I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:15 pm

john titor wrote:I resume-bombed firms, searched the requisite job sites, got 2 OCI interviews (no offer). I got my current job by exploiting a personal connection, basically.

to answer your other question, I'm going to ask for a raise in august. ive got my eye out for other job opportunities, but I havent found anything that I could get that pays more than 50. I like the geographic area where I work, though, so I'm basically just thanking my lucky stars that I get to work here at all. "entry-level" associate jobs just dont exist in my county, unless theyre grandfathered in like I was.


Maybe I'm just being overly optermistic... but I feel that even though you only have 25k/yr left after loans + taxes, lawyers are in a position to continue upward mobility. Entry level grads down here in the Miami, FL market are fetching around 50-75k on Craigslist where you typically see a lawyer with 10 years in the game earning upwards of 150k. I've even seen government jobs commanding those pay rates with 7-10 years of experience; I wouldn't mind being around there in my 40's.

Although to be fair I think the pay figure comes from the rainmaking aspect of it. I, for one, understand that my law firm needs to make a profit off of me. The higher the profit, the better my pay and the better my bonus; hence, rainmaking will be a large aspect of my free-time at least for a while after LS.

I'm pretty sure I'm talking out of my ass and ignoring the politics - but I do know business and the numbers need to add up at the end of the day.

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john titor
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby john titor » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:23 pm

yeah sure, if I stay in this job, the only way I can go is up (pretty sure my boss wouldnt CUT my pay ever, but I could be wrong; others might not think twice about cutting an associate's pay). but that's assuming I get to keep the job. I've been here for 10 months and I've billed just over 100k. I dont really know how profitable that makes me, if it does at all. I'm practicing a type of law where collecting fees is notoriously difficult, so Im not sure how much of my billings we've collected. I dont know what my share of the overhead is. im just hoping I dont get fired.

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:26 pm

john titor wrote:yeah sure, if I stay in this job, the only way I can go is up (pretty sure my boss wouldnt CUT my pay ever, but I could be wrong; others might not think twice about cutting an associate's pay). but that's assuming I get to keep the job. I've been here for 10 months and I've billed just over 100k. I dont really know how profitable that makes me, if it does at all. I'm practicing a type of law where collecting fees is notoriously difficult, so Im not sure how much of my billings we've collected. I dont know what my share of the overhead is. im just hoping I dont get fired.


I've been meaning to ask somebody in your situation: Do you have a mentor to ask those questions to? Would it be taboo to be retroactive on that subject with your boss?

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john titor
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby john titor » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:28 pm

not quite sure what you mean by mentor. I know that my bar association has mentoring programs, but i havent really looked into them at all, mostly because I'm not sure how that would help me.

it certainly would not be taboo for me to ask my boss what my "real cost" is to the firm, but in all honesty I'm afraid of the answer.

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robin600
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby robin600 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:31 pm

EnriqueL wrote:
quishiclocus wrote:In other words...

Law School: Still not a Get Rich Quick scheme.

The economy is bad. The economy's going to be bad no matter what you do. Preparing yourself for a career you love is always a good move. Preparing yourself for a career in order to get rich is always a bad move. Can we move on already?

The ones who're in this for the dream of the fancy cars and Manhattan apartments aren't going to listen, and the ones who don't care about that would just kill to be in your shoes of being able to do it without debt.


Nah. Actually I dreamed of working DoJ or FTC. Can't do that now that they have their pick of no-offered or underemployed HYS's. Nice try though.

Dude if you look at their hiring paterns and incoming honors attorneys they hire from the top 50 in the same amount quite regularly. Students from all over the T50 get jobs every year in the DoJ. Sorry you didn't get your dream job, most people don't, hence the term dream job.

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:37 pm

john titor wrote:not quite sure what you mean by mentor. I know that my bar association has mentoring programs, but i havent really looked into them at all, mostly because I'm not sure how that would help me.

it certainly would not be taboo for me to ask my boss what my "real cost" is to the firm, but in all honesty I'm afraid of the answer.


I've heard of certain firms assigning a mentor to associates that'll eventually move them into a rainmaking role. And, again - I'm not a JD but having +6 years of experience in administrative roles, I wouldn't hold it against somebody trying to "get it" and isn't afraid to sit down and talk numbers. At the end of the day, chances are he's lamenting with the answer if you're not doing so hot anyways.

Something I havn't given thought was the fact that some areas of law make it hard to collect fees; having to send stuff to collection agencies and such I would imagine. Good to think about when choosing my area of practice.

xyzbca
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby xyzbca » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:38 pm

ResolutePear wrote:Personally, I'm planning to bust myself to get top 10%, and if I fall under top-30%, well.. chances are I'll just drop out and call it a day. Do something else with my life. There's nothing wrong with counting your losses than taking a crap JD from a crap school from a crap city from a crap state from a crap nation from a crap world from a crap universe... or is there? That's a choice.. full vs 1/3 and taking the 10-40k as a loss in a gamble.


1. Have you considered the possibility that the amount of effort you put into law school won't really decide your class rank? 90% of your class is going to work hard 1L year. I think hard work is a given and has very little to do with differentiation between class percentiles. From my experience: Top 10% 1L = hard work + being hard wired for law school exams. On some level, the second part is just dumb luck b/c I have no idea how to identify if one is going to do well on law school exams short of actually sitting for a round of law school exams. By the time most students figure it, 1L has already passed. I don't mean to suggest that one can't improve in taking law school exams, but my Torts professor was fond of saying that second semester grades tracked very closely with first semester grades with the exception of one or two students. My Contracts professor started second semester by advising the class that everybody would likely work twice as hard second semester just to maintain their position from first semester. I do come away with the impression that it is possible to improve your GPA and class rank later on in school, but by that time things like law review have already been decided.

2. If you are on a semester system, usually you are well into second semester by the time you get first semester grades. At that point, most people rationalize that they'll stick it out to see if they improve second semester. By the time 1L year is done most people rationalize that they are a third of the way through and can't quit now. I think people find it very difficult to objectively decide whether or not they should drop out.

FTR b/c I'm sure you'll ask: T50, Top 10%.

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john titor
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby john titor » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:41 pm

my firm only has 3 partners, 4 associates, and the youngest attorney (besides me) is 35. i guess my boss is my mentor, but certainly not a formal program.

we never send accounts to collection. we have sued clients before that straight up refused to pay their bill, but my boss considers collection agencies distasteful, prohibitively expensive, and largely ineffective.

we do have several clients with balances of 200k+ who pay us like 1k per month.

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:46 pm

xyzbca wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Personally, I'm planning to bust myself to get top 10%, and if I fall under top-30%, well.. chances are I'll just drop out and call it a day. Do something else with my life. There's nothing wrong with counting your losses than taking a crap JD from a crap school from a crap city from a crap state from a crap nation from a crap world from a crap universe... or is there? That's a choice.. full vs 1/3 and taking the 10-40k as a loss in a gamble.


1. Have you considered the possibility that the amount of effort you put into law school won't really decide your class rank? 90% of your class is going to work hard 1L year. I think hard work is a given and has very little to do with differentiation between class percentiles. From my experience: Top 10% 1L = hard work + being hard wired for law school exams. On some level, the second part is just dumb luck b/c I have no idea how to identify if one is going to do well on law school exams short of actually sitting for a round of law school exams. By the time most students figure it, 1L has already passed. I don't mean to suggest that one can't improve in taking law school exams, but my Torts professor was fond of saying that second semester grades tracked very closely with first semester grades with the exception of one or two students. My Contracts professor started second semester by advising the class that everybody would likely work twice as hard second semester just to maintain their position from first semester. I do come away with the impression that it is possible to improve your GPA and class rank later on in school, but by that time things like law review have already been decided.

2. If you are on a semester system, usually you are well into second semester by the time you get first semester grades. At that point, most people rationalize that they'll stick it out to see if they improve second semester. By the time 1L year is done most people rationalize that they are a third of the way through and can't quit now. I think people find it very difficult to objectively decide whether or not they should drop out.

FTR b/c I'm sure you'll ask: T50, Top 10%.


Thanks for the insight,

In my view - at the end of the day, when deciding whether you should drop out or not is akin to sitting down at a poker table. Do you pull out when you're 30% down or when you're out? I really do see how people might rationalize it, but why bother staying when you can't do the fun stuff(law review, moot court, etc.)? I know, it's very childish to think of it like that.. but it's about passion and being locked out of a large part of it in your school.

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john titor
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby john titor » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:47 pm

dude, law review is the opposite of fun.

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:48 pm

john titor wrote:my firm only has 3 partners, 4 associates, and the youngest attorney (besides me) is 35. i guess my boss is my mentor, but certainly not a formal program.

we never send accounts to collection. we have sued clients before that straight up refused to pay their bill, but my boss considers collection agencies distasteful, prohibitively expensive, and largely ineffective.

we do have several clients with balances of 200k+ who pay us like 1k per month.


Would you guys charge interest in that situation? I know I would. :D

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:50 pm

john titor wrote:dude, law review is the opposite of fun.


Well, coming from a technical background that's 70% research, writing proposals, etc. and only 30% implementation - I think it is fun and rewarding. I'll let you know when/if I get to that point, though.

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john titor
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby john titor » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:54 pm

I honestly dont know, but I doubt it. when you are only going to collect a fraction of the fee, charging interest is kind of pointless, and only serves to piss the client off, which would increase the chance of them saying "F YOU" and stop sending us the (paltry) monthly payment on their balance.

we dont let client balances get that big normally. we will drop clients if they fall more than 5k behind generally. the only cases where we let the giant balances mount up are gayby cases.

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john titor
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby john titor » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:56 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
john titor wrote:dude, law review is the opposite of fun.


Well, coming from a technical background that's 70% research, writing proposals, etc. and only 30% implementation - I think it is fun and rewarding. I'll let you know when/if I get to that point, though.


haha! well, i was never on law review, but my friends who were certainly did not find it fun, especially when you are in the middle of your classwork and you know you have 3+ hours of cite checking ahead of you. but hey, I am certainly guilty of enjoying many things that people would consider 'work.' I wish you good luck in making a journal so you can see for yourself!

EnriqueL
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby EnriqueL » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:41 pm

I've gotten a lot of private messages and am busy responding to them. There is a ton of disinformation on this thread.

Yes, when T14 students cannot find BigLaw jobs, they compete with applicants from lower schools for small law jobs. Saying that the T14 and TTT students do not compete in the same market because T14 students rely on OCI is wrong.

Matthies is trying to convince these kids that they should blow $150,000 of money they don't have on a legal education. This guy is a joke.

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Grizz
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:46 pm

EnriqueL wrote:Matthies is trying to convince these kids that they should blow $150,000 of money they don't have on a legal education. This guy is a joke.


Gross mischaracterization of Matthies.

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merichard87
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby merichard87 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:49 pm

EnriqueL wrote:I've gotten a lot of private messages and am busy responding to them. There is a ton of disinformation on this thread.

Yes, when T14 students cannot find BigLaw jobs, they compete with applicants from lower schools for small law jobs. Saying that the T14 and TTT students do not compete in the same market because T14 students rely on OCI is wrong.

Matthies is trying to convince these kids that they should blow $150,000 of money they don't have on a legal education. This guy is a joke.



That is not at all what he's saying. Go back to your private messages and screw with someone else's mind frame.

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Matthies
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Matthies » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:54 pm

EnriqueL wrote:
Matthies is trying to convince these kids that they should blow $150,000 of money they don't have on a legal education Pilipino shemales and coke .


Fixt for what I am trying to convince these kids to do.

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Rikkugrrl
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Rikkugrrl » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:01 pm

Matthies wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:
Matthies is trying to convince these kids that they should blow $150,000 of money they don't have on a legal education Pilipino shemales and coke .


Fixt for what I am trying to convince these kids to do.


One of like three posts on here that's actually made me spit out my root beer laughing.

EnriqueL
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby EnriqueL » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:05 pm

Everyone should read this though I don't agree with the author's blaming the victims of the student loan scam: http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/why-are-peop ... -to/415730

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:33 pm

EnriqueL wrote:I've gotten a lot of private messages and am busy responding to them. There is a ton of disinformation on this thread.

Yes, when T14 students cannot find BigLaw jobs, they compete with applicants from lower schools for small law jobs. Saying that the T14 and TTT students do not compete in the same market because T14 students rely on OCI is wrong.

Matthies is trying to convince these kids that they should blow $150,000 of money they don't have on a legal education. This guy is a joke.


Everybody in this thread is dumber because of you. I still award you no points.

Matthies is optimistic and I don't think that's a bad thing.

You obviously want to start a business and you're just mad you haven't realized it yet. True story.

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truffleshuffle
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby truffleshuffle » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:38 pm

EnriqueL wrote:Matthies is trying to convince these kids that they should blow $150,000 of money they don't have on a legal education. This guy is a joke.


All he is saying is that if your going to go the Law school you better put forth fucking effort looking for a job and don't sit around waiting for everything to fall in your goddamn lap.

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MTal
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby MTal » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:43 pm

truffleshuffle wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:Matthies is trying to convince these kids that they should blow $150,000 of money they don't have on a legal education. This guy is a joke.


All he is saying is that if your going to go the Law school you better put forth fucking effort looking for a job and don't sit around waiting for everything to fall in your goddamn lap.


Yeah, all you need to do is "work hard" and "network".

::snicker::

EnriqueL
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby EnriqueL » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:35 pm

MTal wrote:
truffleshuffle wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:Matthies is trying to convince these kids that they should blow $150,000 of money they don't have on a legal education. This guy is a joke.


All he is saying is that if your going to go the Law school you better put forth fucking effort looking for a job and don't sit around waiting for everything to fall in your goddamn lap.


Yeah, all you need to do is "work hard" and "network".

::snicker::


Didn't get a job? You didn't "network" enough.

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Sauer Grapes
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Sauer Grapes » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:46 pm

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Last edited by Sauer Grapes on Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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