Californian Law Schools Forum

[Danteshek]

Eesh. Id like to hope the rest of her application was sub par. If so, then it could mean that UCLA and USC care about more than just numbers..... .

Dream on

[MrAdams]

Eesh. Id like to hope the rest of her application was sub par. If so, then it could mean that UCLA and USC care about more than just numbers..... .

Dream on

/sarcasm

[uci2013]

Just FYI, the faculty and administration at UCI laughs hysterically every time someone mentions the word "risk." First, our incredible professors left tenured positions at top programs in order to join UCI. They wouldn't make such a move if they viewed it as a risk. Second, the program has received (and continues to receive) massive support from the Orange County community. At orientation every student met his/her respective mentor (a local attorney from the area), and the mentors assured us that the community's excitement over UCI is no exaggeration. The entire first year class landed jobs last summer (many of them were paid jobs, and many of the students had multiple jobs).

To add to the point on mentors, there are several mentors from the OC office of O'Melveney & Myers, including the head of the OC office who is mentoring one student. Jones Day also has employees acting as mentors.

I haven't really talked to the 2Ls about OCI so I guess knowing how OCI has gone would be useful information. If a 2L is on here maybe they can add to the conversation.

[Lagunitan]

.

[arhmcpo]

I agree with Duralex's take on Loyola, or at least the numbers needed there to have good employment prospects. Nice to see you not trolling so hard now that you've transfered Dante, though I do feel I owe my extensive knowledge of Southwestern to you ; I have friends at Loyola and UCI and I go to Pepperdine so figured I chime in.

In the current market if you want BIGLAW from Loyola or Pepperdine to get an interview you probably need to be top 15% and to have a decent shot at a callback you really need more like top 10%. Top 1/3rd to Top 1/2 have decent/varying shots at midlaw. FWIW, the 2L I know at UCI (he's part of the initial full ride class) says their Career Services constantly tells them they need to be in the Top 10% to have good BIGLAW prospects as well. He also says competition is extremely fierce because of how small the student body currently is + the tough economy. I think a safe bet is that UCI will become something like the UCD of Socal which is very respectable, but I think scholarship money and wanting to work in Orange County should be a very important consideration if your considering UCI.

Many people with LSAT's in the mid 160's will get waitlisted and ultimately dinged from UCLA and USC (and of course Boalt) this leaves you with an interesting dilemna. In response to someone's concern about not being from CA and being disadvantaged because of it, (again) in my experience, I found that being outside of CA actually helped applicants get into UCLA and USC - they want regional diversity and they tend to get way too many CA applicants. Even Pepperdine tends to have an entering class that is 50% CA and 50% non-CA, giving non-Californian's a leg-up as the school wants that geographic diversity and most other applicants will be from CA.

Now, with a mid 160's LSAT and assuming your GPA is strong or you went to an ivy; you will likely get into UCD and UCH with grant-scholarships. When I went through 2 years ago I think they gave something like 10 to 15k for an above median admit. They are state schools so it seems like they don't offer as much money; however, the grants didn't have any stipulations if I recall correctly which is a HUGE bonus. Hopefully they have increased merit based aid to keep up with their rapidly increasing tuition prices. Keep in mind that if you are not from CA, you will actually, tangibly be disadvantaged here as you will pay ridiculously high tuition your first year as an out-of-state student but you can get in-state status after 1L.

Now compare this w/ Loyola & Pepperdine. You will likely get big money, we're talking in the neighborhood of a full-ride, but there will almost certainly be stipulations attached to that money. Virtually all merit based scholarships from these 2 schools come with a Top 1/3rd requirement to renew the scholarship after your 1L and after your 2L. I would likely go with the school who offered you more money - though you could try playing them against each other. In my experience Loyola and Pepperdine offer admits VERY similar financial aid offers with similar stipulations, though since Pepperdine has a mission statement essay, they may offer you more money than Loyola if that essay acts as a strong writing sample for you. There's no disadvantage to being a non-californian applicant as tuition is the same, and as I said above I think you get an edge as you will add geographic diversity to the entering class.

So if you're not going to Standford/Boalt/UCLA/USC you're going to have to choose btw schools in vastly different areas of the state with vastly different scholarship packages. Think about what matters to you most: I focused on location and being debt-averse in my decision. The point is: really do your research, don't underestimate COL or what may happen if you lose your scholarship, and definitely visit each school you consider. Yes, job prospects are extremely important, but as far as I can tell there is no accurate employment data available from these schools besides the "gut factor" that UCLA kids will get better opportunities than Pepperdine/Loyola kids. I also think "alumni" size is overrated as well, all you need is 1 alumni willing to help you and that's infinitely superior than 100 disinterested alumni.

[Duralex]

I think arhmcpo is more or less right on. One qualification I might offer is that UCLA almost certainly would be better for anyone contemplating an academic career, even if its advantage in regular employment opportunity lacks foundation. My family members--and their milieu--seem to think LLS is as advantageous (or more) compared to UCLA for in town hiring out of school, but they are all UCLA grads and have visibly benefitted from its network over decades--by which I mean that there's more to a network than new-hiring alone. Maybe I'm being oversensitive but I think I detect a note of noblesse oblige in some of their praise. LLS has started to hire some of its own grads to teach, though, which is reassuring (not that I personally want to teach, but its nice to see some academic self-confidence in their faculty recruitment.)

Since Dante apparently isn't doing it anymore, let me also say that Southwestern is not to be discounted. I think it is fair to say that it offers qualitatively much better education and networking than most TSLers would impute to a school in its regional hierarchical position. In particular, the two year full time SCALE program (over 30 years old now) deserves a look by nontraditional students who want an education with an explicitly clinical focus (vs. the traditional law school model.)

[Danteshek]

Thanks Duralex. I am still available to answer questions about Southwestern. I had a great experience there. The only reason I transferred was because all the influential lawyers in my social circle told me it was a good move.

[1ferret!]

OP: In case you weren't aware, LLS is the largest law school in California (barely edging out Hastings). LLS has more alums practicing law in Southern California than any other school. This makes a difference when looking for jobs.

Oh stop trying to justify your transfer decision...
Yes, every barista in the valley is a Loyola alum n...

You're just mad because Ken Starr has left and taken most of Pep's lustre with him. Now you're back to being the weird conservofundie bootcamp with the gorgeous campus.

Glad you finally came to grips with your belief in Pepp's lustre.

[arhmcpo]

Dante - how would you compare your loyola classes/experience thus far to what you had a Southwestern??? As a transfer I think you have a pretty unique experience

[Danteshek]

Dante - how would you compare your loyola classes/experience thus far to what you had a Southwestern??? As a transfer I think you have a pretty unique experience

I have Laurie Levenson for evidence, so it doesn't get much better than that. She is fantastic. My Con Law 1 is with Karl Manheim and has only 30 students (mostly transfers). I really like Manheim so far. Business Association I have with Prof. Guttentag, a youngish YLS/HBS grad. So I'm very happy with my Professors at LLS.

Southwestern doesn't have as deep a bench of great Professors. This means that very often the top Profs are teaching 1Ls instead of upper division classes. For instance, Dean Dorff is a rockstar business law Prof, but he is teaching Contracts this year (instead of Securities Regulations, M&A or Business Associations, all of which are in his wheelhouse). In all I would say that Southwestern has 5-10 Professors who are liked universally. The problem occurs when you have to take a class with a Professor who isn't on that level.

[JJDancer]

I'm interested in comparing USC to a similarly ranked east coast school like GW. Does anyone know how these schools have placed in the past 2 years for biglaw. Meaning do top 25% at GW have a shot at biglaw and same for USC. (doesn't matter where the biglaw is -- meaning LA or NYC or DC/wherever)

I'm just curious...Thanks.

[WonkyPanda]

How does Davis fair against Hastings when it comes to job placement in the north? I know that Davis is better ranked, but it seems to me that Hastings has a far deeper alumni network.

[General Tso]

How does Davis fair against Hastings when it comes to job placement in the north? I know that Davis is better ranked, but it seems to me that Hastings has a far deeper alumni network.

98% placement dood!

Seriously though...they are roughly the same. I believe Hastings had a stronger OCI attendance than Davis, but as far as I can tell there aren't many callbacks at either school. Davis places more of its grads in Sacramento, Hastings in the Bay Area. Both send about 30% to SoCal and 10% out of state. So slight regional differences.

[Xnegd]

I got a fee waiver for USD so I'm applying there. I'll apply to Loyola & Peperdine if I get a waiver.

[General Tso]

I got a fee waiver for USD so I'm applying there. I'll apply to Loyola & Peperdine if I get a waiver.

ask them for one. Loyola didn't give me one until I asked. I highly recommend the SoCal T2s, but only for their generous $$.

[uci2013]

Anyways, UCI requires 3 LOR's. I didn't bother my 3rd writer that much so he hasn't sent it in yet. He may never send it. If he doesn't, I'm just going to send my app to UCI with 2 LOR's and see what happens.

FYI - Dean C does an informal "Coffee With the Dean" every couple of weeks. 2 weeks ago someone mentioned the issue some people were having rounding up 3 LORs and it's been changed to a 2 LOR requirement to match what most schools require. I verified that it has been changed on the Admissions page and it has. So if 3 LORs is all that is stopping you from applying to UCI Law, that barrier is gone.

Seriously, this is an awesome school if you want your voice to be heard at the school. They go out of their way to try and make changes that students want, and we are here already, so it isn't a marketing ploy to sell us on the school - we've committed ourselves to being here for better or for worse.

And for those of you that are interested in pro bono work, 1Ls are getting to do pro bono work already . Even if you have an interest in corporate law, the school does encourage you to give back to the community, and it's great to be able to do something useful as a 1L instead of only doing coursework.

[Knock]

Anyways, UCI requires 3 LOR's. I didn't bother my 3rd writer that much so he hasn't sent it in yet. He may never send it. If he doesn't, I'm just going to send my app to UCI with 2 LOR's and see what happens.

FYI - Dean C does an informal "Coffee With the Dean" every couple of weeks. 2 weeks ago someone mentioned the issue some people were having rounding up 3 LORs and it's been changed to a 2 LOR requirement to match what most schools require. I verified that it has been changed on the Admissions page and it has. So if 3 LORs is all that is stopping you from applying to UCI Law, that barrier is gone.

Seriously, this is an awesome school if you want your voice to be heard at the school. They go out of their way to try and make changes that students want, and we are here already, so it isn't a marketing ploy to sell us on the school - we've committed ourselves to being here for better or for worse.

And for those of you that are interested in pro bono work, 1Ls are getting to do pro bono work already . Even if you have an interest in corporate law, the school does encourage you to give back to the community, and it's great to be able to do something useful as a 1L instead of only doing coursework.

I will now be applying to UCI. Thanks for confirming the LOR decrease .

[Pleasye]

Anyways, UCI requires 3 LOR's. I didn't bother my 3rd writer that much so he hasn't sent it in yet. He may never send it. If he doesn't, I'm just going to send my app to UCI with 2 LOR's and see what happens.

FYI - Dean C does an informal "Coffee With the Dean" every couple of weeks. 2 weeks ago someone mentioned the issue some people were having rounding up 3 LORs and it's been changed to a 2 LOR requirement to match what most schools require. I verified that it has been changed on the Admissions page and it has. So if 3 LORs is all that is stopping you from applying to UCI Law, that barrier is gone.

Seriously, this is an awesome school if you want your voice to be heard at the school. They go out of their way to try and make changes that students want, and we are here already, so it isn't a marketing ploy to sell us on the school - we've committed ourselves to being here for better or for worse.

And for those of you that are interested in pro bono work, 1Ls are getting to do pro bono work already . Even if you have an interest in corporate law, the school does encourage you to give back to the community, and it's great to be able to do something useful as a 1L instead of only doing coursework.

I will now be applying to UCI. Thanks for confirming the LOR decrease .

Me too me too woooo.

[bk1]

Anyways, UCI requires 3 LOR's. I didn't bother my 3rd writer that much so he hasn't sent it in yet. He may never send it. If he doesn't, I'm just going to send my app to UCI with 2 LOR's and see what happens.

FYI - Dean C does an informal "Coffee With the Dean" every couple of weeks. 2 weeks ago someone mentioned the issue some people were having rounding up 3 LORs and it's been changed to a 2 LOR requirement to match what most schools require. I verified that it has been changed on the Admissions page and it has. So if 3 LORs is all that is stopping you from applying to UCI Law, that barrier is gone.

Seriously, this is an awesome school if you want your voice to be heard at the school. They go out of their way to try and make changes that students want, and we are here already, so it isn't a marketing ploy to sell us on the school - we've committed ourselves to being here for better or for worse.

And for those of you that are interested in pro bono work, 1Ls are getting to do pro bono work already . Even if you have an interest in corporate law, the school does encourage you to give back to the community, and it's great to be able to do something useful as a 1L instead of only doing coursework.

Excellent, now I don't have to pester my LOR writer so I can apply.