Chances after academic dismissal

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listerine
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Chances after academic dismissal

Postby listerine » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:18 pm

I was academically dismissed from law school. I, however, do want to attend law school again. Does anyone have any advice or experiences that relate?

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gdane
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby gdane » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:27 pm

Are you serious? I'm not normally an asshole on here, but if you cant scroll down three threads on this forum...

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=127463

However, since this is your one and only post, its entirely possible that youre the same retard that asked the first question.

GoBroncos22!
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby GoBroncos22! » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:40 pm

Id be curious to know why anyone who was academically dismissed from law school (with out reasons like a death, or serious sickness...and maybe you did) would want to try again. In no way do I expect this to happen to me but if it did, I think I would call it game over

listerine
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby listerine » Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:54 pm

wow. as if i didn't feel crappy enough. thanks for all your help. oh and btw it can easily happen to you, bud. trust me. i don't know what school you go to, but some schools have attrition rates as high as 30%. John Marshal, for example.

imacpa
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby imacpa » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:13 pm

listerine wrote:I was academically dismissed from law school. I, however, do want to attend law school again. Does anyone have any advice or experiences that relate?


Listerine, I want to be the first to say that I am deeply sorry for what happened to you. I can personally relate because it happened to me many years ago when I first attended law school. I managed to get back in last year (and successfully finished my 1L year) but it wasn't easy. From my experience a lot of schools are quite as forgiving when you suffer an academic dismissal. Some schools may not even consider you if you have an academic dismissal on your record.

I managed to obtain a Master's and accomplished a lot based on my work experience. I can't say what it was that persuaded the law school that I attended to allow me in. But I had to go through a special interview process and speak directly on what led to my dismissal and share what I learned and what I plan to do to avoid the problems that led to it. What I will say in your case is to be direct and honest. Take responsibility for what led to your dismissal.

Yes, I do admit that some law schools have harsh grading curves. My previous law school was known at the time to dismiss between 30% - 40%. This doesn't matter as far as the admission officer is concern. Don't make excuses! If you had problems with time management or exammanship, then just be real and honest. The key thing is to show evidence of rehabilitation. In other words, what are you doing to prevent a future academic dismissal from happening if you were to get admitted again.

Finally, you will have to wait two years before marticulating back into law school after an academic dismissal per ABA.
Last edited by imacpa on Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

imacpa
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby imacpa » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:18 pm

GoBroncos22! wrote:Id be curious to know why anyone who was academically dismissed from law school (with out reasons like a death, or serious sickness...and maybe you did) would want to try again. In no way do I expect this to happen to me but if it did, I think I would call it game over


Bronco, I actually let the dream of law school go after I was dismissed. But the dream never went away and I waited many years before I decided to try it again.

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mountaintime
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby mountaintime » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:32 pm

I know someone who was academically dismissed from a LS at the end of the first semester, then started at a different LS the following fall. Unfortunately, I don't know the details of their application and acceptance to the second school.

listerine
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby listerine » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:22 pm

imacpa,

Thanks for you response. It makes me feel better to know someone has recovered. I have been trying to figure out why I did so poorly. The first semester I did fine. The second semester I bombed. I didn't do anything differently. Only thing I can guess is that quite a few people were dismissed after their first semester so maybe once they were gone the curve got tougher. I really don't know.

What schools do you know of that are forgiving? Most I have so far researched don't mention anything about admission for "the dismissed". Suffok specifically says they will not consider anyone who has been dismissed from another law school. Memphis, on the other hand, has an entire process for dismissed "start over" students. If you could give me some info on the school you know of that are accepting of dismissed students I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance and congrats and good luck.

03121202698008
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby 03121202698008 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:28 pm

You should seriously re-evaluate if you have what it takes. You first LSAT and go around obviously aren't that impressive. If admitted to another school, you'll be taking on a ton of debt and explaining your previous LS experience is going to kill any job interviews you manage to get. Contrary to what Disney says, having the drive/desire isn't always enough. Maybe work as a paralegal for a few years and then decide?

listerine
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby listerine » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:35 pm

Why would you think my LSAT was poor? Assumption? Fact is, one bad semester triggered all this. That's hardly an accurate gauge.

03121202698008
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby 03121202698008 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:37 pm

listerine wrote:Why would you think my LSAT was poor? Assumption? Fact is, one bad semester triggered all this. That's hardly an accurate gauge.


You said they failed out a bunch of people. That's indicative of a lower T4 with low admission standards. Not many schools fail out people in LS. Attrition =/= failing out. Cooley being the most notorious. Also, one bad semester in 1L = half the core classes. That's a huge percentage of the legal info that you failed to grasp.

listerine
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby listerine » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:47 pm

Dooley noted. I'm a dumbass. Got it. Thanks.

03121202698008
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby 03121202698008 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:49 pm

listerine wrote:Dooley noted. I'm a dumbass. Got it. Thanks.


I'm not necessarily saying your dumb...or they you aren't cut out to be a lawyer. I'm just saying, take some time and think about it. Especially if you can't identify why you did poorly. If you can't ID it, how can you fix it. Last thing you want is another year of LS debt and to be dismissed again.

GoBroncos22!
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby GoBroncos22! » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:15 pm

You misinterpereted my statement; I would quit after one time-but your not me. I apologize if I came off as a smart ass. Perhaps you have a much much stronger will than me and have what it takes to succeed the second time around; I know I wouldnt. By all means, go for it. And yes, im not even in law school yet but I will be soon enough. so ya, I dont know what its like. Just give it some thought is all im saying. Good luck

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rayiner
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby rayiner » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:18 pm

listerine wrote:Dooley noted. I'm a dumbass. Got it. Thanks.


Wat is a dooley.

03121202698008
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby 03121202698008 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:19 pm

rayiner wrote:
listerine wrote:Dooley noted. I'm a dumbass. Got it. Thanks.


Wat is a dooley.


I didn't have the heart to point this out...

listerine
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby listerine » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:02 pm

Was I trying to be funny? Or just stupid? Or both? :D

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rayiner
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby rayiner » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:12 pm

Nobody is saying you're stupid. The underlying issue is one of whether you can hack it at law school. Lot's of "smart" people can't, and lot's of people who aren't really that smart do fine. It's about whether your skills are aligned with what law school requires.

There are a series of screening mechanisms that are designed to see if you can pass the bar exam. The LSAT is the first, and cheapest one. For only $120, it does a really damn good job of screening out people who probably won't pass the bar. However, there is a cottage industry of schools, like the one you went to, who make $$$ on people with marginal LSAT scores. These schools couldn't maintain decent bar passage rates if everyone in their class took the bar, so they create a second filter: for $20-30k, they screen out the third of their class that probably won't pass the bar by failing them out. Even after ~$80k+, a lot of the people that are left and graduate from these schools still won't pass the bar. If you do make it back into a law school after being academically dismissed, and do make it through 1L this time, there is a great chance you'll be one of those people.

After two failures (on the LSAT, then during 1L) it's probably time to give up on the law school thing. Realize that schools aren't scheming against you. They have *every* incentive to let in everyone who applies, and to string along the bottom of their class as long as they pay tuition. They don't, because the ABA won't let them get away with 30% bar passage rates. The fact is that a school that makes it's money off marginal candidates decided to forgo $20k+/year of income because they thought you'd fail the bar. That's reality telling you to go do something you're good at instead of throwing more time/money at something you're not.

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acrossthelake
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby acrossthelake » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:21 pm

rayiner wrote:Nobody is saying you're stupid. The underlying issue is one of whether you can hack it at law school. Lot's of "smart" people can't, and lot's of people who aren't really that smart do fine. It's about whether your skills are aligned with what law school requires.

There are a series of screening mechanisms that are designed to see if you can pass the bar exam. The LSAT is the first, and cheapest one. For only $120, it does a really damn good job of screening out people who probably won't pass the bar. However, there is a cottage industry of schools, like the one you went to, who make $$$ on people with marginal LSAT scores. These schools couldn't maintain decent bar passage rates if everyone in their class took the bar, so they create a second filter: for $20-30k, they screen out the third of their class that probably won't pass the bar by failing them out. Even after ~$80k+, a lot of the people that are left and graduate from these schools still won't pass the bar. If you do make it back into a law school after being academically dismissed, and do make it through 1L this time, there is a great chance you'll be one of those people.

After two failures (on the LSAT, then during 1L) it's probably time to give up on the law school thing. Realize that schools aren't scheming against you. They have *every* incentive to let in everyone who applies, and to string along the bottom of their class as long as they pay tuition. They don't, because the ABA won't let them get away with 30% bar passage rates. The fact is that a school that makes it's money off marginal candidates decided to forgo $20k+/year of income because they thought you'd fail the bar. That's reality telling you to go do something you're good at instead of throwing more time/money at something you're not.


+1

If there was something seriously difficult going on in your life during that point in time---like death in family or illness or hell maybe a break up if you're super emotional---then I can see how failing out the first semester isn't a reason to give up. However, if you don't have an excuse to point towards---"I was a lazy ass and didn't even read the casebook" or "I blacked out during the final exam" etc.--that's a bad sign. You're going to have to convince law schools that you can hack it the second time around and they're going to be looking for a believable explanation.

imacpa
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby imacpa » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:30 pm

You're welcome, List. There is hope for those few who failed the first time! Don't let others doubt you because only you know what you're capable of. But I would advise you to take a deep look and figure out what the real problem was that led to your dismissal (harsh grading curve aside).

Which schools are most forgiving? I applied to a number of schools (most of them mid to lower tier schools) and a lot of them were receptive although I still got rejected by a large number of schools. But if you can achieve a good LSAT then that will make the process easier. However, don't expect certain schools within the top 30 to give you a chance. I know UC Davis told me they don't look at previously dismissed students. I would try to target schools that are within or below your recent LSAT. I believe you tested at 160 so that's a very solid score.

Each school is going to vary on their admission policy so the best thing is to call each law school that you would consider. Most of them are receptive to giving someone a second chance but you will have to wait two years before they can look at you.



listerine wrote:imacpa,

Thanks for you response. It makes me feel better to know someone has recovered. I have been trying to figure out why I did so poorly. The first semester I did fine. The second semester I bombed. I didn't do anything differently. Only thing I can guess is that quite a few people were dismissed after their first semester so maybe once they were gone the curve got tougher. I really don't know.

What schools do you know of that are forgiving? Most I have so far researched don't mention anything about admission for "the dismissed". Suffok specifically says they will not consider anyone who has been dismissed from another law school. Memphis, on the other hand, has an entire process for dismissed "start over" students. If you could give me some info on the school you know of that are accepting of dismissed students I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance and congrats and good luck.

imacpa
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby imacpa » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:33 pm

Lake, you are absolute correct on your comments below. Most schools are hesitate to offer someone a second chance unless they have some assurance that the applicant can prove to them that they can do better the next time.

acrossthelake wrote:
rayiner wrote:Nobody is saying you're stupid. The underlying issue is one of whether you can hack it at law school. Lot's of "smart" people can't, and lot's of people who aren't really that smart do fine. It's about whether your skills are aligned with what law school requires.

There are a series of screening mechanisms that are designed to see if you can pass the bar exam. The LSAT is the first, and cheapest one. For only $120, it does a really damn good job of screening out people who probably won't pass the bar. However, there is a cottage industry of schools, like the one you went to, who make $$$ on people with marginal LSAT scores. These schools couldn't maintain decent bar passage rates if everyone in their class took the bar, so they create a second filter: for $20-30k, they screen out the third of their class that probably won't pass the bar by failing them out. Even after ~$80k+, a lot of the people that are left and graduate from these schools still won't pass the bar. If you do make it back into a law school after being academically dismissed, and do make it through 1L this time, there is a great chance you'll be one of those people.

After two failures (on the LSAT, then during 1L) it's probably time to give up on the law school thing. Realize that schools aren't scheming against you. They have *every* incentive to let in everyone who applies, and to string along the bottom of their class as long as they pay tuition. They don't, because the ABA won't let them get away with 30% bar passage rates. The fact is that a school that makes it's money off marginal candidates decided to forgo $20k+/year of income because they thought you'd fail the bar. That's reality telling you to go do something you're good at instead of throwing more time/money at something you're not.


+1

If there was something seriously difficult going on in your life during that point in time---like death in family or illness or hell maybe a break up if you're super emotional---then I can see how failing out the first semester isn't a reason to give up. However, if you don't have an excuse to point towards---"I was a lazy ass and didn't even read the casebook" or "I blacked out during the final exam" etc.--that's a bad sign. You're going to have to convince law schools that you can hack it the second time around and they're going to be looking for a believable explanation.

whymeohgodno
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby whymeohgodno » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:41 pm

listerine wrote:imacpa,

Thanks for you response. It makes me feel better to know someone has recovered. I have been trying to figure out why I did so poorly. The first semester I did fine. The second semester I bombed. I didn't do anything differently. Only thing I can guess is that quite a few people were dismissed after their first semester so maybe once they were gone the curve got tougher. I really don't know.

What schools do you know of that are forgiving? Most I have so far researched don't mention anything about admission for "the dismissed". Suffok specifically says they will not consider anyone who has been dismissed from another law school. Memphis, on the other hand, has an entire process for dismissed "start over" students. If you could give me some info on the school you know of that are accepting of dismissed students I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance and congrats and good luck.


If you haven't figured out why you failed in the first place, I really don't think it would be a good idea to take another go at law school.

At least figure out what went wrong.

shoop
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby shoop » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:01 pm

listerine wrote:wow. as if i didn't feel crappy enough. thanks for all your help. oh and btw it can easily happen to you, bud. trust me. i don't know what school you go to, but some schools have attrition rates as high as 30%. John Marshal, for example.


I don't mean to make you feel crappy, but if you're one of the folks that flunked out of a TTTT (and I know there are a LOT of y'all... that's the M.O. at places like JM and Cooley) you should maybe be focusing on what else you could do with your life instead of how to get back into the sorts of schools that automatically dump the bottom third of their 1L class and where no one but MAYBE the top 5-10% of the class really has a chance at ever digging out from under their law school debt. I know the mere existence of some of these 4th-tier schools seems to suggest that a legal education can/should be an option for everyone, but it's not necessarily always the WISE option.

As others have said, you should at the very least figure out what went wrong your first go-around, and have a really solid list of how you and your circumstances have changed and why you'll be a success this time.

listerine
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby listerine » Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:55 pm

It's possible you're not giving enough credit. Everyone is quick to judge, I was. I even thought things like: "wow that dumbass just failed out, he can't hack it. I'm way smarter." Same attitude as I'm getting from some people on this post. There is no way I thought this could happen to me. I was an up and comer after my first semester and then boom, suddenly I'm a loser. You never think it can happen to you.

My point is: before you think this is an end all example of why I can't cut it, remember not too long ago I was just like you. In a way I guess it is good this happened because it gives me a clearer picture of what can go wrong and makes me aware that I am not immune to misfortune, even of my own doing. I'll stop before I vent anymore. I really just want this topic to raise on the list so I can get some more insight from others of "the dismissed". See ya.

Texas2010
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Re: Chances after academic dismissal

Postby Texas2010 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:20 am

I failed out. Throughout my life I was always awful at taking tests, I could walk in knowing everything, bomb the exam, and as soon as I walked out Id remember everything. I was diagnosed with ADD shortly after graduating high school and when i started treating it my grades immediately improved, especially my test grades. I had been so successful in school for so long ( I worked full time and went to night school so undergrad took me 7 years) that I decided to stop taking the medication for my last undergrad year to see how I could do, I hoped that I had either learned some better techniques or otherwise improved my test taking and perhaps I could kick my ADD (yes i realize how stupid that sounds now) I had already been accepted to law school. My grades dropped but I graduated. I realized that since I had already been accepted to law school, my motivation that last semester had plummeted yet I still graduated, so I believed if I tried harder my grades would improve even though they were already adequate. This encouraged me to begin law school without my medicine. I figured if I struggled the first couple of weeks Id just start taking it again.

The real problem was that in law school its all about the one exam at the end of the year. During the year, I read 7 hours each day and I was always prepared in class when called upon. Many students couldnt hack it and were told to leave class, some were given absences, some even had their grade docked on the spot for not being able to discuss the day's cases knowledgeably. But I was always on point, I was called on often and I was never corrected or told I was wrong, I fully understood all of the concepts. Then exams came the first semester, I ended up with mostly C's but I wasnt in any academic trouble. Unfortunately, since I made it through that semester I believed I could make it through the second semester, and we all know "it gets easier after the first year" (i wouldnt know). That second smester I made an F and dropped below a 2.0. I would need a 2.3 the next semester to bring my GPA back to a 2.0, a 2.3 isnt even a C+, and I knew that with my medicine it would be simple. But they didnt believe me and I got the boot.

The point is that, getting kicked out of law school doesnt mean you cant do it, and it doesnt mean you should do something else for a while to see if you really want to go back. You were there for a year, you know better now than you ever will whether or not you want to go back. I get so irritated when people ask me "well are you sure this is what you want to do?" Applying to law school is a huge deal, you know you want to go to law school then, and you definitely know after one month, let alone a full year. If you failed out and are wondering how to get back in, you want to get back in, period. So go find one of your professors who will lobby for you and say that they believe you have what it takes, any professor who will say you were attentive in class and grasped the material. If you cant do that gather as many letters of recommendation that you can, which you need to do either way (go for quality AND quantity) and write an addendum to your original personal statement. The Assistant Dean at my school told me not to bother getting some job in the legal field, she said "sometimes" she recommends some graduate work (but of course most grad schools want at least a 3.0 in undergrad and all other graduate work which, obviously is probably not going to work out). The faculty member I was directed to told me that my 3.2 and 158 show I am capable, theres no point in taking the LSAT again or taking more classes to raise my grades. she told me to just get a stable job (full or part-time) and start reading to keep up the habits needed for law school. She said in my new application mention the books I've been reading and how I've been keeping up with current events. It seems simple, maybe even silly but it shows you have been focused on getting back in and have been preparing as best you can. This is just what the lady I spoke to told me, Id love for others to share what they were told, it all helps.

It sucks for us because, regardless of circumstance, we "failed out of law school" so we cant avoid that negative connotation. Joe Biden was nearly last in his law school class, and he failed a class for plagiarism, yet he's the Vice President. Resolve to get back in, swallow your pride and start writing your addendum now so you can edit, edit, and edit it to make it as short as possible while maintaining its impact. It sucks, but if you dont do everything you can to get back in, your going to wonder about and regret it for the rest of your life.




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