Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
ResolutePear
Posts: 8614
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:07 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:17 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
digitalcntrl wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
digitalcntrl wrote:
I think bigger issue is that everything else out there is even shittier. As Mystal said, LS appears to be a 3 year fallout shelter.


There are many jobs out there that don't require 3 years + 160k in debt that pays as well as if not better than what many law school grads are making.

Having 160k in debt with a J.D and no job is far worse than being out of college and unemployed without a J.D and no debt.


1) That presumes that incoming LS students could get those jobs. (I presume most students these days go to LS to avoid a horrible job market as opposed to trying for bigger and better careers).

2) LS is a shot at good/better pay (with a certain opportunity cost), compared with unemployment and depression, people naturally choose the former (to at least do something with their lives).


This all depends on your LSAT/GPA.


That's the thing though, the LSAT is a chance to balance out the errs committed in former years. If you have a 2.5 GPA, well you're screwed for grad school by most accounts...

But, if you can manage a 2.5GPA with a 175 LSAT, then heck, better job prospects anyways.

User avatar
mpasi
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby mpasi » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:58 pm

Nightrunner wrote:Out of curiosity: how many people made it through the first post before deciding that they didn't believe it?

I'm curious because I think that TLS is often accused of being too optimistic, and I think there is something to that. People throw around 2009 NLJ hiring as if that is in any way indicative of what 0L/1Ls will be facing -- THOSE PEOPLE DID OCI IN 2007.

Anyway, I'm only asking you all - especially 0Ls - to take these thoughts into serious consideration. You might conclude that this is still what you want, and if so, good on you. Just don't disregard this as "just another troll," because there is a lot of truth in that post.



You may think me cynical, but I really find it difficult to accept what some disgruntled grads have to say about the field during one of the worst recessions this country has ever seen as the gospel truth. It's hard to get a job in general, so why would law jobs be any different? A lot of people aren't working in their preferred fields right now, not just lawyers. Secondly, we're not all going to law school to do the same thing as the OP, which she conveniently managed not to mention. Some people aren't even going into law practice, replacing an MPP with a JD because of its versatility. Third, why should someone give up on what they've wanted to do their entire lives, have spent the last four or five years grooming for just because things are bad right now? They're not always going to be bad, and isn't it better to do something you're passionate about than to do something you don't like because the pay is better?

To be fair, I get what the OP is saying. I just don't think it's necessary to paint us a gloomy picture based on one person's bad experiences. The legal profession has been oversaturated since the 1980s, and yet, people have managed to find jobs in the field. I just have to take this "OMG, don't do it, dumbass!" with a huge grain of salt.

User avatar
JazzOne
Posts: 2938
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:04 am

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JazzOne » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:16 pm

What I find so disturbing is that many people assume the economy will recover. I don't think our economy will ever recover unless our government gets spending under control and reduces the national debt. However, doing so will cause a great deal of short-term pain. So no matter what happens, I think we're screwed for at least the next decade.
Last edited by JazzOne on Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:19 pm

JazzOne wrote:What I find so disturbing is that many people assume the economy will recover. I don't think our economy will ever recover unless our government gets spending under control and reduces the national debt. However, doing so will cause a great deal of short-term pain. So no matte what happens, I think we're screwed for at least the next decade.

Why do people have this crazy idea that cutting spending will help the economy? The government needs to spend more money to make up for the lack of private spending. We should be doing massive works projects, not cutting spending at a time like this. That's why we're getting screwed right now. We're not even spending the stimulus money we've allocated, for the most part. It's no wonder things aren't improving.

User avatar
JazzOne
Posts: 2938
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:04 am

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JazzOne » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:22 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
JazzOne wrote:What I find so disturbing is that many people assume the economy will recover. I don't think our economy will ever recover unless our government gets spending under control and reduces the national debt. However, doing so will cause a great deal of short-term pain. So no matte what happens, I think we're screwed for at least the next decade.

Why do people have this crazy idea that cutting spending will help the economy? The government needs to spend more money to make up for the lack of private spending. We should be doing massive works projects, not cutting spending at a time like this. That's why we're getting screwed right now. We're not even spending the stimulus money we've allocated, for the most part. It's no wonder things aren't improving.

Perhaps I should have been more clear. I think the problem is deficit spending. Sure, that helps the economy for now, but the credit will eventually run out, and then we're all in a world of hurt. Plus, how much are we spending to service this debt? How much of our government's spending is going to other countries?
Last edited by JazzOne on Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tsispilos
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:37 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Tsispilos » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:23 pm

IB this spirals into a lame democrat-vs-republican congressman-wannabe pissing match

User avatar
Hannibal
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:00 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Hannibal » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:24 pm

JazzOne wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
JazzOne wrote:What I find so disturbing is that many people assume the economy will recover. I don't think our economy will ever recover unless our government gets spending under control and reduces the national debt. However, doing so will cause a great deal of short-term pain. So no matte what happens, I think we're screwed for at least the next decade.

Why do people have this crazy idea that cutting spending will help the economy? The government needs to spend more money to make up for the lack of private spending. We should be doing massive works projects, not cutting spending at a time like this. That's why we're getting screwed right now. We're not even spending the stimulus money we've allocated, for the most part. It's no wonder things aren't improving.

Perhaps I should have been more clear. I think the problem is deficit spending. Sure, that helps the economy for now, but the credit will eventually run out, and then we're all in a world of hurt. Plus, how much are we spending to service this debt? How much of our government's spending is going to other countries.


The credit isn't going to run out. We are the fucking United States of America. If we falter, the whole world falters. We essentially have the entire world economy under stockholm syndrome, and I would bet every country would rather forgive 100% of US debt to them than have everyone stop lending.

User avatar
JazzOne
Posts: 2938
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:04 am

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JazzOne » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:27 pm

Hannibal wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
JazzOne wrote:What I find so disturbing is that many people assume the economy will recover. I don't think our economy will ever recover unless our government gets spending under control and reduces the national debt. However, doing so will cause a great deal of short-term pain. So no matte what happens, I think we're screwed for at least the next decade.

Why do people have this crazy idea that cutting spending will help the economy? The government needs to spend more money to make up for the lack of private spending. We should be doing massive works projects, not cutting spending at a time like this. That's why we're getting screwed right now. We're not even spending the stimulus money we've allocated, for the most part. It's no wonder things aren't improving.

Perhaps I should have been more clear. I think the problem is deficit spending. Sure, that helps the economy for now, but the credit will eventually run out, and then we're all in a world of hurt. Plus, how much are we spending to service this debt? How much of our government's spending is going to other countries.


The credit isn't going to run out. We are the fucking United States of America. If we falter, the whole world falters. We essentially have the entire world economy under stockholm syndrome, and I would bet every country would rather forgive 100% of US debt to them than have everyone stop lending.

But don't you think some lenders are already pulling in the reins on US borrowing? We might lose our AAA credit rating. I have no idea what effect that will have, but I foresee individual lenders deciding that it's too risky to keep giving us money that we have no intention of paying back.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:28 pm

JazzOne wrote:Perhaps I should have been more clear. I think the problem is deficit spending. Sure, that helps the economy for now, but the credit will eventually run out, and then we're all in a world of hurt. Plus, how much are we spending to service this debt? How much of our government's spending is going to other countries?

Deficit spending is exactly what you have to do in a recession. Lower taxes and higher spending, it's going to result in a deficit.

The existing deficit we're carrying is because we didn't do what we were supposed to economically, which is balance the budget when things got better. Instead we've had people pushing for tax cuts on a regular basis for the last 20 years irresponsibly. But we can't worry about that right now, what we have to worry about right now is the fact that we're in a recession and we have to get things moving in an upward direction again before things like raising taxes and reducing spending make sense.

User avatar
Hannibal
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:00 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Hannibal » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:29 pm

The risk of not being paid back (which hasn't been true so far, we have never failed to pay back loans) is way less than the risk of total economic collapse if the US stops borrowing money.

User avatar
JazzOne
Posts: 2938
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:04 am

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JazzOne » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:31 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
JazzOne wrote:Perhaps I should have been more clear. I think the problem is deficit spending. Sure, that helps the economy for now, but the credit will eventually run out, and then we're all in a world of hurt. Plus, how much are we spending to service this debt? How much of our government's spending is going to other countries?

Deficit spending is exactly what you have to do in a recession. Lower taxes and higher spending, it's going to result in a deficit.

The existing deficit we're carrying is because we didn't do what we were supposed to economically, which is balance the budget when things got better. Instead we've had people pushing for tax cuts on a regular basis for the last 20 years irresponsibly. But we can't worry about that right now, what we have to worry about right now is the fact that we're in a recession and we have to get things moving in an upward direction again before things like raising taxes and reducing spending make sense.

OK, that makes sense. But perhaps this time we were so irresponsible during the boom that it will be impossible to get the economy moving up within the next few years. And suppose we do right the ship. Does anyone actually believe we'll pay down the national debt? Or will we simply wait for the next crash?

User avatar
Hannibal
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:00 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Hannibal » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:33 pm

The current economic wasn't caused by too much spending. If anything it was because we didn't spend enough on wall street oversight.

If the economy collapses so much that the economy totally freezes, then nobody will give a crap about debt anymore anyway.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:37 pm

JazzOne wrote:OK, that makes sense. But perhaps this time we were so irresponsible during the boom that it will be impossible to get the economy moving up within the next few years. And suppose we do right the ship. Does anyone actually believe we'll pay down the national debt? Or will we simply wait for the next crash?

I believe that we could. Will we is another question. We seem to like waiting and not paying our debts; the Bush-era tax cuts are a prime example of that. Once we get out of this (and we have to act like we will; behaving as though all is already lost doesn't accomplish much of anything useful) we can hopefully work on debt reduction, but that's a problem to worry about if we can reach that point, not now.

User avatar
JazzOne
Posts: 2938
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:04 am

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby JazzOne » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:41 pm

Hannibal wrote:The current economic wasn't caused by too much spending. If anything it was because we didn't spend enough on wall street oversight.

If the economy collapses so much that the economy totally freezes, then nobody will give a crap about debt anymore anyway.

I never said that spending caused the recession. My position is that deficit spending has created a debt load that will preclude an economic recovery for a decade.
Last edited by JazzOne on Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
sundance95
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby sundance95 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:42 pm

JazzOne wrote:But don't you think some lenders are already pulling in the reins on US borrowing?


Given the current T-Bill yields...no. The bond market has given no indication of being nervous about US government debt. As bad as things are, we are *not* Greece or Ireland or Spain, neither in terms of our debt as a % of GDP nor in terms of the overall strength of our economy.

Of course, that doesn't mean the bond market won't change it's mind some time in the future-but given ITE, we really should be more concerned with the prospects of a double dip and therefore should be deficit spending. The issue is whether our political system will be able to reduce the deficit if/when things get better.

User avatar
Hannibal
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:00 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Hannibal » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:44 pm

So if we get as bad as Greece...we'll be bailed out, like Greece.

Because keeping everyone's economy up is a good thing for everyone.

12262010
Posts: 612
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:15 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby 12262010 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:48 pm

wow, this turned into a fucking mess.

User avatar
sundance95
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby sundance95 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:50 pm

Hannibal wrote:So if we get as bad as Greece...we'll be bailed out, like Greece.


Who's gonna bail us out? We aren't part of a larger EU like organization, and even if we were, it certainly couldn't afford to bail us out.

By the way, Greece is not exactly being 'bailed out.' They've had to cut their fiscal budget by about 10% at a time when they are experience major negative growth. The cumulative effect has been estimated to be as high as a 25% reduction in GDP. That is the nightmare scenario that would take 10+ years to recover from.

Of course, if Greece could print their own currency, they could simply print bills until inflation reduced that debt to a manageable level...not an ideal situation, but far better than the one they find themselves in.

User avatar
sundance95
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby sundance95 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:53 pm

booyakasha wrote:wow, this turned into a fucking mess.


Sorry, I'll get back on topic.
Image
--ImageRemoved--

User avatar
Hannibal
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:00 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Hannibal » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:55 pm

sundance95 wrote:
Hannibal wrote:So if we get as bad as Greece...we'll be bailed out, like Greece.


Of course, if Greece could print their own currency, they could simply print bills until inflation reduced that debt to a manageable level...not an ideal situation, but far better than the one they find themselves in.


Haha, I actually wanted to avoid mentioning this since I think it would be the one thing to stop other countries from lending to us (but only after we pay off existing debt).

Being "like Greece" was a bad statement since we're talking about debt. I think we'd get bailed out with some kind of comprehensive debt forgiveness thing. I just know that the other countries wouldn't let the US destroy itself economically unless the political situation goes terrible.

User avatar
mpasi
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby mpasi » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:56 pm

Hannibal wrote:So if we get as bad as Greece...we'll be bailed out, like Greece.

Because keeping everyone's economy up is a good thing for everyone.



I don't think austerity would work for us.

User avatar
Sentry
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:38 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby Sentry » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:00 pm

mpasi wrote:
Hannibal wrote:So if we get as bad as Greece...we'll be bailed out, like Greece.

Because keeping everyone's economy up is a good thing for everyone.



I don't think austerity would work for us.

If it doesn't I'm sure we could find a reason to "liberate" some countries that we owe.

User avatar
sundance95
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby sundance95 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:00 pm

Hannibal wrote:Being "like Greece" was a bad statement since we're talking about debt. I think we'd get bailed out with some kind of comprehensive debt forgiveness thing. I just know that the other countries wouldn't let the US destroy itself economically unless the political situation goes terrible.


You're talking about default. Inflation would be a far easier road to hoe than default.

User avatar
sundance95
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby sundance95 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:01 pm

Sentry wrote:If it doesn't I'm sure we could find a reason to "liberate" some countries that we owe.


Yeah, that'd be cost effective.

Image

User avatar
ResolutePear
Posts: 8614
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:07 pm

Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:03 pm

What we need to do is put Bill Clinton on the ballot and get him back in office.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BobBoblaw and 1 guest