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sanetruth
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Postby sanetruth » Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:27 pm

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Last edited by sanetruth on Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pip
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby Pip » Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:03 pm

sanetruth wrote:So we all know the questions on all applications like "have you ever been convicted of a felony?" and "have you ever been removed or banned from a public organization", "have you ever been discharged from the military"...

but on one app, i saw "have you ever been fired or unwillingly terminated from a job due to lack of performance" (paraphrased, and i can't remember which app it is, i'm too lazy to look right now)

it goes on to say, of course, that failure to disclose and explain such information constitutes an ethics violation that, if found out, can prevent one from sitting for the bar or being disbarred.

anyways, my dilemma. I was 'informally fired' from a part time college job. It was a job i had throughout college, in which the only higher-up was the boss, who I knew very well. A new rule was put in place my fourth year there that I had on many previous occasions 'violated' but obviously never been subject to discipline for because it wasn't a rule then. so, the new rule was put in place, and naturally i started to unknowingly violate it. my boss told me that it was mainly put in place for the younger, coming up employees (I was a supervisor). Anyways, to cut to the chase, I violated this new rule a second time and my boss made an example of me, probably because he knew i was graduating in two months and informally 'fired me'. What I mean by that was he called me on the phone and said 'I guess i'm gonna have to fire you'. There was no paperwork, no nothing, i just never went to work again for the next few months, and my boss got to say to the newcomers 'if you don't comply, you'll be fired like him (i.e. i'm not messing around)'

anyways, is this something I need to disclose on my application to this particular school? It seems so arbitrary and random, but i'm afraid that if I don't say anything, it could come back to haunt me? And, to the contrary, if I do say something I feel like it will hurt my application, because the informality of it really gives no good explanation.

No other app that I have seen asks for information about being fired.


If you are going to list the name of your past employer then they could come back and tell someone that you were terminated... if you aren't listing them anywhere then no one is ever going to know.

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sanetruth
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby sanetruth » Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:38 pm

Pip wrote:
sanetruth wrote:So we all know the questions on all applications like "have you ever been convicted of a felony?" and "have you ever been removed or banned from a public organization", "have you ever been discharged from the military"...

but on one app, i saw "have you ever been fired or unwillingly terminated from a job due to lack of performance" (paraphrased, and i can't remember which app it is, i'm too lazy to look right now)

it goes on to say, of course, that failure to disclose and explain such information constitutes an ethics violation that, if found out, can prevent one from sitting for the bar or being disbarred.

anyways, my dilemma. I was 'informally fired' from a part time college job. It was a job i had throughout college, in which the only higher-up was the boss, who I knew very well. A new rule was put in place my fourth year there that I had on many previous occasions 'violated' but obviously never been subject to discipline for because it wasn't a rule then. so, the new rule was put in place, and naturally i started to unknowingly violate it. my boss told me that it was mainly put in place for the younger, coming up employees (I was a supervisor). Anyways, to cut to the chase, I violated this new rule a second time and my boss made an example of me, probably because he knew i was graduating in two months and informally 'fired me'. What I mean by that was he called me on the phone and said 'I guess i'm gonna have to fire you'. There was no paperwork, no nothing, i just never went to work again for the next few months, and my boss got to say to the newcomers 'if you don't comply, you'll be fired like him (i.e. i'm not messing around)'

anyways, is this something I need to disclose on my application to this particular school? It seems so arbitrary and random, but i'm afraid that if I don't say anything, it could come back to haunt me? And, to the contrary, if I do say something I feel like it will hurt my application, because the informality of it really gives no good explanation.

No other app that I have seen asks for information about being fired.


If you are going to list the name of your past employer then they could come back and tell someone that you were terminated... if you aren't listing them anywhere then no one is ever going to know.


So I guess it's the difference between naming the job I had throughout college or not.

Which is better, adding that I worked part time throughout college but that I got 'fired' at the end? Or taking it off my resume completely and saying I didn't have a job at all during college.

Tough choice.

trudat15
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby trudat15 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:42 pm

Pip wrote:
sanetruth wrote:So we all know the questions on all applications like "have you ever been convicted of a felony?" and "have you ever been removed or banned from a public organization", "have you ever been discharged from the military"...

but on one app, i saw "have you ever been fired or unwillingly terminated from a job due to lack of performance" (paraphrased, and i can't remember which app it is, i'm too lazy to look right now)

it goes on to say, of course, that failure to disclose and explain such information constitutes an ethics violation that, if found out, can prevent one from sitting for the bar or being disbarred.

anyways, my dilemma. I was 'informally fired' from a part time college job. It was a job i had throughout college, in which the only higher-up was the boss, who I knew very well. A new rule was put in place my fourth year there that I had on many previous occasions 'violated' but obviously never been subject to discipline for because it wasn't a rule then. so, the new rule was put in place, and naturally i started to unknowingly violate it. my boss told me that it was mainly put in place for the younger, coming up employees (I was a supervisor). Anyways, to cut to the chase, I violated this new rule a second time and my boss made an example of me, probably because he knew i was graduating in two months and informally 'fired me'. What I mean by that was he called me on the phone and said 'I guess i'm gonna have to fire you'. There was no paperwork, no nothing, i just never went to work again for the next few months, and my boss got to say to the newcomers 'if you don't comply, you'll be fired like him (i.e. i'm not messing around)'

anyways, is this something I need to disclose on my application to this particular school? It seems so arbitrary and random, but i'm afraid that if I don't say anything, it could come back to haunt me? And, to the contrary, if I do say something I feel like it will hurt my application, because the informality of it really gives no good explanation.

No other app that I have seen asks for information about being fired.


If you are going to list the name of your past employer then they could come back and tell someone that you were terminated... if you aren't listing them anywhere then no one is ever going to know.



I would disclose. They can always find out if you've been terminated by looking through your work employers through your SSN. When they do a background check for the bar, they may see it and it's not good if you didnt disclose it when you applied to school. Dont know how the bar process works though. I suppose you might be able to get away with you, I just wouldnt take a chance.

jarofsoup
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby jarofsoup » Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:44 pm

'informally fired' were you essentially laid off?

I dont think they are going to follow up on this.

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sanetruth
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby sanetruth » Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:48 pm

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Last edited by sanetruth on Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sanetruth
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby sanetruth » Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:51 pm

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Last edited by sanetruth on Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

trudat15
Posts: 900
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby trudat15 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:55 pm

But if you got checks through your school, you most definitely gave them your social. They w4'd you, so you were an employee. You might want to call the school and follow up and see what's on record, because that's what I would imagine is what's important.
To be honest they probably wont follow up. But would you want to gamble your future legal career on if they didnt?

trudat15
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby trudat15 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:59 pm

sanetruth wrote:So we all know the questions on all applications like "have you ever been convicted of a felony?" and "have you ever been removed or banned from a public organization", "have you ever been discharged from the military"...

but on one app, i saw "have you ever been fired or unwillingly terminated from a job due to lack of performance" (paraphrased, and i can't remember which app it is, i'm too lazy to look right now)

it goes on to say, of course, that failure to disclose and explain such information constitutes an ethics violation that, if found out, can prevent one from sitting for the bar or being disbarred.

anyways, my dilemma. I was 'informally fired' from a part time college job. It was a job i had throughout college, in which the only higher-up was the boss, who I knew very well. A new rule was put in place my fourth year there that I had on many previous occasions 'violated' but obviously never been subject to discipline for because it wasn't a rule then. so, the new rule was put in place, and naturally i started to unknowingly violate it. my boss told me that it was mainly put in place for the younger, coming up employees (I was a supervisor). Anyways, to cut to the chase, I violated this new rule a second time and my boss made an example of me, probably because he knew i was graduating in two months and informally 'fired me'. What I mean by that was he called me on the phone and said 'I guess i'm gonna have to fire you'. There was no paperwork, no nothing, i just never went to work again for the next few months, and my boss got to say to the newcomers 'if you don't comply, you'll be fired like him (i.e. i'm not messing around)'

anyways, is this something I need to disclose on my application to this particular school? It seems so arbitrary and random, but i'm afraid that if I don't say anything, it could come back to haunt me? And, to the contrary, if I do say something I feel like it will hurt my application, because the informality of it really gives no good explanation.

No other app that I have seen asks for information about being fired.


Curious, but what school asks for this? I havent started apps yet, but want to know who asks for what.

merc280
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby merc280 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:01 pm

what if it something like my situation where I told my internship boss I was going on vacation and he said there was no need to fill out any paper work, and that I should just remind him when I got back in town, and when I emailed him letting him know I was back in town he pretended that I had never told him I was taking 2 weeks off and that I should not come to the office because he would have me go home.

Would that count as getting fired? This was a internship not related to school and was a family business(consulting firm)

trudat15
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby trudat15 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:02 pm

trudat15 wrote:But if you got checks through your school, you most definitely gave them your social. They w4'd you, so you were an employee. You might want to call the school and follow up and see what's on record, because that's what I would imagine is what's important.
To be honest they probably wont follow up. But would you want to gamble your future legal career on if they didnt?


Sorry I read your thing wrong - you dont think you were w4'd at all. I do think it's highly unlikely that the school wouldnt require your SSN, unless they were paying you under the table, which I doubt they were doing. For tax purposes, they have to tell the IRS who they are paying and what. Even if it's a crap job.

Anyways, call the department and find out what's on file there.

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sanetruth
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby sanetruth » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:02 pm

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Last edited by sanetruth on Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrAdams
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby MrAdams » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:03 pm

Ignorance. Bliss. Etc.

trudat15
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby trudat15 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:04 pm

merc280 wrote:what if it something like my situation where I told my internship boss I was going on vacation and he said there was no need to fill out any paper work, and that I should just remind him when I got back in town, and when I emailed him letting him know I was back in town he pretended that I had never told him I was taking 2 weeks off and that I should not come to the office because he would have me go home.

Would that count as getting fired? This was a internship not related to school and was a family business(consulting firm)


Doubt you need to disclose. If it's an unpaid internship, just dont put it on your resume.

merc280
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby merc280 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:05 pm

trudat15 wrote:
merc280 wrote:what if it something like my situation where I told my internship boss I was going on vacation and he said there was no need to fill out any paper work, and that I should just remind him when I got back in town, and when I emailed him letting him know I was back in town he pretended that I had never told him I was taking 2 weeks off and that I should not come to the office because he would have me go home.

Would that count as getting fired? This was a internship not related to school and was a family business(consulting firm)


Doubt you need to disclose. If it's an unpaid internship, just dont put it on your resume.



It was paid, just wasn't through the school. Filed a w4 and everything. kept working there for a few weeks until after graduation.

trudat15
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby trudat15 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:06 pm

sanetruth wrote:
trudat15 wrote:But would you want to gamble your future legal career on if they didnt?


exactly. so annoying. still unsure of what to do. maybe I just won't apply to the school that has this requirement haha.


Haha. From what I've read/heard, they dont really care and wouldnt make you a ding. It's just for full disclosure for when you apply to the bar. Might as well apply (if you want to go there) and see what happens. It's not like they'll contact the rest of your schools and be like - "hey, you know sanetruth got fired for a part time job in college!"

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MrKappus
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby MrKappus » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:06 pm

OP: this is not complicated. When one doesn't voluntarily leave a position, then that person's either been laid off or fired. If the separation is performance-based, (i.e., failure to follow a rule) then it's called BEING FIRED, and yes...you have to disclose it.

trudat15
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby trudat15 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:09 pm

merc280 wrote:
trudat15 wrote:
merc280 wrote:what if it something like my situation where I told my internship boss I was going on vacation and he said there was no need to fill out any paper work, and that I should just remind him when I got back in town, and when I emailed him letting him know I was back in town he pretended that I had never told him I was taking 2 weeks off and that I should not come to the office because he would have me go home.

Would that count as getting fired? This was a internship not related to school and was a family business(consulting firm)


Doubt you need to disclose. If it's an unpaid internship, just dont put it on your resume.



It was paid, just wasn't through the school. Filed a w4 and everything. kept working there for a few weeks until after graduation.



Disclose. But before you do, call the former employer and find out what's that company's official HR file they have on you and confirm.

General rule of thumb, when in doubt, disclose.

merc280
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby merc280 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:14 pm

trudat15 wrote:
merc280 wrote:
trudat15 wrote:
merc280 wrote:what if it something like my situation where I told my internship boss I was going on vacation and he said there was no need to fill out any paper work, and that I should just remind him when I got back in town, and when I emailed him letting him know I was back in town he pretended that I had never told him I was taking 2 weeks off and that I should not come to the office because he would have me go home.

Would that count as getting fired? This was a internship not related to school and was a family business(consulting firm)


Doubt you need to disclose. If it's an unpaid internship, just dont put it on your resume.



It was paid, just wasn't through the school. Filed a w4 and everything. kept working there for a few weeks until after graduation.



Disclose. But before you do, call the former employer and find out what's that company's official HR file they have on you and confirm.

General rule of thumb, when in doubt, disclose.



That company didn't have an HR dept-file, and kept no records of interns other than having us fill out w4's. Also this company was run by the son and step father, so not many people involved in upper management.

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esq
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby esq » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:22 pm

It specifically says that you need to be fired for a "lack of job performance," or at least that's the jist of it. I think that the red flag that they are looking for here is more along the lines of your work ethic: were you productive, did you perform your job functions well, or were you a lazy sack of. . . You don't disclose what this new rule is that you broke, but I don't think that you should be conflicted if it really didn't have to do with your job performance. And if it really was as informal a firing as you let on, then your boss probably doesn't remember the slightest thing about why he let you go, in fact he might even think of it more as a resignation. You might be perfectly in bounds just listing the dates that you worked. As with everything in your application, though, if you feel guilty about it, you probably need to disclose.

cartercl
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby cartercl » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:23 pm

Are you serious? I thought you knew the boss very well. You mean to tell me at no point after you were "informally fired" did you speak to your boss about the method of separation? Even if you didn't, you mean to tell me that you couldn't have done this? Come on.

To me you sound like a liar and just another applicant that's trying to get over on the admissions committee. If you do get caught later and punished it serves you right. In all honesty you seem to know that you were FIRED and you just want to find some way to not have to put that on your application. Do the smart thing and just disclose it.
Last edited by cartercl on Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

trudat15
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby trudat15 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:24 pm

merc280 wrote:

That company didn't have an HR dept-file, and kept no records of interns other than having us fill out w4's. Also this company was run by the son and step father, so not many people involved in upper management.


Call the son or step father. See what they say. Tell them youre applying to school and need to know.

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sanetruth
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby sanetruth » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:29 pm

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Last edited by sanetruth on Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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St.Remy
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Re: Possible ethics violation?

Postby St.Remy » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:39 pm

sanetruth wrote: If, in a real job, you are FIRED, it has to be documented as such and signed off on (closing papers) so as to avoid lawsuits etc for improper termination. This guy just asked me not to come in anymore, and that was it. I do think I was fired, but there is a huge asterisk, and I'm just wondering if this asterisk enables me not to mention it.

I think the best advice so far has been to call the school and see what my documents say. If it doesn't say in writing anywhere that I was fired, then I'm thinking it doesn't have to be disclosed.


Yes call the school and call your old employer, don't risk what many would interpret as a lie on your application.

Even if after you call everyone they tell you that you have to include the firing in you application I wouldn't be worried about it. Your main concern seems to be that getting fired will be a stain on your work ethic, but if you worked part time there for multiple years and your termination clearly coincides with your graduation I really don't think anyone who reads your application will look upon it too harshly.




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