Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

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sumus romani
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby sumus romani » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:44 pm

NoGoodDeed wrote:The logic was so flawed that I must admit I had some fun making statements like "You're not offering potential law schools an accurate picture of the full body of my academic work" and "This has never come up before?" Response: No one has argued it before. My response " So your telling me there could be countless victims of an incorrect GPA?" :)

Finally, I asked her to put this all in writing - because the logic seemed so flawed that I wanted to send her letter as my addendum. She got flustered and asked what she thought I should write? She responded, "I can't give you advice." I said, ok , let me re-phrase that - you just suggested I write an addendum so could you further your suggestion by telling me, since you are under the employ of the law schools themselves, what points I need to ensure to make in my addendum? Flustered again.

But, overall.....I was pissed. I mean - if you dont want me, dont accept me. I'm cool with that but I don't want to get dinged without them seeing the full body of my work. :(

My bad CG614 - LSAC - NOT LSAT (which I have been studying for 4 months so cut me some slack ) :)


I hate to say it, but it isn't so much an issue about schools not seeing your full body of work. Again, the addendum will address this. Rather, the problem is that schools are under extreme pressure to get the highest median undergrad gpa as determined by LSAC. So this really will count against you slightly in the admissions cycle. I don't mean to make you feel more angry and resentful. Channel it into LSAT prep!

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TommyK
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby TommyK » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:48 pm

Knockglock wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:I think you're overvaluing the difference between a 3.011 and a 2.93. Don't think it's going to make much a difference, TBQH.


While in many cases I agree, some schools have a hard floor at 3.0.


Is this true or just rumor? Have admission departments actually said this? I find it hard to believe that he could get into a school with a 3.01, but not a 2.93 if he did well on his LSAT.

I don't see how 2.93 and 3.01 would be that much of a difference either. You're talking about a difference of far less than a single point on the LSAT.

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Unitas
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby Unitas » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:49 pm

TommyK wrote:
Knockglock wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:I think you're overvaluing the difference between a 3.011 and a 2.93. Don't think it's going to make much a difference, TBQH.


While in many cases I agree, some schools have a hard floor at 3.0.


Is this true or just rumor? Have admission departments actually said this? I find it hard to believe that he could get into a school with a 3.01, but not a 2.93 if he did well on his LSAT.

I don't see how 2.93 and 3.01 would be that much of a difference either. You're talking about a difference of far less than a single point on the LSAT.


Look on LSN and you can see clear cutoff lines.
Last edited by Unitas on Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrKappus
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby MrKappus » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:49 pm

Honestly, OP...the woman on the phone was probably telling you the truth about this never being an issue. 10 schools for UG is ridiculous.

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Knock
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby Knock » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:52 pm

Unitas wrote:
TommyK wrote:
Knockglock wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:I think you're overvaluing the difference between a 3.011 and a 2.93. Don't think it's going to make much a difference, TBQH.


While in many cases I agree, some schools have a hard floor at 3.0.


Is this true or just rumor? Have admission departments actually said this? I find it hard to believe that he could get into a school with a 3.01, but not a 2.93 if he did well on his LSAT.

I don't see how 2.93 and 3.01 would be that much of a difference either. You're talking about a difference of far less than a single point on the LSAT.


Look on LSN and you can see clear cutoff lines.


Yeah. I don't know if any schools or adcomms have confirmed this, but there is lots of stuff that they haven't confirmed that we've come to accept. Checking LSN you can see some clear cuttoffs, I can't think of any for a 3.0 GPA off of the top of my head, but in the past I have clearly seen some GPA and LSAT cutoffs. I'm not saying they don't make exceptions, such as if you have amazing softs or a great LSAT, but for the majority of people with numbers below the floor they probably just glance at the application and then toss it :lol:.

NoGoodDeed
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby NoGoodDeed » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:55 pm

Why would you say that? Have you inquired any further as to why I attended so many schools? Don't be to quick to judge those around you - its been my experience that pushes many people away -or- gets you bitch slapped - or- both.

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TommyK
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby TommyK » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:04 pm

Knockglock wrote:
Yeah. I don't know if any schools or adcomms have confirmed this, but there is lots of stuff that they haven't confirmed that we've come to accept. Checking LSN you can see some clear cuttoffs, I can't think of any for a 3.0 GPA off of the top of my head, but in the past I have clearly seen some GPA and LSAT cutoffs. I'm not saying they don't make exceptions, such as if you have amazing softs or a great LSAT, but for the majority of people with numbers below the floor they probably just glance at the application and then toss it :lol:.


I'm disinclined to automatically assume this is true. I haven't seen evidence of a cut-off that exists between 2.99 and 3.01. I'm open to the possibility, but I'm very skeptical that this happens.

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MrKappus
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby MrKappus » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:06 pm

NoGoodDeed wrote:Why would you say that? Have you inquired any further as to why I attended so many schools? Don't be to quick to judge those around you - its been my experience that pushes many people away -or- gets you bitch slapped - or- both.


Fair enough: why did you average less than one semester per school? On a side note, I'm really surprised LSAC wouldn't accommodate you. You sound like a great guy.

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TommyK
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby TommyK » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:07 pm

NoGoodDeed wrote:Why would you say that? Have you inquired any further as to why I attended so many schools? Don't be to quick to judge those around you - its been my experience that pushes many people away -or- gets you bitch slapped - or- both.


Eh, in his defense, I can't imagine a non-ridiculous scenario that would require somebody to attend 10 UG institutions. Also, I doubt that he was trying to make friends, and how exactly would one bitch slap somebody through an Internet forum? I'm sure he feels bad about offending your delicate sensibilities :roll:

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Unitas
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby Unitas » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:10 pm

TommyK wrote:
Knockglock wrote:
Yeah. I don't know if any schools or adcomms have confirmed this, but there is lots of stuff that they haven't confirmed that we've come to accept. Checking LSN you can see some clear cuttoffs, I can't think of any for a 3.0 GPA off of the top of my head, but in the past I have clearly seen some GPA and LSAT cutoffs. I'm not saying they don't make exceptions, such as if you have amazing softs or a great LSAT, but for the majority of people with numbers below the floor they probably just glance at the application and then toss it :lol:.


I'm disinclined to automatically assume this is true. I haven't seen evidence of a cut-off that exists between 2.99 and 3.01. I'm open to the possibility, but I'm very skeptical that this happens.


A 3.01 is a B and a 2.99 is a C. The cut-off occurs somewhere and this is a logical place for it to occur. I am not 100% sure that schools use it, but look through LSN and you'll see a lot of schools have different cutoffs. Without an LSAT score no reason to look which schools have what cut-offs.

A lot of employers do it too. They require a B average and this student has a 2.99 and won't get an interview, but a 3.00 will.

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MrKappus
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby MrKappus » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:11 pm

TommyK wrote:
NoGoodDeed wrote:Why would you say that? Have you inquired any further as to why I attended so many schools? Don't be to quick to judge those around you - its been my experience that pushes many people away -or- gets you bitch slapped - or- both.


Eh, in his defense, I can't imagine a non-ridiculous scenario that would require somebody to attend 10 UG institutions. Also, I doubt that he was trying to make friends, and how exactly would one bitch slap somebody through an Internet forum? I'm sure he feels bad about offending your delicate sensibilities :roll:


Thank you. Jesus. I didn't even attack the guy. He just seemed blown away by the notion that the law school applicant pool wasn't filled with people who have 9+ UG schools that need to be summarized by LSAC, and I highly doubt that LSAC confronts this situation that often.

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Knock
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby Knock » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:13 pm

TommyK wrote:
Knockglock wrote:
Yeah. I don't know if any schools or adcomms have confirmed this, but there is lots of stuff that they haven't confirmed that we've come to accept. Checking LSN you can see some clear cuttoffs, I can't think of any for a 3.0 GPA off of the top of my head, but in the past I have clearly seen some GPA and LSAT cutoffs. I'm not saying they don't make exceptions, such as if you have amazing softs or a great LSAT, but for the majority of people with numbers below the floor they probably just glance at the application and then toss it :lol:.


I'm disinclined to automatically assume this is true. I haven't seen evidence of a cut-off that exists between 2.99 and 3.01. I'm open to the possibility, but I'm very skeptical that this happens.


While perhaps on an individual level 2.99 and 3.01 won't make a difference, and i'm sure that it isn't a completely hard and fast rule, there is definitely evidence of cutoffs. While i'm sure some people may be admitted below the floor, the schools try and get the majority of their class about it. Perhaps I shouldn't have called it a "hard" floor; maybe "soft" would have been more appropriate. The only one I can remember on the top of my head is Emory and it's a LSAT cutoff, so definitely not analogous: http://emory.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats. I'll see if I can find a clear GPA one.

Obviously a lot different from a 3.0 floor but look at Harvard's 3.8 GPA soft floor: http://harvard.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats. If you look at 3.8 GPA and 175 it looks like they accepted someone with those stats, but rejected several people at 3.7X and 175.

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TommyK
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby TommyK » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:28 pm

Unitas wrote:
TommyK wrote:
Knockglock wrote:
Yeah. I don't know if any schools or adcomms have confirmed this, but there is lots of stuff that they haven't confirmed that we've come to accept. Checking LSN you can see some clear cuttoffs, I can't think of any for a 3.0 GPA off of the top of my head, but in the past I have clearly seen some GPA and LSAT cutoffs. I'm not saying they don't make exceptions, such as if you have amazing softs or a great LSAT, but for the majority of people with numbers below the floor they probably just glance at the application and then toss it :lol:.


I'm disinclined to automatically assume this is true. I haven't seen evidence of a cut-off that exists between 2.99 and 3.01. I'm open to the possibility, but I'm very skeptical that this happens.


A 3.01 is a B and a 2.99 is a C. The cut-off occurs somewhere and this is a logical place for it to occur. I am not 100% sure that schools use it, but look through LSN and you'll see a lot of schools have different cutoffs. Without an LSAT score no reason to look which schools have what cut-offs.

A lot of employers do it too. They require a B average and this student has a 2.99 and won't get an interview, but a 3.00 will.


I hear what you're saying. Employers do do that (heh, i said do do), but we're comparing two dissimilar things here. I'm just not convinced that there is a cut-off. My impression is that most schools plug numbers into an equation like (multiplier*GPA + LSAT_SCALED_SCORE) = CANDIDATE_NUMBER. The CANDIDATE_NUMBER would be used to evaluate candidate to candidate to make fair determinations on each.

So I could imagine there being a cut-off for the CANDIDATE_NUMBER, but I guess I am just not convinced there's such a PASS/FAIL line on a difference of .01 of gpa.

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Unitas
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby Unitas » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:31 pm

TommyK wrote:
Unitas wrote:
TommyK wrote:
Knockglock wrote:
Yeah. I don't know if any schools or adcomms have confirmed this, but there is lots of stuff that they haven't confirmed that we've come to accept. Checking LSN you can see some clear cuttoffs, I can't think of any for a 3.0 GPA off of the top of my head, but in the past I have clearly seen some GPA and LSAT cutoffs. I'm not saying they don't make exceptions, such as if you have amazing softs or a great LSAT, but for the majority of people with numbers below the floor they probably just glance at the application and then toss it :lol:.


I'm disinclined to automatically assume this is true. I haven't seen evidence of a cut-off that exists between 2.99 and 3.01. I'm open to the possibility, but I'm very skeptical that this happens.


A 3.01 is a B and a 2.99 is a C. The cut-off occurs somewhere and this is a logical place for it to occur. I am not 100% sure that schools use it, but look through LSN and you'll see a lot of schools have different cutoffs. Without an LSAT score no reason to look which schools have what cut-offs.

A lot of employers do it too. They require a B average and this student has a 2.99 and won't get an interview, but a 3.00 will.


I hear what you're saying. Employers do do that (heh, i said do do), but we're comparing two dissimilar things here. I'm just not convinced that there is a cut-off. My impression is that most schools plug numbers into an equation like (multiplier*GPA + LSAT_SCALED_SCORE) = CANDIDATE_NUMBER. The CANDIDATE_NUMBER would be used to evaluate candidate to candidate to make fair determinations on each.

So I could imagine there being a cut-off for the CANDIDATE_NUMBER, but I guess I am just not convinced there's such a PASS/FAIL line on a difference of .01 of gpa.



It is called an index number and a lot of schools tell you how they figure it out. But a school still answers (for lack of a better term) to US News and the categories are distinct for rankings. The point I think we are all making though is that a 3.0 is better than a 2.9 and if you earned a 3.0 you deserve it.

NoGoodDeed
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby NoGoodDeed » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:33 pm

Amen. Unitas.

czelede
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby czelede » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:37 pm

TommyK wrote:
Unitas wrote:
TommyK wrote:
Knockglock wrote:
Yeah. I don't know if any schools or adcomms have confirmed this, but there is lots of stuff that they haven't confirmed that we've come to accept. Checking LSN you can see some clear cuttoffs, I can't think of any for a 3.0 GPA off of the top of my head, but in the past I have clearly seen some GPA and LSAT cutoffs. I'm not saying they don't make exceptions, such as if you have amazing softs or a great LSAT, but for the majority of people with numbers below the floor they probably just glance at the application and then toss it :lol:.


I'm disinclined to automatically assume this is true. I haven't seen evidence of a cut-off that exists between 2.99 and 3.01. I'm open to the possibility, but I'm very skeptical that this happens.


A 3.01 is a B and a 2.99 is a C. The cut-off occurs somewhere and this is a logical place for it to occur. I am not 100% sure that schools use it, but look through LSN and you'll see a lot of schools have different cutoffs. Without an LSAT score no reason to look which schools have what cut-offs.

A lot of employers do it too. They require a B average and this student has a 2.99 and won't get an interview, but a 3.00 will.


I hear what you're saying. Employers do do that (heh, i said do do), but we're comparing two dissimilar things here. I'm just not convinced that there is a cut-off. My impression is that most schools plug numbers into an equation like (multiplier*GPA + LSAT_SCALED_SCORE) = CANDIDATE_NUMBER. The CANDIDATE_NUMBER would be used to evaluate candidate to candidate to make fair determinations on each.

So I could imagine there being a cut-off for the CANDIDATE_NUMBER, but I guess I am just not convinced there's such a PASS/FAIL line on a difference of .01 of gpa.


I think it's reasonable to believe that a poor GPA prevents you from thorough consideration unless you have an outstanding factor the merit one. Some schools may use equations, sure, but I'm willing to bet a lot do look at GPA/LSAT separately (especially GPA whoring schools). My theory is generally that if one of your numbers is weak and you adcomms a reason to take a second look at your application in the form of the other (LSAT, in this case), they will look past the cut off.

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TommyK
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby TommyK » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:50 pm

Unitas wrote:
It is called an index number and a lot of schools tell you how they figure it out. But a school still answers (for lack of a better term) to US News and the categories are distinct for rankings. The point I think we are all making though is that a 3.0 is better than a 2.9 and if you earned a 3.0 you deserve it.


Sure, nobodys arguing that a 3.0 = 2.9. I just think we're blowing it out of proportion of importance. The difference in schools that he's gonna' be able to gain entrance into will be marginally (if at all) affected

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NewHere
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby NewHere » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:05 pm

Can't you play by their rules and make it work to your advantage by letting them substitute your two transcripts for your two worst records?

NoGoodDeed
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby NoGoodDeed » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:28 am

NewHere wrote:Can't you play by their rules and make it work to your advantage by letting them substitute your two transcripts for your two worst records?



No. They actually take the 8 schools with the most credits - leaving off, in my case, the two schools where I took a class or two.

From what I understand (and stated in my previous post) there is no way around this. I'm ok with it....I did go to ten schools (not ideal) and certainly not typical of the standard law applicant. But, this policy should have been spelled out fully on LSAC's website.

Honestly, and I think another poster made this point as well, a 2.93 compared to a 3.01 is probably not going to prevent me from getting into a school (that I would have got into with the 3.01).

I plan on writing an addendum but have no clue how to phrase this......"LSAC's numbers are wrong...please figure in my two remaining transcripts.".... Since I will now have to do an addendum I would like to point them to my strong upward trend in grades (I graduated with a 3.89 in my major specific courses). Could anyone give me a sample of what they might write if they were in the same situation? Two issues I need to address are 1)Missing transcripts in the LSAC formula and 2) Strong upward grades my final two years (graduating Magna Cum Laude).
Thanks!

RPK34
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby RPK34 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:59 am

NoGoodDeed wrote:
NewHere wrote:I plan on writing an addendum but have no clue how to phrase this......"LSAC's numbers are wrong...please figure in my two remaining transcripts.".... Since I will now have to do an addendum I would like to point them to my strong upward trend in grades (I graduated with a 3.89 in my major specific courses). Could anyone give me a sample of what they might write if they were in the same situation? Two issues I need to address are 1)Missing transcripts in the LSAC formula and 2) Strong upward grades my final two years (graduating Magna Cum Laude).
Thanks!


I, for one, would not start with: LSAC's numbers are wrong.

shoop
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby shoop » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:44 am

NoGoodDeed wrote:
To whom it may concern:

LSAT would only process 8 of my 10 transcripts so the GPA reflected (2.93) is not a complete representation of the body of my academic efforts. My degree granting institution did take those scores into consideration and my GPA is a 3.011.


Please, please, please... write EXACTLY this. MAYBE add a line about how you took twice as many schools AND years as Sarah Palin to get a bachelors degree.

NoGoodDeed
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby NoGoodDeed » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:01 pm

shoop wrote:
NoGoodDeed wrote:
To whom it may concern:

LSAT would only process 8 of my 10 transcripts so the GPA reflected (2.93) is not a complete representation of the body of my academic efforts. My degree granting institution did take those scores into consideration and my GPA is a 3.011.


Please, please, please... write EXACTLY this. MAYBE add a line about how you took twice as many schools AND years as Sarah Palin to get a bachelors degree.



Shoop, nice jab.....and one I have no excuse or defense from. I would take some classes and stop, move and start up again, and by no means am the traditional applicant. I don't take offense of you finding humor with my situation - I chuckle sometimes as well. On the flip side, I never stopped going to school. I always realized that a college degree was important - and hopefully my desire to see that thru will at least be viewed as somewhat favorable by the adcomm's.

Finally, while I would not vote for Palin, it must really piss you off that a woman (a non-traditional like myself) has made more money than you ever will - regardless of your LSAT score / GPA. Sleep well with that thought. :)

Now, does anyone have additional thoughts on an addendum?

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Unitas
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby Unitas » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:14 pm

NoGoodDeed wrote:
shoop wrote:
NoGoodDeed wrote:
To whom it may concern:

LSAT would only process 8 of my 10 transcripts so the GPA reflected (2.93) is not a complete representation of the body of my academic efforts. My degree granting institution did take those scores into consideration and my GPA is a 3.011.


Please, please, please... write EXACTLY this. MAYBE add a line about how you took twice as many schools AND years as Sarah Palin to get a bachelors degree.



Shoop, nice jab.....and one I have no excuse or defense from. I would take some classes and stop, move and start up again, and by no means am the traditional applicant. I don't take offense of you finding humor with my situation - I chuckle sometimes as well. On the flip side, I never stopped going to school. I always realized that a college degree was important - and hopefully my desire to see that thru will at least be viewed as somewhat favorable by the adcomm's.

Finally, while I would not vote for Palin, it must really piss you off that a woman (a non-traditional like myself) has made more money than you ever will - regardless of your LSAT score / GPA. Sleep well with that thought. :)

Now, does anyone have additional thoughts on an addendum?


Only thing I can think is to write an addendum to explain the ten schools and throw in at the end this caused these credits to not be counted into my cum gpa which would have been 3.01. Something like that.

Get a great LSAT then come ask about odds and where to apply.

NoGoodDeed
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby NoGoodDeed » Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:35 pm

Unitas wrote:
NoGoodDeed wrote:
shoop wrote:
NoGoodDeed wrote:
To whom it may concern:

LSAT would only process 8 of my 10 transcripts so the GPA reflected (2.93) is not a complete representation of the body of my academic efforts. My degree granting institution did take those scores into consideration and my GPA is a 3.011.


Please, please, please... write EXACTLY this. MAYBE add a line about how you took twice as many schools AND years as Sarah Palin to get a bachelors degree.



Shoop, nice jab.....and one I have no excuse or defense from. I would take some classes and stop, move and start up again, and by no means am the traditional applicant. I don't take offense of you finding humor with my situation - I chuckle sometimes as well. On the flip side, I never stopped going to school. I always realized that a college degree was important - and hopefully my desire to see that thru will at least be viewed as somewhat favorable by the adcomm's.

Finally, while I would not vote for Palin, it must really piss you off that a woman (a non-traditional like myself) has made more money than you ever will - regardless of your LSAT score / GPA. Sleep well with that thought. :)

Now, does anyone have additional thoughts on an addendum?


Only thing I can think is to write an addendum to explain the ten schools and throw in at the end this caused these credits to not be counted into my cum gpa which would have been 3.01. Something like that.

Get a great LSAT then come ask about odds and where to apply.


Great advice - I'm currently taking a class (and scoring around a 155 on P/T) With those numbers and understanding my situation could you recomend 5 reaches and 5 "good bets"?

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CG614
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Re: Bent over by LSAC today!!! I NEED YOUR HELP

Postby CG614 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:15 pm

NoGoodDeed wrote:
Great advice - I'm currently taking a class (and scoring around a 155 on P/T) With those numbers and understanding my situation could you recomend 5 reaches and 5 "good bets"?

3.01 and 155, Good Bet: Find another career option. Sorry to be blunt, but you are already behind the eight ball in years. Going to a lower tier school could pay off in the long run for most, but probably a bad call for you.

Caveat: Do you have some good work experience that would be attractive to firms?




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