Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:21 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
doyleoil wrote:Part of the problem is that no one bothers to tell most people that they're dumb until they get to law school.

And the LSAT and your undergrad GPA in _______ Studies are no indicator of your intelligence.

And even when you're smart, there's a serious chance you're too lazy to follow through on an entire year of law school tasks.

So the odds are against you.


+1


God damn, I swear that's exactly why people need to go work for 4-5 years before going to law school. That's nothing good work ethic development can't cure.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:22 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Mid Law is Big Law billables (2200+) with small firm/PI pay (35k).




I like you bro



no homo


Right back at 'cha!

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vanwinkle
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:22 pm

I will say that for those of you hoping for BigLaw or prestigious government work, then no, there are not enough jobs to go around for all the T14 kids wanting them. Even at Harvard there are kids who struck out at OCI, but I know a couple who're brushing it off and lining up interviews at smaller markets and less competitive places. That's the thing; the legal market is competitive, and for most people at a T14 your degree will make you competitive enough to find work somewhere... just not necessarily at a place that will pay you six figures.

If you want to make bank and live like a baller, then no, maybe you shouldn't be going to law school just to find that, even at a T14. But if you want to be a lawyer, you're going to a T14 school, and you understand that not making six figures is not the end of the world, then there are going to be plenty of opportunities for you. It'll still be competitive; you still have to compete for those jobs, and nothing is guaranteed, but it's not so dire that you're likely screwed even at a T14.

It's important to keep in mind your financial picture, though, and how you'll pay off what loans you take. If you're taking out significant loans, IBR is your friend. IBR also means you're not going to have "a ruined life" as OP suggests. It's not going to be easy, but it's not going to be devastating if you actually planned for it from the beginning, like you should anwyay.

In short: OP's ramble is for people who don't know what they're getting themselves into, but is not getting any respect because the tone is a hyperbolic "don't go, everyone's fucked" and not the more reasonable "know what you're getting yourself into and that it'll be hard" that it should be.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby whymeohgodno » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:23 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
doyleoil wrote:Part of the problem is that no one bothers to tell most people that they're dumb until they get to law school.

And the LSAT and your undergrad GPA in _______ Studies are no indicator of your intelligence.

And even when you're smart, there's a serious chance you're too lazy to follow through on an entire year of law school tasks.

So the odds are against you.


+1


God damn, I swear that's exactly why people need to go work for 4-5 years before going to law school. That's nothing good work ethic development can't cure.


Lolwut.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:25 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
doyleoil wrote:Part of the problem is that no one bothers to tell most people that they're dumb until they get to law school.

And the LSAT and your undergrad GPA in _______ Studies are no indicator of your intelligence.

And even when you're smart, there's a serious chance you're too lazy to follow through on an entire year of law school tasks.

So the odds are against you.


+1


God damn, I swear that's exactly why people need to go work for 4-5 years before going to law school. That's nothing good work ethic development can't cure.


Lolwut.


If you have good work ethic, you'll follow through with everything because "in real life" there are no grades, there are *usually* no make ups. You fuck up once and out the door you go! Miss a deadline? Out the door! Don't maximize efficiency? Eventually - you guessed it.. out the door!

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kalvano
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby kalvano » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:25 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:Lolwut.



He's suggesting that people be required to spend a little time in the real world before being admitted to law school.

Not a bad idea, really.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:27 pm

kalvano wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:Lolwut.



He's suggesting that people be required to spend a little time in the real world before being admitted to law school.

Not a bad idea, really.


This. And, everybody pay attention Kal's avatar. That is all.

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blackwater88
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby blackwater88 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:27 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
If you have good work ethic, you'll follow through with everything because "in real life" there are no grades, there are *usually* no make ups. You fuck up once and out the door you go! Miss a deadline? Out the door! Don't maximize efficiency? Eventually - you guessed it.. out the door!


That's a given though, if you don't make or save your firm money, why would they keep you?

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby whymeohgodno » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:29 pm

If you have good work ethic, you'll follow through with everything because "in real life" there are no grades, there are *usually* no make ups. You fuck up once and out the door you go! Miss a deadline? Out the door! Don't maximize efficiency? Eventually - you guessed it.. out the door!


I guess I've just met too many people with impeccable work ethics that have failed horribly when it came to anything that actually mattered.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby 12262010 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:30 pm

rayiner wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
rayiner wrote:I had a biglaw partner after a callback make a joke to me about someone going to a shitty school (solid regional T2).


...Did you get hired? The answer sounds obvious - but I know a lawyer who went to a solid regional T2 and is now a partner for a firm where elitism is rampant. Why did this lawyer make partner? Probably because of the book of business.


I go to a T14. The partner definitely said it in a "just amongst us T14 folks" sort of way. The thing is he's actually a really nice person. The elitism is so deeply ingrained into the culture that people don't even think about it.

That being said, it's hardly unique to law, nor is it really unwarranted. We live in an age of federally-backed loans and merit-based admissions. It's not like in the past where you went to Harvard because your family was rich and blue-blooded. Anyone can go to Harvard --- you just need to make the grades and get the test scores. It's not "elitism" in the traditional sense.


I had a partner tell me was happy to finally talk to a "double Ivy student" and then he proceeded to talk about how we're better than other people.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:30 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:In short: OP's ramble is for people who don't know what they're getting themselves into, but is not getting any respect because the tone is a hyperbolic "don't go, everyone's fucked" and not the more reasonable "know what you're getting yourself into and that it'll be hard" that it should be.

In my opinion, there are precisely three law schools worth paying sticker to attend, and you happen to attend one of them -- and even there, you find people with nothing but "I'll come up with something" for a plan. You and I both know at least one person with the classic profile of a successful law student -- T14, great grades -- who can't find anything but contract work.

Yeah, you make an excellent point: people should know what they are getting into. I would argue that OP's post (while clearly polemic) provides a useful counterbalance to our typical approach at TLS.


That's the risk factor.

Let me pose this question: Is that particular lawyer doomed to contract work for the rest of his life? I'd assume even lawyers practicing on a contract basis can eventually be employed by a firm, corp, etc. after a certain time. But please, enlighten me if you know the answer to this.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:32 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
If you have good work ethic, you'll follow through with everything because "in real life" there are no grades, there are *usually* no make ups. You fuck up once and out the door you go! Miss a deadline? Out the door! Don't maximize efficiency? Eventually - you guessed it.. out the door!


I guess I've just met too many people with impeccable work ethics that have failed horribly when it came to anything that actually mattered.


Smart with good work ethic and still failed when it mattered? Then there is something amidst there.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby rayiner » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:33 pm

booyakasha wrote:I had a partner tell me was happy to finally talk to a "double Ivy student" and then he proceeded to talk about how we're better than other people.


Christ.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby whymeohgodno » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:34 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
If you have good work ethic, you'll follow through with everything because "in real life" there are no grades, there are *usually* no make ups. You fuck up once and out the door you go! Miss a deadline? Out the door! Don't maximize efficiency? Eventually - you guessed it.. out the door!


I guess I've just met too many people with impeccable work ethics that have failed horribly when it came to anything that actually mattered.


Smart with good work ethic and still failed when it mattered? Then there is something amidst there.


Oops, misread you. Yeh I've never met someone smart with a good work ethic that failed. Just a lot of people with what must be hidden learning disabilities that dedicated their entire lives to studying and academics but failed miserably.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:34 pm

booyakasha wrote:
rayiner wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
rayiner wrote:I had a biglaw partner after a callback make a joke to me about someone going to a shitty school (solid regional T2).


...Did you get hired? The answer sounds obvious - but I know a lawyer who went to a solid regional T2 and is now a partner for a firm where elitism is rampant. Why did this lawyer make partner? Probably because of the book of business.


I go to a T14. The partner definitely said it in a "just amongst us T14 folks" sort of way. The thing is he's actually a really nice person. The elitism is so deeply ingrained into the culture that people don't even think about it.

That being said, it's hardly unique to law, nor is it really unwarranted. We live in an age of federally-backed loans and merit-based admissions. It's not like in the past where you went to Harvard because your family was rich and blue-blooded. Anyone can go to Harvard --- you just need to make the grades and get the test scores. It's not "elitism" in the traditional sense.


I had a partner tell me was happy to finally talk to a "double Ivy student" and then he proceeded to talk about how we're better than other people.


Nothing wrong with that. You've put in your due diligence and deserve to be rewarded.. even if it's just a mutual ego massage; plus the other stuff that follows that.

I'd sit there and agree, to be honest.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby whymeohgodno » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:35 pm

I had a partner tell me was happy to finally talk to a "double Ivy student" and then he proceeded to talk about how we're better than other people.


Just wondering, how did you respond?

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rayiner
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby rayiner » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:37 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
I had a partner tell me was happy to finally talk to a "double Ivy student" and then he proceeded to talk about how we're better than other people.


Just wondering, how did you respond?


"Fuck those TTT MIT/Caltech grads."

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby whymeohgodno » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:39 pm

rayiner wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
I had a partner tell me was happy to finally talk to a "double Ivy student" and then he proceeded to talk about how we're better than other people.


Just wondering, how did you respond?


"Fuck those TTT MIT/Caltech grads."


I know right? Screw those Stanford grads also. Ivy forever? :D

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby 12262010 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:39 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
I had a partner tell me was happy to finally talk to a "double Ivy student" and then he proceeded to talk about how we're better than other people.


Just wondering, how did you respond?


I laughed and briefly agreed without elaborating.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:40 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Let me pose this question: Is that particular lawyer doomed to contract work for the rest of his life? I'd assume even lawyers practicing on a contract basis can eventually be employed by a firm, corp, etc. after a certain time. But please, enlighten me if you know the answer to this.


I should defer this to someone more adept w/r/t this type of knowledge. As it stands, I will take a meager stab (with the caveat that I am no expert):

It is likely that this person could arrive at firm/corp work in the next year or two. The problem is that in the legal world, transfers seem to flow from "more money" to "less money," not the other way around. E.g., to go from biglaw to relevant PI happens much more often than from PI to relevant biglaw. Eventually, someone has no choice but to take some full time job, and that sets certain parts of the career arc.

Again, I reiterate, I am not an expert.


Thanks and I recognize the caveat, if anybody else has relevant information to this, it'd be appreciated.

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby 12262010 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:40 pm

rayiner wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
I had a partner tell me was happy to finally talk to a "double Ivy student" and then he proceeded to talk about how we're better than other people.


Just wondering, how did you respond?


"Fuck those TTT MIT/Caltech grads."


:lol:

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby D. H2Oman » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:41 pm

rayiner wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
I had a partner tell me was happy to finally talk to a "double Ivy student" and then he proceeded to talk about how we're better than other people.


Just wondering, how did you respond?


"Fuck those TTT MIT/Caltech grads."



Image

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:42 pm

rayiner wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
I had a partner tell me was happy to finally talk to a "double Ivy student" and then he proceeded to talk about how we're better than other people.


Just wondering, how did you respond?


"Fuck those TTT MIT/Caltech grads."


Holy shit. MIT has a LS?

I'm going to go study technology law and go around the globe in my Gundam or w/e you huge ass robots those MIT hipsters ride around in nowadays, to practice law. In fact, I AM THE LAW!

(Quick, somebody post a Judge Dread pic)

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby digitalcntrl » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:54 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
digitalcntrl wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
I'm sorry but this just isn't true. Just because you love law and are passionate about it, it doesn't mean that law school is a great place for you.

Like with all other jobs, just loving it and having a passion for it isn't enough for you to be able to make a living out of doing it.

Especially in a field like law where the market is crowded and jobs are rare if you didn't graduate from a top school or have top grades.


I think bigger issue is that everything else out there is even shittier. As Mystal said, LS appears to be a 3 year fallout shelter.


There are many jobs out there that don't require 3 years + 160k in debt that pays as well as if not better than what many law school grads are making.

Having 160k in debt with a J.D and no job is far worse than being out of college and unemployed without a J.D and no debt.


1) That presumes that incoming LS students could get those jobs. (I presume most students these days go to LS to avoid a horrible job market as opposed to trying for bigger and better careers).

2) LS is a shot at good/better pay (with a certain opportunity cost), compared with unemployment and depression, people naturally choose the former (to at least do something with their lives).

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Re: Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14

Postby whymeohgodno » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:13 pm

digitalcntrl wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
digitalcntrl wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
I'm sorry but this just isn't true. Just because you love law and are passionate about it, it doesn't mean that law school is a great place for you.

Like with all other jobs, just loving it and having a passion for it isn't enough for you to be able to make a living out of doing it.

Especially in a field like law where the market is crowded and jobs are rare if you didn't graduate from a top school or have top grades.


I think bigger issue is that everything else out there is even shittier. As Mystal said, LS appears to be a 3 year fallout shelter.


There are many jobs out there that don't require 3 years + 160k in debt that pays as well as if not better than what many law school grads are making.

Having 160k in debt with a J.D and no job is far worse than being out of college and unemployed without a J.D and no debt.


1) That presumes that incoming LS students could get those jobs. (I presume most students these days go to LS to avoid a horrible job market as opposed to trying for bigger and better careers).

2) LS is a shot at good/better pay (with a certain opportunity cost), compared with unemployment and depression, people naturally choose the former (to at least do something with their lives).


This all depends on your LSAT/GPA.




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