I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

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KibblesAndVick
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby KibblesAndVick » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:18 am

EnriqueL wrote:
Alyssa wrote:I understand both sides here.



(oh, and lol at the school ratings he gave - yale is "good", stanford "wouldn't recommend" and harvard "not as good as yale")


I wouldn't recommend Stanford unless you know you want to do BigLaw. That's what it's known for.

My enthusiasm is limited because if I could go back in time, I would not go to Harvard or Stanford if I got in and had a decent scholarship. Yale is another story; but I wouldn't be all excited about it either.

Well we can't go back in time, but we sure can talk about our choices.


You wouldn't be all excited about attending Yale and wouldn't attend Harvard or Stanford? Did you want to be a lawyer? Because what that sounds like is "Regardless of my job opportunities I still would not go to law school".

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Ty Webb
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Ty Webb » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:18 am

EnriqueL wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:Why would they hire me if they have no need for me? You're the one who's entitled if you think that doing well in a good school entitled you to a job in nowheresville.


Dear Short-Bus: Calling secondary markets "nowheresville" makes you entitled.


No it doesn't. It's quicker and easier than mentioning the actual location.


Dense.

EnriqueL
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby EnriqueL » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:19 am

You fail to understand that the legal profession is badly screwed. There's no "lulz" about it. Harvard or Yale is not going to change that. It just gives you better access to the better-paying jobs.

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kalvano
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby kalvano » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:20 am

EnriqueL wrote:You fail to understand that the legal profession is badly screwed. There's no "lulz" about it. Harvard or Yale is not going to change that. It just gives you better access to the better-paying jobs.



I really hope you see the logic fail here.
Last edited by kalvano on Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Notor
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Notor » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:20 am

Vast majority of people entering law school are only doing so because they want $$$, a prestigious-sounding career, and they majored in something dumb during undergrad that eliminates a clear road towards the first two.

Too many people are expecting law school to be the road into McMansion Trophy-Wife Land. Don't go a quarter of a million dollars in debt just because you made the dumb decision to major in the humanities or political science and don't know how else you can afford to be a designer label consumer for the rest of your target-market life.

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interalia
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby interalia » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:20 am

jdhonest wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:
kalvano wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:Around $50,000. It's not too bad in itself; but if law schools are charging $150,000 to attend and then misrepresenting the data on starting salaries, then we have a problem. This has all been covered before, you're right, by the JDU and "law school scam" crowd. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a scam right now, but sometimes I wonder whether they know that they are full of shit.



How much will you be making in 5 years? A lot of people fail to take in to account the long-term salary benefits of a JD.


That's the thing. I will consider myself lucky if I'll be making even slightly more. There's a big chance that I end up making less five years down the road. The structural problems in the legal field and the ABA's response to them are terrifying.

It's not at all what you think, kalvano.


Whatcha got ain't nothin new. This economy's hard on people, you can't stop what's coming, it ain't all waiting on you. That's vanity.


I love it.

You can't stop what's coming (perpetual underemployment for OP), it ain't all waitin' on you.

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legalease9
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby legalease9 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:20 am

EnriqueL wrote:Just to make this clear, I'm going to let you know right off the bat that I know that the economy sucks. That's true, but that's a cyclical issue. The nosedive in the economy just quickened the inevitable in the legal profession. There were reports here and there about the unsound structure in the legal economy before the crisis hit. Happy days are not coming back for us anytime soon. It's irresponsible to suggest that they are.


Most of the economy was unstable inflated BS. That's why the crisis happened.

There is some truth to the fact that the legal market will probably be a challenging market even after recovery BUT, the legal economy is actually quite cyclical, and WILL IMPROVE along with the overall economy. This is because the legal economy is dependent upon all the economic markets whose corporations hire lawyers.

Saying you shouldn't be a lawyer because the market will never return to the glory days is like saying you shouldn't become a computer programmer because of the dot com bust. Programmers still make good money, and lawyers will still make good money. 160k right out of law school? Maybe not. But lawyers won't be hitting the poverty line any time soon.

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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby EnriqueL » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:21 am

KibblesAndVick wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:
Alyssa wrote:I understand both sides here.



(oh, and lol at the school ratings he gave - yale is "good", stanford "wouldn't recommend" and harvard "not as good as yale")


I wouldn't recommend Stanford unless you know you want to do BigLaw. That's what it's known for.

My enthusiasm is limited because if I could go back in time, I would not go to Harvard or Stanford if I got in and had a decent scholarship. Yale is another story; but I wouldn't be all excited about it either.

Well we can't go back in time, but we sure can talk about our choices.


You wouldn't be all excited about attending Yale and wouldn't attend Harvard or Stanford? Did you want to be a lawyer? Because what that sounds like is "Regardless of my job opportunities I still would not go to law school".


This is frustrating. If you go to Harvard or Yale, you can probably get into BigLaw. If BigLaw is downsizing, then please explain to me why the fuck I would be enthusiastic about getting into BigLaw?

The only position that I would find worth it is either US Attorney or a job in a Federal agency. I'd attend HYS for those jobs. Sure. There, I've revised my position.

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legalease9
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby legalease9 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:21 am

Notor wrote:Vast majority of people entering law school are only doing so because they want $$$, a prestigious-sounding career, and they majored in something dumb during undergrad that eliminates a clear road towards the first two.

Too many people are expecting law school to be the road into McMansion Trophy-Wife Land. Don't go a quarter of a million dollars in debt just because you made the dumb decision to major in the humanities or political science and don't know how else you can afford to be a designer label consumer for the rest of your target-market life.


+1

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Ty Webb
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Ty Webb » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:22 am

Also, does the fact that the OP is posting this at 10-11AM on a Friday morning (you know, when most people in the legal profession are WORKING) not raise any major red flags?

It's either:

A) Flame. And not an interesting or new one.

B) Get the fuck off of the internet and do your job, then perhaps you'll have less to complain about.

EnriqueL
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby EnriqueL » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:22 am

kalvano wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:You fail to understand that the legal profession is badly screwed. There's no "lulz" about it. Harvard or Yale is not going to change that. It just gives you better access to the better-paying jobs.



I really hope you see the logic fail here.


How many BigLaw associates do you know who got cut? How many got deferred? Getting your foot in the door is only step one.

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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby EnriqueL » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:22 am

Ty Webb wrote:Also, does the fact that the OP is posting this at 10-11AM on a Friday morning (you know, when most people in the legal profession are WORKING) not raise any major red flags?

It's either:

A) Flame. And not an interesting or new one.

B) Get the fuck off of the internet and do your job, then perhaps you'll have less to complain about.


I'm studying for the bar, dude.

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jackalope11
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby jackalope11 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:22 am

legalease9 wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:
+1000000000! Very well said!


Tell that to the large minority of graduates who don't practice law. :roll:



legalease9: Thank you very much! :oops:

EnriqueL: I'm not sure I understand the critique, or the eye roll... I don't think I criticized your main points, only that ITE there seems to be a rather significant proportion of LS candidates that have run to legal studies in hopes of acquiring the big paycheck. Hence, there is an overprovision of lawyers in the market, depressing wages for everyone (including what I believe is the majority, students wishing to study the law because it is their passion). Actually, if anything, my post supported your argument and subsequent supporting statements regarding the economics of today's legal employment climate. Am I missing something?

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MrKappus
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby MrKappus » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:23 am

EnriqueL wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:Also, does the fact that the OP is posting this at 10-11AM on a Friday morning (you know, when most people in the legal profession are WORKING) not raise any major red flags?

It's either:

A) Flame. And not an interesting or new one.

B) Get the fuck off of the internet and do your job, then perhaps you'll have less to complain about.


I'm studying for the bar, dude.


Apparently not.

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Ty Webb
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Ty Webb » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:23 am

EnriqueL wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:Also, does the fact that the OP is posting this at 10-11AM on a Friday morning (you know, when most people in the legal profession are WORKING) not raise any major red flags?

It's either:

A) Flame. And not an interesting or new one.

B) Get the fuck off of the internet and do your job, then perhaps you'll have less to complain about.


I'm studying for the bar, dude.


Quite the multi-tasker.

So this is where your intimate knowledge of the legal profession comes from. Interesting.

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PKSebben
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby PKSebben » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:24 am

though often ridiculous and hyperbolic, do relay real experience


I'm confused on this point. If it's ridiculous and hyperbolic, how is it a real experience? Why can't we just get straight shooters? As a recent grad, I know it's tough out there and I'm sympathetic to those left out in the cold. But what you never quite hear about from the scam-blog types is which school they attended, how much debt they took on, what their grades were, and what they're doing now. If you want people to reconsider law school (and I think many of them should) then I think it's only fair you ask them to make an informed decision. And most of the scam blogs/JDU types seem less interested in helping people make informed decisions but rather more in taking delight in scaring the bejesus out of people. The former I can respect, the latter I cannot.

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KibblesAndVick
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby KibblesAndVick » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:25 am

PKSebben wrote:
though often ridiculous and hyperbolic, do relay real experience


I'm confused on this point. If it's ridiculous and hyperbolic, how is it a real experience? Why can't we just get straight shooters? As a recent grad, I know it's tough out there and I'm sympathetic to those left out in the cold. But what you never quite hear about from the scam-blog types is which school they attended, how much debt they took on, what their grades were, and what they're doing now. If you want people to reconsider law school (and I think many of them should) then I think it's only fair you ask them to make an informed decision. And most of the scam blogs/JDU types seem less interested in helping people make informed decisions but rather more in taking delight in scaring the bejesus out of people. The former I can respect, the latter I cannot.


+1

rundoxierun
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby rundoxierun » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:27 am

EnriqueL wrote:
Alyssa wrote:I understand both sides here.



(oh, and lol at the school ratings he gave - yale is "good", stanford "wouldn't recommend" and harvard "not as good as yale")


I wouldn't recommend Stanford unless you know you want to do BigLaw. That's what it's known for.

My enthusiasm is limited because if I could go back in time, I would not go to Harvard or Stanford if I got in and had a decent scholarship. Yale is another story; but I wouldn't be all excited about it either.

Well we can't go back in time, but we sure can talk about our choices.


Lucky for me I have seen enough of the "real world" to know that ~99% of jobs are decidedly unfulfilling to most people either because the work sucks or they make too little/no opp for advancement. Im currently working a summer job in finance for a Fortune 500 level company and while the work sucks, I have discovered I definitely have the personality type that leads to the decent pay making it better. I have never understood the illusion of thinking you need this perfect job that you love forever. I would love to get into academia, but if that doesn't work out biglaw wont be much worse than what the rest of my fellow econ grads are doing. Basically people need to accept the fact that MOST jobs suck when they complain about legal work based on lifestyle. You really should look other places in life for fulfillment.

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pjo
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby pjo » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:27 am

rad law wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:I know it's around the time many will be getting ready to start partying this weekendbe sending the tuition deposits. Please understand that the problems with ED in legal hiringare not cyclical. They are structural. A law degree has become the default post-graduate degree for non-technically trained students. The job situation Losing your mojois a complete catastrophe; and even thejobs women that are available are not worth the three years and $100,000. inevitable humiliation and depression.


179


haha every single thread it seems like theres a radlaw/romo tag team comedy skit. They're the dean martin/jerry lewis of TLS. (or Will Ferrel/John Reily for now a days)
Last edited by pjo on Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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legalease9
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby legalease9 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:28 am

EnriqueL wrote:
KibblesAndVick wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:
Alyssa wrote:I understand both sides here.



(oh, and lol at the school ratings he gave - yale is "good", stanford "wouldn't recommend" and harvard "not as good as yale")


I wouldn't recommend Stanford unless you know you want to do BigLaw. That's what it's known for.

My enthusiasm is limited because if I could go back in time, I would not go to Harvard or Stanford if I got in and had a decent scholarship. Yale is another story; but I wouldn't be all excited about it either.

Well we can't go back in time, but we sure can talk about our choices.


You wouldn't be all excited about attending Yale and wouldn't attend Harvard or Stanford? Did you want to be a lawyer? Because what that sounds like is "Regardless of my job opportunities I still would not go to law school".


This is frustrating. If you go to Harvard or Yale, you can probably get into BigLaw. If BigLaw is downsizing, then please explain to me why the fuck I would be enthusiastic about getting into BigLaw?

The only position that I would find worth it is either US Attorney or a job in a Federal agency. I'd attend HYS for those jobs. Sure. There, I've revised my position.


Ok, so what I'm seeing here is that you really wish you hadn't gone to law school because you have realized that you have no interest in the profession outside of an extremely limited number of jobs. I feel for you, as this is a realization any law student could have after its too late.

But that has NOTHING to do with the economy. This is just the consequence of being trained in a professional school for a profession you turn out not to like. Its a good warning for those casually entering law school, but isn't a reason for those who want to practice law to drop out.

Edit: Also, from HYS you could stroll into a federal agency and snatch up a job. This idea that you can't get a fed job from Stanford is silly. Many don't, because fed jobs don't pay as well. But they certainly can.
Last edited by legalease9 on Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

EnriqueL
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby EnriqueL » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:29 am

PKSebben wrote:
though often ridiculous and hyperbolic, do relay real experience


I'm confused on this point. If it's ridiculous and hyperbolic, how is it a real experience? Why can't we just get straight shooters? As a recent grad, I know it's tough out there and I'm sympathetic to those left out in the cold. But what you never quite hear about from the scam-blog types is which school they attended, how much debt they took on, what their grades were, and what they're doing now. If you want people to reconsider law school (and I think many of them should) then I think it's only fair you ask them to make an informed decision. And most of the scam blogs/JDU types seem less interested in helping people make informed decisions but rather more in taking delight in scaring the bejesus out of people. The former I can respect, the latter I cannot.


No one wants to out themselves on the internet, but a few of them do give you an idea.

T14 Paradise: Drake
Big Debt, Small Law: Seton Hall
First tier toilet: T14, I think
But I did everything right: T14 for one author, and I think a T50 for the other

They are hyperbolic when they rant; but nothing I've ever read on there reads like a lie. Some of them shoot straighter then the others though.

EnriqueL
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby EnriqueL » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:30 am

tkgrrett wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:
Alyssa wrote:I understand both sides here.



(oh, and lol at the school ratings he gave - yale is "good", stanford "wouldn't recommend" and harvard "not as good as yale")


I wouldn't recommend Stanford unless you know you want to do BigLaw. That's what it's known for.

My enthusiasm is limited because if I could go back in time, I would not go to Harvard or Stanford if I got in and had a decent scholarship. Yale is another story; but I wouldn't be all excited about it either.

Well we can't go back in time, but we sure can talk about our choices.


Lucky for me I have seen enough of the "real world" to know that ~99% of jobs are decidedly unfulfilling to most people either because the work sucks or they make too little/no opp for advancement. Im currently working a summer job in finance for a Fortune 500 level company and while the work sucks, I have discovered I definitely have the personality type that leads to the decent pay making it better. I have never understood the illusion of thinking you need this perfect job that you love forever. I would love to get into academia, but if that doesn't work out biglaw wont be much worse than what the rest of my fellow econ grads are doing. Basically people need to accept the fact that MOST jobs suck when they complain about legal work based on lifestyle. You really should look other places in life for fulfillment.


I don't think you should go to law school.

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jackalope11
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby jackalope11 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:31 am

pjo wrote:haha every single thread it seems like theres a radlaw/romo tag team comedy skit. They're the dean martin/jerry lewis of TLS. (or Will Ferrel/John Reily for now a days)



Great... now you've compared Romo to Will Ferrell... he'll never let us hear the end of it. :lol:

He's Ron Burgundy? (from the teleprompter)


(Edited for typing failure.)
Last edited by jackalope11 on Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

EnriqueL
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby EnriqueL » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:32 am

legalease9 wrote:
KibblesAndVick wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:
Alyssa wrote:I understand both sides here.



(oh, and lol at the school ratings he gave - yale is "good", stanford "wouldn't recommend" and harvard "not as good as yale")


I wouldn't recommend Stanford unless you know you want to do BigLaw. That's what it's known for.

My enthusiasm is limited because if I could go back in time, I would not go to Harvard or Stanford if I got in and had a decent scholarship. Yale is another story; but I wouldn't be all excited about it either.

Well we can't go back in time, but we sure can talk about our choices.


You wouldn't be all excited about attending Yale and wouldn't attend Harvard or Stanford? Did you want to be a lawyer? Because what that sounds like is "Regardless of my job opportunities I still would not go to law school".


This is frustrating. If you go to Harvard or Yale, you can probably get into BigLaw. If BigLaw is downsizing, then please explain to me why the fuck I would be enthusiastic about getting into BigLaw?

The only position that I would find worth it is either US Attorney or a job in a Federal agency. I'd attend HYS for those jobs. Sure. There, I've revised my position.


Ok, so what I'm seeing here is that you really wish you hadn't gone to law school because you have realized that you have no interest in the profession outside of an extremely limited number of jobs. I feel for you, as this is a realization any law student could have after its too late.

But that has NOTHING to do with the economy. This is just the consequence of being trained in a professional school for a profession you turn out not to like. Its a good warning for those casually entering law school, but isn't a reason for those who want to practice law to drop out.[/quote]


Ok, by now you're just grasping at straws. I loved the law. I wanted to be a lawyer since I was 12. You're not getting it.

I think at this point, if you want to disbelieve me, go ahead. It's getting ridiculous here.
Last edited by EnriqueL on Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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98234872348
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby 98234872348 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:32 am

jackalope11 wrote:Great... now you've has compared Romo to Will Ferrell... he'll never let us hear the end of it. :lol:

He's Ron Burgundy? (from the teleprompter)

I hope this was intentional.




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