Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

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capitalacq
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby capitalacq » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:59 pm

this thread is why we need to end federal guaranteed/subsidized loans

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Veyron
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby Veyron » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:09 pm

Integrity wrote:I agree with the sentiment of the post. Less that 1% of the world receives a college education, and I can only imagine how miniscule the percentage is for law students.

Unfortunately, some posters believe grandiloquent protestations of elitism, cynicism, and sarcasm reflect well on their intellect. Lots of people on TLS have the brains, but not the hearts (or looks either, I'd imagine).


I'm not competing against the bottom 99%. Practically every American is incredibly well off compared to others however, if we rest on our laurels we'll be back to living in huts in no time.

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Matthies
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby Matthies » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:17 pm

icydash wrote:
Matthies wrote:I'm not disputing that is defiantly harder to find a job at graduation lower down the totam pole, but just to be clear you understand the way legal hiring works as to why you can't do an apples to apples comparison of "jobs at graduation" between at t14 school and a t2 and

Well obviously it's not a perfect metric, and the kinds of jobs/quality of jobs, quality of reporting by the schools, etc are vastly varying.

Matthies wrote:why that nine month figure is important right?

I thought it was just because people can't or don't always get jobs immediately at graduation, and sometimes it takes longer to place people. Also, it takes into account people who get a job, fail the bar, and lose their job (or vice-versa) as a result....and it hopefully even shows a little bit as to the stability of the jobs graduates are getting. Is that not the case?


Sort of. Only the larger legal employers tend to hire a year out (large firms, some government jobs). So for the most part if you have an offer at graduation its mostly likely from a larger firm (because larger firms have more spaces to fill each year with lockstep/attrion, or at least these did before the meltdown). Any employer that does not have a large number of regular openings is not going to hire a year out. As we all know the largest firms tend to hire from the top ranked schools. Sure there are local "big law" but not enough to account for more than 15-20% at an average t2 in mid market even in a good economy.

So jobs at graduation tend to be skewed higher by larger firms recruiting at the top schools. Most people graduating law school will not have a firm offer at graduation (they may have an offer contingent on passing the bar, but at least for my schools employment questionnaire they said not to check "employed/unconditional" unless it was). When you apply between graduation and the bar, you will usually get a response like check back with us when your lic. Or you will see ads for entry level attorny that say State bar lic. required (which is code for don't apply till you know you passed). Employers don't want to hire somome, take a job off the market, then find out 60 days later that guy can't pratice.

So the majority of people will graduate in May w/o a job at graduation. between May and end of July pretty much nobody gets jobs because of bar study and the fact that most smaller legal employers hire when they need someone, so they can't/won't wait till results come out. Bar results for July come out October or sometimes later. Some folks don; take the July bar, or don't get their app approved in time for sitting for it, or fail,so take Feb, Feb bar results are usually out by April.

So for most students, especially those at lower ranked schools where you chances of getting hired a year out are much lower, the actual job search time comes late August/September of the year they graduated or March/April of the next. Within 30-45 days of results coming out is close enough for most employers if they like you wait to hire you. Also allot of folks who do have clerk jobs during this time that are contingent on bar passage don't know if they have a JD required job until they get bar results (hence can't answer employed JD required). So the nine month figure is really closer to what employment from most law schools is actually like given the nature of legal hiring from all but the top schools.

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Matthies
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby Matthies » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:22 pm

capitalacq wrote:this thread is why we need to end federal guaranteed/subsidized loans


Damn right, all those freaking social climbing poors filling up good law schools. Know your class people, if you can't pay cash then you should not be going to law school and mingling with us blue-bloods. We gave you free k-12 education, now go get a job in the fields where you belong.

bigben
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby bigben » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:27 pm

Guys. We get to read a bunch of material in books, and we get a nice diploma. All for only 150k and 3 yrs of our life. Some people complain about how they will never use a scintilla of what they read, or that their earning power is impacted negatively or not at all by the diploma. These people just miss the bigger picture. Just the reading of the books is a bargain--would be a bargain even at 300k. And don't forget you get the diploma, too.

Also, I have some incredible real estate investment opportunities becoming available. PM me if interested.
Last edited by bigben on Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Grizz
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:44 pm

capitalacq wrote:this thread is why we need to end federal guaranteed/subsidized loans


At least make them dischargeable in bankruptcy and tied to the probability of the loans being repaid.

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NU_Jet55
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby NU_Jet55 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:47 pm

capitalacq wrote:this thread is why we need to end federal guaranteed/subsidized loans


mother fucking credited.






Also, the existence of every tier 4 law school (and some of the tier 3's too).

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby D. H2Oman » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:47 pm

rad law wrote:
capitalacq wrote:this thread is why we need to end federal guaranteed/subsidized loans


At least make them dischargeable in bankruptcy and tied to the probability of the loans being repaid.


lolwut

How would that help?

bigben
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby bigben » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:48 pm

Matthies wrote:
capitalacq wrote:this thread is why we need to end federal guaranteed/subsidized loans


Damn right, all those freaking social climbing poors filling up good law schools. Know your class people, if you can't pay cash then you should not be going to law school and mingling with us blue-bloods. We gave you free k-12 education, now go get a job in the fields where you belong.


The idea is that private loans would be available wherever law school is actually a verifiable good investment.

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thecilent
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby thecilent » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:49 pm

Disagree with thread. Getting into law school is really not that difficult -- even a good school (maybe HYS aside). To me, being top 10% in law school is more something to be proud of.

Patting yourself on the back because you get to spend 150k+ more on school is foolish

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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby mallard » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:50 pm

Cilent21 wrote:Disagree with thread. Getting into law school is really not that difficult -- even a good school (maybe HYS aside). To me, being top 10% in law school is more something to be proud of.

Patting yourself on the back because you get to spend 150k+ more on school is foolish


Patting yourself on the back because you spent 150 hours on each class is foolish too.

bigben
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby bigben » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:51 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:
rad law wrote:
capitalacq wrote:this thread is why we need to end federal guaranteed/subsidized loans


At least make them dischargeable in bankruptcy and tied to the probability of the loans being repaid.


lolwut

How would that help?

Because many people won't be able to get loans. I.e., the people who really shouldn't be going because it is a waste of time and money. Those people can still go if they want, but they'll have to pay cash or get someone to loan regardless.
Last edited by bigben on Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby D. H2Oman » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:51 pm

mallard wrote:
Cilent21 wrote:Disagree with thread. Getting into law school is really not that difficult -- even a good school (maybe HYS aside). To me, being top 10% in law school is more something to be proud of.

Patting yourself on the back because you get to spend 150k+ more on school is foolish


Patting yourself on the back because you spent 150 hours on each class is foolish too.



Damn, when can I pat myself on the back???

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mallard
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby mallard » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:52 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:
mallard wrote:
Cilent21 wrote:Disagree with thread. Getting into law school is really not that difficult -- even a good school (maybe HYS aside). To me, being top 10% in law school is more something to be proud of.

Patting yourself on the back because you get to spend 150k+ more on school is foolish


Patting yourself on the back because you spent 150 hours on each class is foolish too.



Damn, when can I pat myself on the back???


You're a good guy. You can do it whenever you want.

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jmhendri
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby jmhendri » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:52 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:
mallard wrote:
Cilent21 wrote:Disagree with thread. Getting into law school is really not that difficult -- even a good school (maybe HYS aside). To me, being top 10% in law school is more something to be proud of.

Patting yourself on the back because you get to spend 150k+ more on school is foolish


Patting yourself on the back because you spent 150 hours on each class is foolish too.



Damn, when can I pat myself on the back???


When you go to N. Korean and kick ass in the world's first Just Bieber look alike contest.

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thecilent
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby thecilent » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:54 pm

mallard wrote:
Cilent21 wrote:Disagree with thread. Getting into law school is really not that difficult -- even a good school (maybe HYS aside). To me, being top 10% in law school is more something to be proud of.

Patting yourself on the back because you get to spend 150k+ more on school is foolish


Patting yourself on the back because you spent 150 hours on each class is foolish too.


Yeah, do not understand what this means..?
Last edited by thecilent on Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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NU_Jet55
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby NU_Jet55 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:00 pm

mallard wrote:
Cilent21 wrote:Disagree with thread. Getting into law school is really not that difficult -- even a good school (maybe HYS aside). To me, being top 10% in law school is more something to be proud of.

Patting yourself on the back because you get to spend 150k+ more on school is foolish


Patting yourself on the back because you spent 150 hours on each class is foolish too.


Spending 1.5 hours studying for a class/day is foolish?

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Matthies
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby Matthies » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:27 pm

bigben wrote:
Matthies wrote:
capitalacq wrote:this thread is why we need to end federal guaranteed/subsidized loans


Damn right, all those freaking social climbing poors filling up good law schools. Know your class people, if you can't pay cash then you should not be going to law school and mingling with us blue-bloods. We gave you free k-12 education, now go get a job in the fields where you belong.


The idea is that private loans would be available wherever law school is actually a verifiable good investment.


Ugh that does nothing for keeping me from having to share the same classroom with poor people's offspring.

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emorystud2010
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby emorystud2010 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:00 pm

Thanks OP
Last edited by emorystud2010 on Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WestOfTheRest
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby WestOfTheRest » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:05 pm

emorystud2010 wrote:reading this thread has kinda made me feel a little bit better about probably going to a mid 20's law school (admitted at iowa with good money, on wl at w&m, indiana, emory, bc, etc.). I thought about retaking the lsat and reapplying, but i think things will be ok if i just work hard and do well coming out. my goal is big law, but if i dont get it, i'll still be in better shape then most ppl. Thanks OP

= kill self

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thecilent
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby thecilent » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:05 pm

ITT: People gain a false sense of security.

I'm all for the law school investment, but I don't think enough people understand it isn't enough to just get into a school; you really have to bust your ass once you're in.

I just recently met two CLS grads who were around median and are still looking for jobs. That's why I'm saying yeah it's cool you can get into a school (even a good one), but it means nothing if you don't perform well.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby D. H2Oman » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:05 pm

emorystud2010 wrote:reading this thread has kinda made me feel a little bit better about probably going to a mid 20's law school (admitted at iowa with good money, on wl at w&m, indiana, emory, bc, etc.). I thought about retaking the lsat and reapplying, but i think things will be ok if i just work hard and do well coming out. my goal is big law, but if i dont get it, i'll still be in better shape then most ppl. Thanks OP



+1, nothing makes me feel better about my bad decision than looking at other people's even worse decisions.

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Grizz
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:09 pm

emorystud2010 wrote:reading this thread has kinda made me feel a little bit better about probably going to a mid 20's law school (admitted at iowa with good money, on wl at w&m, indiana, emory, bc, etc.). I thought about retaking the lsat and reapplying, but i think things will be ok if i just work hard and do well coming out. my goal is big law, but if i dont get it, i'll still be in better shape then most ppl. Thanks OP


From Emory I bet you could be competitive for jobs making about $40-$50 depending on your degree. The only difference is in 3 yrs, if you graduate around median, you might still be competing for $40k-$50k jobs, except you will be in the hole quite a bit more money.

Also hard work does not always translate into good grades.

Hope your scholarship is good.

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emorystud2010
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby emorystud2010 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:23 pm

cowtipping
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crazycanuck
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Re: Let's Put Law School In Perspective - We Should All Be Proud

Postby crazycanuck » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:01 am

Matthies wrote:
NotANoob wrote:
Nola wrote:I am not going to say that my post is great. I will say however, that this is exactly the crowd that needs to hear this. I have a feeling that once we get admitted to law school and prepare to graduate all of this anxiety will just be a distant memory that we can all joke about at graduation.




Some things I would think about:
1. Are you business and sales minded? For most law students, the answer to this is no (if they really were, they would be getting an MBA or going straight into the job market). Individuals who are blessed with a strong business acumen tend to do well no matter where they go to school -- but the reason for their success has little to do with their school or their intelligence, and much more to do with their ability to strike out on their own or thrive in an environment where you eat what you kill. Don't over estimate your ability to fall in this category. Really talk to some people who have done well for themselves as solo practitioners or in smaller firms. Find out what they needed to do to get to where they are.

Basically, I really encourage people to look at law school with a long view. Have an idea what you want to be doing when you graduate. Then have an idea where you want to be 5, 10, and 15 years out. Make sure you have multiple avenues to get to those outcomes. Do not assume it will "just work itself out."

There are many, many ways to be a successful attorney. By no means to all of them require a T14 degree. But all of them require a plan. You will have the most options and the best chance of success if you start putting that plan into motion before you even apply.



This freaking this. Don't go to law school thinking its going to be a job where your entire career some else will tell you what to, bring in the business for you, take all the risks and still pay you double each year. law is more likes sales than it is like accounting.


As you move up the totem pole at an accounting firm it's all sales.

Any services firm relies on sales.




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