. And yes, I understand that this is 2009.


Would I read those numbers as: I'm likely to get a job if I end up above median? Barring walking into the interview naked, high/drunk, or not offering the interviewer a hooker? ;)

JeanMarie
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JeanMarie » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:45 am

chadwick218 wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:
KMaine wrote:
JeanMarie wrote:I went to a T14, but no one I knew personally landed a BigLaw job at graduation, and only a handful of graduates found government positions.
How many people did you know personally? 3? I am not saying things are perfect, but if you want to present the situation as it is, at least be honest.


Agreed. Even at the worst placing T14s (i.e. GULC given its class size), approximately 33% landed Big Law jobs.


Following are the top 10 law schools, as ranked by NLJ, and the corresponding percentages of their 2009 graduates hired by NLJ 250 law firms:

1.Northwestern University School of Law 55.9%
2. Columbia Law School 54.4%
3. Stanford Law School 54.1%
4. University of Chicago Law School 53.1%
5. University of Virginia School of Law 52.8%
6. University of Michigan Law School 51%
7. University of Pennsylvania Law School 50.8%
8. New York University School of Law 50.1%
9. University of California, Berkeley School of Law 50%
10. Duke Law School 49.8%

Looks like I don't have GULC on my list. And yes, I understand that this is 2009.


Those numbers have been proven to be overly optimistic and include contract attorneys and deferred associates whose offers never materialized.

I wish it were not so.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:45 am

JeanMarie wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:
KMaine wrote: How many people did you know personally? 3? I am not saying things are perfect, but if you want to present the situation as it is, at least be honest.


Agreed. Even at the worst placing T14s (i.e. GULC given its class size), approximately 33% landed Big Law jobs.


Following are the top 10 law schools, as ranked by NLJ, and the corresponding percentages of their 2009 graduates hired by NLJ 250 law firms:

1.Northwestern University School of Law 55.9%
2. Columbia Law School 54.4%
3. Stanford Law School 54.1%
4. University of Chicago Law School 53.1%
5. University of Virginia School of Law 52.8%
6. University of Michigan Law School 51%
7. University of Pennsylvania Law School 50.8%
8. New York University School of Law 50.1%
9. University of California, Berkeley School of Law 50%
10. Duke Law School 49.8%

Looks like I don't have GULC on my list. And yes, I understand that this is 2009.


Those numbers have been proven to be overly optimistic and include contract attorneys and deferred associates whose offers never materialized.

I wish it were not so.

Sadness.

JeanMarie
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JeanMarie » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:46 am

ResolutePear wrote:
Would I read those numbers as: I'm likely to get a job if I end up above median? Barring walking into the interview naked, high/drunk, or not offering the interviewer a hooker? ;)


No. You shouldn't. LOL!

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FlanAl
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby FlanAl » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:48 am

Anyone else think that having a 50% chance at a 160,000 salary is better than the zero percent chance most arts/humanities majors have before law school?

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Rand M.
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Rand M. » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:53 am

FlanAl wrote:Anyone else think that having a 50% chance at a 160,000 salary is better than the zero percent chance most arts/humanities majors have before law school?


Maybe not when it comes at a cost of a couple hundred thousand dollars and three years of foregone income and advancement.

miamiman
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby miamiman » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:59 am

Rand M. wrote:
FlanAl wrote:Anyone else think that having a 50% chance at a 160,000 salary is better than the zero percent chance most arts/humanities majors have before law school?


Maybe not when it comes at a cost of a couple hundred thousand dollars and three years of foregone income and advancement.


The opportunity cost argument is weak at best and more likely to be ridiculous for the majority of law students. Humanities majors from most colleges face careers as baristas or Borders employees. The advancement/pay there is negligible.

The real issue is debt + likelihood of paying off that debt.

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JazzOne
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JazzOne » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:01 pm

chadwick218 wrote:The OPs message is credited. Even as the economy is picking up, the TLS CB threads for Columbia, Chicago, Penn, and NU all suggest that it really has been feast or famine this year and that there are a significant # of people with two CBs or less.

+1

JeanMarie
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JeanMarie » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:01 pm

miamiman wrote:
Rand M. wrote:
FlanAl wrote:Anyone else think that having a 50% chance at a 160,000 salary is better than the zero percent chance most arts/humanities majors have before law school?


Maybe not when it comes at a cost of a couple hundred thousand dollars and three years of foregone income and advancement.


The opportunity cost argument is weak at best and more likely to be ridiculous for the majority of law students. Humanities majors from most colleges face careers as baristas or Borders employees. The advancement/pay there is negligible.

The real issue is debt + likelihood of paying off that debt.


Many law students from most law schools face would be lucky to have careers as baristas or Borders employees. The advancement/pay there is negligible (as it is in most areas of legal employment).

Rand, good point.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:05 pm

Rand M. wrote:
FlanAl wrote:Anyone else think that having a 50% chance at a 160,000 salary is better than the zero percent chance most arts/humanities majors have before law school?


Maybe not when it comes at a cost of a couple hundred thousand dollars and three years of foregone income and advancement.


Well, there's always paying ~36k-50k minus whichever scholarships you get for an overly optimistic chance at landing in a big law from a T1 state university. You can pay that off easy in 5 years - it'd be like a car payment. Mind you, if you qualify for sticker T14, chances are good for a full ride to a lower-ranked state university.

Worse case scenario: at 36k-50k sticker, hell - having a JD can't hurt for job prospects out of law if all else fails - it's about the price of a liberal arts master's. Amirite or Amirite?

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Blindmelon
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Blindmelon » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:07 pm

JazzOne wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:The OPs message is credited. Even as the economy is picking up, the TLS CB threads for Columbia, Chicago, Penn, and NU all suggest that it really has been feast or famine this year and that there are a significant # of people with two CBs or less.

+1


Famine mostly for strong regionals. Anectdotally, BU students have been runnning around like crazy on CBs. I know most LR, etc. people and I haven't heard of a single offer extended yet. Given its early, but YHSCCN threads are chock full of people with multiple offers from firms BU students are doing CBs at. Seems like its worse than last year actually.
T6 or hang it up is pretty much right.




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