UVA, UMich, or Northwestern?

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )

UVA, UMich, or Northwestern?

UVA
27
31%
UMichigan
36
41%
Northwestern
24
28%
 
Total votes: 87

005618502
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Re: UVA, UMich, or Northwestern?

Postby 005618502 » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:13 pm

rad law wrote:See if you get into these school. Then make this post again.


+1

showNprove
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Re: UVA, UMich, or Northwestern?

Postby showNprove » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:27 pm

RVP11 wrote:
silly101 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:Please don't listen to 0L/1Ls and this "if you want DC, go to UVA, if you want California, go to Michigan, etc." business.

What matters when it comes to OCI are A) your grades and B) your connection to the market. Firms in DC aren't digging significantly deeper (if at all) into UVA than they are into Michigan or NU, Chicago firms aren't digging significantly deeper (if at all) into NU or Michigan than they are into UVA. And you're not going to have much success in California coming from ANY of the above schools if you don't have a legitimate California (or at least west coast) tie. UVA is not a great place to go if you want to practice at a big firm in DC, unless you can somehow guarantee that you will both be in the top 25% of the class and a good interviewer at OGI and at least a little bit lucky. Good grades plus decent interviewing can probably get you NYC BigLaw from any of these schools.

The point is this decision should not be significantly influenced by the regional placement strength of these schools as perceived by people who are year(s) away from even interviewing.


what do you mean by west coast tie? some ppl say that having family there is enough...true?

also-i guess if i threw penn into the mix you would categorize it as the same?-grades/connection to market


"Having family there" - that would depend on the family. Cousin? No. Brother/sister? Probably not. Parents or significant other? Now we're talking, but still not as good as having grown up there.

And yes, Penn would be in the same category.

Building on these points:

Assume you are from Illinois and you want to practice in Chicago. There are two ways of going about your decision. If you are 100% certain you want to practice in Chicago, that practicing in Chicago is your top priority, go to Northwestern. Why? Because you will have the most access to Chicago jobs. If you are below the median, you will at least be able to compete for DA jobs or similarly less-competitive jobs.

However, if you want to practice in Chicago, but it's not the end-all-be-all of your career choices, you should probably go to UVA. Why? 1) It's the furthest from Chicago, so you will have less people competing for the same jobs. 2) Because of #1 and your ties, you will get interviews at nearly every Chicago firm coming to OGI that isn't far outside your grade range.

RVP is right: grades matter most, then connections. If you go to a school where nearly everyone has connections to the market you want, then you're just 1 in 200 and would have to rely on grades and grades alone (well, grades and Law Review and maybe moot court) to get you the job. Trust me, you don't want to do that.


Edit: There are obviously many similar scenarios. If you're not from the Chicago area and want to work in Chicago, Northwestern would give you that connection. You have to weigh your situation and preferences more carefully than the general TLS advice of "go to school where you want to practice." If you want to practice in your home market, go to school somewhere else (as long as it is of comparable quality) because you'll be able to come back fairly easily. If you want to practice in a market that values connections (e.g., Houston) that you don't have, going to school in that market might be beneficial (however, if you want to work in Richmond but are not from VA, don't bother going to UVA, and re-think your plans; every firm will be scared you'll jump ship to DC at your first chance). If you want to work in a market that doesn't value connection (e.g. NYC or DC), go to the best school you can with the largest OGI.

In other words, it's simply not simple.

showNprove
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Re: UVA, UMich, or Northwestern?

Postby showNprove » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:02 pm

.
Last edited by showNprove on Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rayiner
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Re: UVA, UMich, or Northwestern?

Postby rayiner » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:15 pm

showNprove wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:If by the bolded you mean "not the best law school in the entire nation for DC" then yes. But unless you've been accepted to HYS or arguably CC UVA is about as good as it's going to get. It's not like going to Michigan or NU will give you a better shot. Numerous 3L's have told me (who've gone through OGI and cemented where they are going to work upon graduation) that although DC is tough, our alumni base there is very strong and definitely helps us. It's no different than NYU having a strong alumni base in NYC and that helping them, or Berkeley's alumni base in San Francisco helping them.

The other thing to take into account is that a lot more DC firms come to UVA's OGI than they do to NU or Michigan's OCI. That's not the end all be all but it certainly helps if the firm is coming right to your campus to interview.

UVA is great for DC if your GPA is 3.6+. Otherwise, you're one of about 150 DC-focused students fighting against the guys with 3.6 GPA's or better.


I second this. Also, if you have some legitimate hook that makes you attractive in DC (IP, whatever) go to NU. You'll have your pick of firms coming to OCI/off-campus program and will really stand out from the crowd.

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Re: UVA, UMich, or Northwestern?

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:20 pm

rayiner wrote:I second this. Also, if you have some legitimate hook that makes you attractive in DC (IP, whatever) go to NU. You'll have your pick of firms coming to OCI/off-campus program and will really stand out from the crowd.


It's kind of funny how people use this argument for UVA and DC, but never for NYU/CLS and NYU, Chicago/NU for Chicago, Berkeley for SF etc. Suddenly it's better to go to NU to work in DC than UVA, but it's not a good idea to go to Berkeley over NU to work in Chicago.

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rayiner
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Re: UVA, UMich, or Northwestern?

Postby rayiner » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:23 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
rayiner wrote:I second this. Also, if you have some legitimate hook that makes you attractive in DC (IP, whatever) go to NU. You'll have your pick of firms coming to OCI/off-campus program and will really stand out from the crowd.


It's kind of funny how people use this argument for UVA and DC, but never for NYU/CLS and NYU, Chicago/NU for Chicago, Berkeley for SF etc. Suddenly it's better to go to NU to work in DC than UVA, but it's not a good idea to go to Berkeley over NU to work in Chicago.


Chicago and SF are insular markets that care about ties. NYC and DC are open markets that don't. Lots of NY/DC firms do OCI at NU. Not a lot of Chicago firms do OCI at Berkeley. Etc.

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Re: UVA, UMich, or Northwestern?

Postby RVP11 » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:41 pm

rayiner wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
rayiner wrote:I second this. Also, if you have some legitimate hook that makes you attractive in DC (IP, whatever) go to NU. You'll have your pick of firms coming to OCI/off-campus program and will really stand out from the crowd.


It's kind of funny how people use this argument for UVA and DC, but never for NYU/CLS and NYU, Chicago/NU for Chicago, Berkeley for SF etc. Suddenly it's better to go to NU to work in DC than UVA, but it's not a good idea to go to Berkeley over NU to work in Chicago.


Chicago and SF are insular markets that care about ties. NYC and DC are open markets that don't. Lots of NY/DC firms do OCI at NU. Not a lot of Chicago firms do OCI at Berkeley. Etc.


This, plus DC is super grades-focused and the overall demand for SA slots far outstrips the supply - moreso than in any other legal market in the country, probably. And UVA has an unbelievably DC-focused studentry.

BruceWayne: you have two UVA 2Ls here telling you that going to UVA for big DC firms = you better get 3.5+/3.6+. We have plenty of first- and second-hand experience with OGI, man. Your average UVA Law Review grade-on person will sooner go to a Steptoe & Johnson or a Hunton & Williams (no disrespect at all to those firms) than to a V20 in New York City. I'm willing to guess that's unique for a T14 law school. You don't want to be competing with that when it comes to getting OGI preselect slots.

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Re: UVA, UMich, or Northwestern?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:59 pm

RVP11 wrote:This, plus DC is super grades-focused and the overall demand for SA slots far outstrips the supply - moreso than in any other legal market in the country, probably. And UVA has an unbelievably DC-focused studentry.

BruceWayne: you have two UVA 2Ls here telling you that going to UVA for big DC firms = you better get 3.5+/3.6+. We have plenty of first- and second-hand experience with OGI, man. Your average UVA Law Review grade-on person will sooner go to a Steptoe & Johnson or a Hunton & Williams (no disrespect at all to those firms) than to a V20 in New York City. I'm willing to guess that's unique for a T14 law school. You don't want to be competing with that when it comes to getting OGI preselect slots.


LMAO!!! That's one of the reasons I love this place--people here realize NYC is not the be all end all. UVA students really have different tastes in locales than the average TLS poster. I've met a lot of students here who would love to practice in Atlanta, Dallas, or even Baltimore. Those locales get completely pissed on by most of TLS. Hell I didn't even know Baltimore had a legal market before I got here. It honestly seems like a substantial amount of people who end up working in NYC from UVA do so because that ends up being there only option---not because they want to be there. That's in stark contrast to essentially every top 14 school outside of Stanford, Boalt, and maybe Chicago + NU. I think the majority of students at all the other top 14 schools go in with NYC as their top choice. Oops I forgot GULC goes in that group with us.

As far as the difficulty in working in DC from UVA I get your point. But I get sort of a mixed bag on that from 3L's. A few were telling me that if you aren't holding out for Cov or W&C it's even if you aren't top 1/3 etc. To lend support to what you're saying though, the website says 218 grads went to DC firms between 07 and 09. If you do the math that's about 1/3 of each class each year getting DC firm jobs, that does reasonably line up with your comments.

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IAFG
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Re: UVA, UMich, or Northwestern?

Postby IAFG » Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:09 pm

rayiner wrote:If you want to work in Chicago -> You don't want to work in Chicago, there are no jobs here.
If you want to work anywhere else -> UVA.

How good is your work experience?

rancid anti-NU trolling. traitor.

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rayiner
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Re: UVA, UMich, or Northwestern?

Postby rayiner » Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:11 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
RVP11 wrote:This, plus DC is super grades-focused and the overall demand for SA slots far outstrips the supply - moreso than in any other legal market in the country, probably. And UVA has an unbelievably DC-focused studentry.

BruceWayne: you have two UVA 2Ls here telling you that going to UVA for big DC firms = you better get 3.5+/3.6+. We have plenty of first- and second-hand experience with OGI, man. Your average UVA Law Review grade-on person will sooner go to a Steptoe & Johnson or a Hunton & Williams (no disrespect at all to those firms) than to a V20 in New York City. I'm willing to guess that's unique for a T14 law school. You don't want to be competing with that when it comes to getting OGI preselect slots.


LMAO!!! That's one of the reasons I love this place--people here realize NYC is not the be all end all. UVA students really have different tastes in locales than the average TLS poster. I've met a lot of students here who would love to practice in Atlanta, Dallas, or even Baltimore. Those locales get completely pissed on by most of TLS. Hell I didn't even know Baltimore had a legal market before I got here. It honestly seems like a substantial amount of people who end up working in NYC from UVA do so because that ends up being there only option---not because they want to be there. That's in stark contrast to essentially every top 14 school outside of Stanford, Boalt, and maybe Chicago + NU. I think the majority of students at all the other top 14 schools go in with NYC as their top choice. Oops I forgot GULC goes in that group with us.

As far as the difficulty in working in DC from UVA I get your point. But I get sort of a mixed bag on that from 3L's. A few were telling me that if you aren't holding out for Cov or W&C it's even if you aren't top 1/3 etc. To lend support to what you're saying though, the website says 218 grads went to DC firms between 07 and 09. If you do the math that's about 1/3 of each class each year getting DC firm jobs, that does reasonably line up with your comments.


UVA graduated 360+400+405 JDs in that 3 year period. So its more like 20%.

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rayiner
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Re: UVA, UMich, or Northwestern?

Postby rayiner » Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:12 pm

IAFG wrote:
rayiner wrote:If you want to work in Chicago -> You don't want to work in Chicago, there are no jobs here.
If you want to work anywhere else -> UVA.

How good is your work experience?

rancid anti-NU trolling. traitor.


Not anti-NU trolling. NU's national reach is under-appreciated. I know more than one non-LR person with offers in DC.

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Re: UVA, UMich, or Northwestern?

Postby tea_drinker » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:03 pm

Thank you everyone for the lively discussion and for partaking in the poll.

:D




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