Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14 Forum

[Sentry]

If it doesn't I'm sure we could find a reason to "liberate" some countries that we owe.

Yeah, that'd be cost effective.

Since yours seems to be broken you can use mine.

[whymeohgodno]

What we need to do is put Bill Clinton on the ballot and get him back in office.

Which would also require a constitutional amendment

[sundance95]

Since yours seems to be broken you can use mine.

Oh I was sarchasming with you, not at you. Check the batteries on that thing.

[ResolutePear]

What we need to do is put Bill Clinton on the ballot and get him back in office.

Which would also require a constitutional amendment

The will of the people prevails, buddy.

[Sentry]

I guess I need to make a few more calibrations.

[ResolutePear]

I guess I need to make a few more calibrations.

Fucking sarcastics, how do they work?

[mpasi]

d. Your grain of salt is fair; I just think we could stand a little more of this pole of the perspective, to counterbalance the overwhelming lack of discussion among 0Ls about legal hiring.

That much is true, and I actually appreciate that kind of insight. I just wish they wouldn't be as jarring/alarmist about it. You don't have to scream to get your point across.

[thequest]

What we need to do is put Bill Clinton on the ballot and get him back in office.

It’s a far different world than it was in the 90’s. Clinton worked well with a republican congress that was just equally dedicated to a balanced budget. Instead of a Department of Homeland Security consuming money there was a “peace dividend” as a result of the end of the Cold War. And I think most importantly for 7 of the 8 years of the Clinton Presidency crude oil was under $20.00 per barrel. In February of 1999 crude averaged $9.30 a barrel.

I think that Bush and Obama are both horrible presidents but when crude oil imports account for over half of the trade deficit this economy is going to continue to hurt for a long time and I don’t believe Clinton would fare any better with $70.00 oil.

[ResolutePear]

What we need to do is put Bill Clinton on the ballot and get him back in office.

It’s a far different world than it was in the 90’s. Clinton worked well with a republican congress that was just equally dedicated to a balanced budget. Instead of a Department of Homeland Security consuming money there was a “peace dividend” as a result of the end of the Cold War. And I think most importantly for 7 of the 8 years of the Clinton Presidency crude oil was under $20.00 per barrel. In February of 1999 crude averaged $9.30 a barrel.

I think that Bush and Obama are both horrible presidents but when crude oil imports account for over half of the trade deficit this economy is going to continue to hurt for a long time and I don’t believe Clinton would fare any better with $70.00 oil.

You do pose good points.

I guess what I'm really looking for is legislation against outsourcing jobs - or pose steep penalties which makes hiring American works just as or more competitive than international workers - even in China.

Stick a nice VAT on it for companies who import wares into the country to even it out even more.. and I believe we'll be on our way to a better economy.

[thequest]

I agree that outsourcing is painful at the moment and I don’t hear either side addressing this issue in any sort of meaningful intelligent manner. I’d also like to weigh in on stimulus spending. Bush’s idea of stimulus was just as ineffective as Obama’s. Bush borrowed billions from China to give everyone a $600.00 check and people went out and bought more junk they didn’t need that was made in China. The Chinese could then take those profits and lend them to Obama to use on his worthless spending. The worst part of the Obama stimulus up to this point is that there is so little to show for it, not only in terms of economic growth but also in tangible products. He’s finally proposing infrastructure upgrades but it’s probably too little and it’s certainly too late.

[ResolutePear]

I agree that outsourcing is painful at the moment and I don’t hear either side addressing this issue in any sort of meaningful intelligent manner. I’d also like to weigh in on stimulus spending. Bush’s idea of stimulus was just as ineffective as Obama’s. Bush borrowed billions from China to give everyone a $600.00 check and people went out and bought more junk they didn’t need that was made in China. The Chinese could then take those profits and lend them to Obama to use on his worthless spending. The worst part of the Obama stimulus up to this point is that there is so little to show for it, not only in terms of economic growth but also in tangible products. He’s finally proposing infrastructure upgrades but it’s probably too little and it’s certainly too late.

Last I checked, the stimulus was tapped upto 15%... we'll have several years till we see more tangibility.

But yeah, 100% - they should be addressing outsourcing. Apple, Dell, and HP are all big players and exceedingly American companies IIRC... yet send all their labor minus some tech repair out of the country.

Just those companies - I'd bet you'd make a decent dent to unemployment... though at the cost of their ever increasing profits.

Electronics, Agriculture, and Cars are industries we should be keeping in the US through heavy economic regulation. This is right up Obama's alley too. I'm going to email him and bitch.

[thequest]

I'm going to email him and bitch.

LOL, good luck with that.

[ResolutePear]

I'm going to email him and bitch.

LOL, good luck with that.

Sent.

Mr. President,

Are there, or will there, be any efforts to regulate the outsourcing of jobs from American companies or impose a VAT to make American workers economically "viable" for technology companies to hire within the country versus overseas?

Just seems that all of these companies are cutting the cake and eating it, too... and I'm sick of getting tech support from some guy half a world away from me.

Rooting for the Democrats in November,
ResolutePear

Used my real name, vs. RP... but in hindsight, RP would of gotten more attention.

[Chicklets]

I find this post exaggerated a little. Im sure some of the points are true and valid, but i don't think it should in any way discourage anyone from law school if they are in it for the right reasons.
If you love law and are passionate about it then law school is a great place for you.
Yes the job market is bad right now but it's bad all across the board people from
all disciplines are out of work. The successful people do what they have to in order to
survive and find a way to be where they want to be.
Complaining about your situation or warning others will not change it.
I know many successful lawyers that have not always worked at big firms,
and some that didn't go to a T-14 but they found a way to get to wherever they
wanted to be.

My point is go to law school because its what you want to do and where you want to be.
If you want a certain job or to work for a certain type of firm after graduation find a way to make it happen.
Maybe someone doesn't start off where they want because the market is so bad, but it's where you finish that counts.

This is just my opinion and how I view things.

TITCR

[Elizabeth999]

OK..so perhaps you are right and the jobs are not there...ok...so there are many other reasons to get a law degree...least of all learning what laws govern your very existence and how the Federal Reserve is printing so much $$ I wouldn't worry too much about 100K of debt since our money is worthless anyway....I wish I was joking..

Nevertheless..it really isn't cool to scare people who are already scared enough trying to work their way through a very difficult venture. The skills and learning you gain from school will pay off....People who work in those firms making big $$ probably make minimum wage if you count the hundreds and thousands of hours they work....

That being said, it is always good to look at the negative as well as the positives in any situation. Really, why don't you use that great law degree to hold some of our elected representative accountable for defrauding the American people. We Americans tend to be quite self serving but if we all don't get our heads out of the sand soon...well, the situation will be bleaker than not getting a top job in some soulless top law firm.

If every single lawyer would read and learn the Constitution and fight for this country, perhaps we wouldn't be in this financial mess to begin with; or at least there would be people IN JAIL for the almost collapse of the US economy.

[Chicklets]

I find this post exaggerated a little. Im sure some of the points are true and valid, but i don't think it should in any way discourage anyone from law school if they are in it for the right reasons.
If you love law and are passionate about it then law school is a great place for you.
Yes the job market is bad right now but it's bad all across the board people from
all disciplines are out of work. The successful people do what they have to in order to
survive and find a way to be where they want to be.
Complaining about your situation or warning others will not change it.
I know many successful lawyers that have not always worked at big firms,
and some that didn't go to a T-14 but they found a way to get to wherever they
wanted to be.

My point is go to law school because its what you want to do and where you want to be.
If you want a certain job or to work for a certain type of firm after graduation find a way to make it happen.
Maybe someone doesn't start off where they want because the market is so bad, but it's where you finish that counts.

This is just my opinion and how I view things.

[ajmanyjah]

Where do I find this mythical Mid-Law? I thought it was nothing more than 0L wishful thinking.

...Seriously? I feel like sometimes, people in law school are bad at making contacts. I know dozens of midsized (50-200 lawyer) law firms, and have contacts in at least three...and I hadn't done anything related to the law until about 3 months ago

Sad

[ajmanyjah]

Too late.

BTW--weaken the dollar, companies that are in China (when I lived there) are scared because the skills aren't going up as fast as costs, and few other countries have productivity close to costs. Inflation is back up in China, and so they will strengthen their currency as the Euro strengthens.

The US will be fine. China isn;t some rising power, they can barely keep their shit together and their pants on in the karaoake

[Kretzy]

I'm a 1L at Stanford.

I know some of my classmates (including possibly myself) will strike out at OCI.

A few years ago it wouldn't have happened. Now, it's a given.

Law school, even near the top, isn't a golden ticket. Some folks at YHS will not get a job. A few more at CCN won't. You can keep extrapolating that downward.

What this means is not that people making the decision to go to law school have fucked up their lives. Those who came in refusing to understand the downside might be in for a rude awakening. Many of us will come out with great jobs, whether in firms or the umbrella of organizations called "public interest."

Things are not as good as the optimists want you to believe, nor are they as bad as the true pessimists want you to believe. Lots of folks need to temper their general hopes of what law school can provide them, and look toward LS with a more discerning eye.

[whymeohgodno]

Many - at least 2?

lololol I hate the LSAT so much.

[Sentry]

Many - at least 2?

lololol I hate the LSAT so much.

lol had it been most this would be a whole different discussion.

[digitalcntrl]

Nevertheless..it really isn't cool to scare people who are already scared enough trying to work their way through a very difficult venture. The skills and learning you gain from school will pay off....People who work in those firms making big $$ probably make minimum wage if you count the hundreds and thousands of hours they work....

It is not about scaring people. It is about giving people a realistic look at their future career prospects. The glitz and glamour of a law degree combined with the false advertising put out by law schools vis a vis employment prospects are to an extent defrauding naive students and oversaturating the profession (however it is also to an extent the students' fault for their willingness to be so naive, the information is out there (e.g. TLS) if a student is willing to spend some time researching his future career plans). As for BigLaw most associates will work 60-70 hour weeks for an initial salary of $160,000, with Lockstep, that would like $50/hr starting out and going up $5/hr per year. Of course the real target would be the all important partnership, which can be worth millions.

That being said, it is always good to look at the negative as well as the positives in any situation. Really, why don't you use that great law degree to hold some of our elected representative accountable for defrauding the American people. We Americans tend to be quite self serving but if we all don't get our heads out of the sand soon...well, the situation will be bleaker than not getting a top job in some soulless top law firm.

And who is gonna pay us to do that (I am not even talking a lot of money here)? Seriously even the public service positions, like Public Citizen, have cutthroat competition as well as funding shortfalls. There are many worthwhile causes, but you gotta eat, who is gonna feed you?

If every single lawyer would read and learn the Constitution and fight for this country, perhaps we wouldn't be in this financial mess to begin with; or at least there would be people IN JAIL for the almost collapse of the US economy.

I don't believe the Constitution requires a balanced budget or for us to protectionist, I don't see how you can put anyone in jail.

[worldtraveler]

OK..so perhaps you are right and the jobs are not there...ok...so there are many other reasons to get a law degree...least of all learning what laws govern your very existence and how the Federal Reserve is printing so much $$ I wouldn't worry too much about 100K of debt since our money is worthless anyway....I wish I was joking..

Nevertheless..it really isn't cool to scare people who are already scared enough trying to work their way through a very difficult venture. The skills and learning you gain from school will pay off....People who work in those firms making big $$ probably make minimum wage if you count the hundreds and thousands of hours they work....

That being said, it is always good to look at the negative as well as the positives in any situation. Really, why don't you use that great law degree to hold some of our elected representative accountable for defrauding the American people. We Americans tend to be quite self serving but if we all don't get our heads out of the sand soon...well, the situation will be bleaker than not getting a top job in some soulless top law firm.

If every single lawyer would read and learn the Constitution and fight for this country, perhaps we wouldn't be in this financial mess to begin with; or at least there would be people IN JAIL for the almost collapse of the US economy.

What the...huh?

[Deuce]

Cooley?

[johnnyutah]

To be fair, you don't have to have awful grades to not find a job. I'm a t-14 3L who struck out at both last year's and this year's OCI despite grades that place me somewhere between median and top third. OP's unwillingness to disclose does seem to indicate that OP has done bad, but that doesn't necessarily mean that OP's views on job prospects are totally unfounded.

Note: I'm still happy I went to law school.

Did'nt try mass mailing, networking, etc.? Lots of peeps with good grades/schools don't seem to get jobs because of a lack of thorough job search (not saying this is you).

Tried mass mailing last year, doing it again this year (started about a month ago). Still haven't figured out exactly what networking entails, but I've asked all my lawyer friends if they know about anything, for what that's worth.

I'm just saying that I haven't found a job yet, not that I definitely wont. In fact, I really suspect I will find some kind of legal job, even if it's only contract-basis doc review (which I don't mind doing for a year or two until the economy improves). I think a lot of the really small firms in my area don't do hiring on any sort of consistent schedule, anyway.