I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:53 am

rui wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Maybe I'm just thinking like an endowed douchebag here, but - if they were interested in attendance, wouldn't they offer a financial aid package? And even having to attend Yale full-price, don't you think there is something beyond the law school's control as to why you're not competitive in the market with the best credentials possible for any entry-level law office position?

I agree with other people when they say: you can be the best law school student - ever, but if you're an anti-social jerk walking into an interview with sneakers, jeans, and a wrinkled t-shirt... I think chances are slim as far as your success goes. Unless you're House. And there's already a House on this forum.


Law Schools are not in the business of selling themselves short so you shouldn't 100% trust the answers you get from a school rep. See: Duke and the "100% employed at graduation" reference in the link above.

When I said interested in your attendance, I was implying that they were interested in the majority of students' applications to either 1) reject for USNWR selectivity purposes or 2) accept at sticker. There is a small subset of individuals who are desired and get money packages, but those aren't really the people we're talking about (Yale with $$$ is a no brainer for 99% of the people on this forum -- that's not the issue).

As for people with interview problems or shortcomings that's all true, but you absolutely can't believe that these are the only people who aren't getting employed out of school. Reposting this link that I just added to my original post:

http://thelegaldollar.blogspot.com/2010 ... rt_15.html


Would you go as far to say that there are T14 students who do not get jobs even within a year after employment? We have to remember that there are students who have never "experienced" the "real world". I can't speak for a law career, but I can as a person who hired recent grads in the IT field, and I'll try to keep it as general as possible:

Do you have tattoos? Piercings? Are your looks up to par with the position? Can you sell yourself? What have you done that sets you apart from another applicant? What softs do you have that can benefit the company? Projects? Internships? Are you wearing a tie(if you're a guy)? Are you asking for 2x the market rate? Do you seem like a person who will whine? Does your personality look like one that could eventually marry the job/company? How passionate are you?

If I had to translate it to "law career terms":

Do you have tattoos? Piercings? Are your looks up to par with the position? Can you sell yourself? What have you done that sets you apart from another applicant? What softs do you have that can benefit the company? Moot court? Law review? Clinics? Are you wearing a tie(if you're a guy)? Are you asking for 2x the market rate? Do you seem like a person who will whine? Does your personality look like one that could eventually marry the job/company? Do you have clientèle(excluded for entry-level)? How passionate are you? ARE YOU A PERSON THAT WILL BRING IN AN AMOUNT OF BILLABLE HOURS THAT WILL MAKE A NET PROFIT FOR MY COMPANY?

Of course, I'm just going on my own experience here and dangerously extrapolating to what I have read about firm expectations.

I would imagine that some people just don't have what it takes to be hire-able, even at a T14 at a OCI or within a year after graduation. I'm curious, are any of the people without a job the same people who have done law review, moot courts, and other extracurriculars?

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Matthies
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Matthies » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:08 am

ResolutePear wrote: I'm curious, are any of the people without a job the same people who have done law review, moot courts, and other extracurriculars?


Just to give you my personal experince I did not do law review, i did a secondary jounral on the area of law I wanted to pratice and wrote on 1L (amazing for a dyslxic kid who did not learn to read or write his won name until after he was 10 huh? Ah technlogy thank you for making me only borderline illerate) Anyway that was the ONLY thing I did IN SCHOOL. Everything else I did outside of school, I joined the local bar assn first year, an Inn of Court, went to section meeetings in my pratcie area. The kids in teh clubs at school were my compaition for jobs, the lawyers and judges I met in the bar association where the people with jobs to give me. I've never applied for a job, ever, every job (and I went PT to LS and worked in the legal field, somome offered ME). Yea it can be that easy, if you don't take the "But I did everything right" attitude, odss are what you think is right based on common wisdom won't work as often as you think it will. Get the F out of schoo, and get involved in the profesion you want to work in so people know who you are more than just a resume with aname of a school on it amoung 1000s of others. its not rocket science, and I'm proabaly the dumbest guy in my class, but I the scam blogs worse nightmare a PT non trad learning disabled t2 grad wroking in enviormental law and making m oney doing it. :twisted:

rui
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby rui » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:20 am

Matthies wrote:no, stop, don't read thi crap


Instead of launching ad hominem attacks, I'd recommend you try reading the actual article and disputing the facts and numbers contained within.

Yes, these are mostly generalizations because that's ALL that anyone can go on right now. At the end of the day an individual's job prospects boil down to exactly that: the individual. What these blogs are promoting is information designed to help individuals figure out, GENERALLY, what their job prospects may be upon graduation, for various sectors.

For some of these sectors these prospects are not as rosy as they were a few years ago. It's a good idea to understand that.

Just because person A manages to land salary B upon graduation from school C does NOT mean that is the standard. So while it's certainly possible for individuals to make it out of the 200th ranked Law School and wind up in Big Law, that is by NO MEANS the rule. That person was an exception. Similarly everyone seems to "have a friend" who went to a T14 and can't find a job. Maybe that's because the person was disfigured or maybe it's because the market is crashing hardcore -- who knows. At the end of the day though there are % and those give a GENERAL idea of what a 0L's idea about LS should be.

Additional information never hurt anyone. Law School is by no means a golden ticket and I think that's what bloggers like the one above are trying to get across. Their motivations may be drawn out of a well of bitterness (OP may be included in this category), but it doesn't discount the information that they're presenting. Is it applicable to everyone? No. But I would suspect it is relevant to a fair number of posters on this site who are viewing LS as a golden parachute.

Additionally I think you're making a lot of the same sweeping generalizations that you accuse these blogs of making when you automatically dismiss them and say things like

but they are really amikign things worese by perpetuating aldready bad mthys that never applied to mosy law studnets anyway

rui
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby rui » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:28 am

ResolutePear wrote:
Would you go as far to say that there are T14 students who do not get jobs even within a year after employment? We have to remember that there are students who have never "experienced" the "real world". I can't speak for a law career, but I can as a person who hired recent grads in the IT field, and I'll try to keep it as general as possible:

Do you have tattoos? Piercings? Are your looks up to par with the position? Can you sell yourself? What have you done that sets you apart from another applicant? What softs do you have that can benefit the company? Projects? Internships? Are you wearing a tie(if you're a guy)? Are you asking for 2x the market rate? Do you seem like a person who will whine? Does your personality look like one that could eventually marry the job/company? How passionate are you?

If I had to translate it to "law career terms":

Do you have tattoos? Piercings? Are your looks up to par with the position? Can you sell yourself? What have you done that sets you apart from another applicant? What softs do you have that can benefit the company? Moot court? Law review? Clinics? Are you wearing a tie(if you're a guy)? Are you asking for 2x the market rate? Do you seem like a person who will whine? Does your personality look like one that could eventually marry the job/company? Do you have clientèle(excluded for entry-level)? How passionate are you? ARE YOU A PERSON THAT WILL BRING IN AN AMOUNT OF BILLABLE HOURS THAT WILL MAKE A NET PROFIT FOR MY COMPANY?

Of course, I'm just going on my own experience here and dangerously extrapolating to what I have read about firm expectations.

I would imagine that some people just don't have what it takes to be hire-able, even at a T14 at a OCI or within a year after graduation. I'm curious, are any of the people without a job the same people who have done law review, moot courts, and other extracurriculars?


Obviously I can't answer the questions with any degree of accuracy because I'm a 0L but you have to understand that "getting a job" is one thing and "getting a job that allows me to pay off the 150-200k I accrued in a relatively reasonable timeframe" are two COMPLETELY different things. If finances weren't a concern then I would say Law is for everyone who wants it, but it's part of the equation that people are sort of eliminating.

Also I think that most people on this site tend to underestimate the level of competition once in Law School. If there's a median, that means half the class is below it. A lot of posters are assuming they'll automatically be above it, but someone has to be below it, and it's foolish to cant think that 50% of the class already isn't as intelligent/prepared as you going into 1L. Good grades in LS are NOT automatic, regardless of your success (LSAT, UG GPA) to that point.

So while there are unhirearables, there are also going to be people who are TOTALLY qualified for a position but get muscled out by the competition. Fewer jobs = increased competition. These are all things that need to be thought of, and I get the sense that a lot of posters aren't doing it.

Am I saying don't go? NO. I'm saying look before you leap, that's all. Read everything and judge for yourself.

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Matthies
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Matthies » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:35 am

rui wrote:
Matthies wrote:no, stop, don't read thi crap


Instead of launching ad hominem attacks, I'd recommend you try reading the actual article and disputing the facts and numbers contained within.

Yes, these are mostly generalizations because that's ALL that anyone can go on right now. At the end of the day an individual's job prospects boil down to exactly that: the individual. What these blogs are promoting is information designed to help individuals figure out, GENERALLY, what their job prospects may be upon graduation, for various sectors.

For some of these sectors these prospects are not as rosy as they were a few years ago. It's a good idea to understand that.

Just because person A manages to land salary B upon graduation from school C does NOT mean that is the standard. So while it's certainly possible for individuals to make it out of the 200th ranked Law School and wind up in Big Law, that is by NO MEANS the rule. That person was an exception. Similarly everyone seems to "have a friend" who went to a T14 and can't find a job. Maybe that's because the person was disfigured or maybe it's because the market is crashing hardcore -- who knows. At the end of the day though there are % and those give a GENERAL idea of what a 0L's idea about LS should be.

Additional information never hurt anyone. Law School is by no means a golden ticket and I think that's what bloggers like the one above are trying to get across. Their motivations may be drawn out of a well of bitterness (OP may be included in this category), but it doesn't discount the information that they're presenting. Is it applicable to everyone? No. But I would suspect it is relevant to a fair number of posters on this site who are viewing LS as a golden parachute.

Additionally I think you're making a lot of the same sweeping generalizations that you accuse these blogs of making when you automatically dismiss them and say things like

but they are really amikign things worese by perpetuating aldready bad mthys that never applied to mosy law studnets anyway


Yea but the diffrence between them and me is, well, um , I'm working as a lawyer. But what are you not getting about the fact that most law stduenst have never found jobs through OCI, so why does shirnking summer SA classes affect most law stduents? Why do they keep focusing on things they never have, and never will apply to most people going to LS. Does that not seem, well a bit misgauided? Have you read some of the post fromt he blogs linked on that site? Future LS needs to know for most of them OCI won;'t work, but if you read TLS and the blogs that's all they talk about. No wonder they can't find work, cuasde how they looked for it is not how you get it.

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Matthies
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Matthies » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:42 am

rui wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Would you go as far to say that there are T14 students who do not get jobs even within a year after employment? We have to remember that there are students who have never "experienced" the "real world". I can't speak for a law career, but I can as a person who hired recent grads in the IT field, and I'll try to keep it as general as possible:

Do you have tattoos? Piercings? Are your looks up to par with the position? Can you sell yourself? What have you done that sets you apart from another applicant? What softs do you have that can benefit the company? Projects? Internships? Are you wearing a tie(if you're a guy)? Are you asking for 2x the market rate? Do you seem like a person who will whine? Does your personality look like one that could eventually marry the job/company? How passionate are you?

If I had to translate it to "law career terms":

Do you have tattoos? Piercings? Are your looks up to par with the position? Can you sell yourself? What have you done that sets you apart from another applicant? What softs do you have that can benefit the company? Moot court? Law review? Clinics? Are you wearing a tie(if you're a guy)? Are you asking for 2x the market rate? Do you seem like a person who will whine? Does your personality look like one that could eventually marry the job/company? Do you have clientèle(excluded for entry-level)? How passionate are you? ARE YOU A PERSON THAT WILL BRING IN AN AMOUNT OF BILLABLE HOURS THAT WILL MAKE A NET PROFIT FOR MY COMPANY?

Of course, I'm just going on my own experience here and dangerously extrapolating to what I have read about firm expectations.

I would imagine that some people just don't have what it takes to be hire-able, even at a T14 at a OCI or within a year after graduation. I'm curious, are any of the people without a job the same people who have done law review, moot courts, and other extracurriculars?


Obviously I can't answer the questions with any degree of accuracy because I'm a 0L but you have to understand that "getting a job" is one thing and "getting a job that allows me to pay off the 150-200k I accrued in a relatively reasonable timeframe" are two COMPLETELY different things. If finances weren't a concern then I would say Law is for everyone who wants it, but it's part of the equation that people are sort of eliminating.

Also I think that most people on this site tend to underestimate the level of competition once in Law School. If there's a median, that means half the class is below it. A lot of posters are assuming they'll automatically be above it, but someone has to be below it, and it's foolish to cant think that 50% of the class already isn't as intelligent/prepared as you going into 1L. Good grades in LS are NOT automatic, regardless of your success (LSAT, UG GPA) to that point.

So while there are unhirearables, there are also going to be people who are TOTALLY qualified for a position but get muscled out by the competition. Fewer jobs = increased competition. These are all things that need to be thought of, and I get the sense that a lot of posters aren't doing it.

Am I saying don't go? NO. I'm saying look before you leap, that's all. Read everything and judge for yourself.


People are elminating the equation of debt by choice, no one says you habve to go to LS right after UG, go fulltime or pay stciker to go to the highest ranked school you got into. There where about 100 or so people in my PT class, 70% or more worked fulltime and borrowed nothing. Debt, like anything else is chocie, but one you seem to think whose only asnwer is to borrow. I'm not sayinfg your worng, or trying to attck you here. I'm jsut tryimng to point out not everyone is cookie cutter and not everythign is the way the TLS or bloggers think it is when they are pre law, or even post law. There are options besuides the common wisdowm that seems to be not working very well these days.

rui
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby rui » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:54 am

Matthies wrote:Yea but the diffrence between them and me is, well, um , I'm working as a lawyer. But what are you not getting about the fact that most law stduenst have never found jobs through OCI, so why does shirnking summer SA classes affect most law stduents? Why do they keep focusing on things they never have, and never will apply to most people going to LS. Does that not seem, well a bit misgauided? Have you read some of the post fromt he blogs linked on that site? Future LS needs to know for most of them OCI won;'t work, but if you read TLS and the blogs that's all they talk about. No wonder they can't find work, cuasde how they looked for it is not how you get it.


I don't think providing information is ever misguided. Whether it is personally applicable to an individual is their decision to make (i.e. ATL and their biglaw numbers), but I believe that the more information you have out there the better idea a 0L can get about what the world of law actually entails. So just like I put stock in their info I put stock in you speaking to your own experience as a practicing lawyer (which is a very cool story, given all you've overcome). Just because some are speaking as failures and offering generalizations (numbers) that aren't necessarily applicable doesn't make them wrong. It's all valid information and none of it should be discounted.

And most people on here are talking about OCI because that's how most of the Big Law firms find their summer associates, and they're talking big law because they've got their eyes on the 160k starting salary, because that's what they're expecting after reading USNWR/ how they plan to handle the massive debt they're going to incur from going to a T14 at sticker (which is what I'd wager the majority of this forum would do if they could).

So TLS is a whole different beast.

I agree that it would be awesome if there were more resources about legal markets outside of big law so that individuals can make better decisions about practicing regionally, etc.

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BlueCivic
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby BlueCivic » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:55 am

Wait so did we answer the question of whether people should go to law school?

rui
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby rui » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:56 am

Matthies wrote: People are elminating the equation of debt by choice, no one says you habve to go to LS right after UG, go fulltime or pay stciker to go to the highest ranked school you got into. There where about 100 or so people in my PT class, 70% or more worked fulltime and borrowed nothing. Debt, like anything else is chocie, but one you seem to think whose only asnwer is to borrow. I'm not sayinfg your worng, or trying to attck you here. I'm jsut tryimng to point out not everyone is cookie cutter and not everythign is the way the TLS or bloggers think it is when they are pre law, or even post law. There are options besuides the common wisdowm that seems to be not working very well these days.


I completely agree with this, which is why I was supportive of OP's post to begin with -- even if I didn't entirely agree with his final conclusion or the way he presented himself, he was showing that the common TLS wisdom MAY be incorrect and I just think it's important for people to see that and judge for themselves. We're definitely on the same page here.

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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby rui » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:57 am

BlueCivic wrote:Wait so did we answer the question of whether people should go to law school?


We have. After much deliberation the answer is: maybe.

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BlueCivic
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby BlueCivic » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:58 am

rui wrote:
BlueCivic wrote:Wait so did we answer the question of whether people should go to law school?


We have. After much deliberation the answer is: maybe.


It would be most helpful to have a yes or no answer. I think yes, people should go to law school.

rui
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby rui » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:02 am

BlueCivic wrote:
rui wrote:
BlueCivic wrote:Wait so did we answer the question of whether people should go to law school?


We have. After much deliberation the answer is: maybe.


It would be most helpful to have a yes or no answer. I think yes, people should go to law school.


Yes, people should go to law school*

*provided they have conducted a fair amount of research into the matter and as a result have developed reasonable expectations of the ways in which attending law school will influence their future.

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BlueCivic
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby BlueCivic » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:03 am

rui wrote:
BlueCivic wrote:
rui wrote:
BlueCivic wrote:Wait so did we answer the question of whether people should go to law school?


We have. After much deliberation the answer is: maybe.


It would be most helpful to have a yes or no answer. I think yes, people should go to law school.


Yes, people should go to law school*

*provided they have conducted a fair amount of research into the matter and as a result have developed reasonable expectations of the ways in which attending law school will influence their future.


That sounds like a lot of work. I'm switching my answer to no, people should not go to law school.

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:07 am

rui wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Would you go as far to say that there are T14 students who do not get jobs even within a year after employment? We have to remember that there are students who have never "experienced" the "real world". I can't speak for a law career, but I can as a person who hired recent grads in the IT field, and I'll try to keep it as general as possible:

Do you have tattoos? Piercings? Are your looks up to par with the position? Can you sell yourself? What have you done that sets you apart from another applicant? What softs do you have that can benefit the company? Projects? Internships? Are you wearing a tie(if you're a guy)? Are you asking for 2x the market rate? Do you seem like a person who will whine? Does your personality look like one that could eventually marry the job/company? How passionate are you?

If I had to translate it to "law career terms":

Do you have tattoos? Piercings? Are your looks up to par with the position? Can you sell yourself? What have you done that sets you apart from another applicant? What softs do you have that can benefit the company? Moot court? Law review? Clinics? Are you wearing a tie(if you're a guy)? Are you asking for 2x the market rate? Do you seem like a person who will whine? Does your personality look like one that could eventually marry the job/company? Do you have clientèle(excluded for entry-level)? How passionate are you? ARE YOU A PERSON THAT WILL BRING IN AN AMOUNT OF BILLABLE HOURS THAT WILL MAKE A NET PROFIT FOR MY COMPANY?

Of course, I'm just going on my own experience here and dangerously extrapolating to what I have read about firm expectations.

I would imagine that some people just don't have what it takes to be hire-able, even at a T14 at a OCI or within a year after graduation. I'm curious, are any of the people without a job the same people who have done law review, moot courts, and other extracurriculars?


Obviously I can't answer the questions with any degree of accuracy because I'm a 0L but you have to understand that "getting a job" is one thing and "getting a job that allows me to pay off the 150-200k I accrued in a relatively reasonable timeframe" are two COMPLETELY different things. If finances weren't a concern then I would say Law is for everyone who wants it, but it's part of the equation that people are sort of eliminating.

Also I think that most people on this site tend to underestimate the level of competition once in Law School. If there's a median, that means half the class is below it. A lot of posters are assuming they'll automatically be above it, but someone has to be below it, and it's foolish to cant think that 50% of the class already isn't as intelligent/prepared as you going into 1L. Good grades in LS are NOT automatic, regardless of your success (LSAT, UG GPA) to that point.

So while there are unhirearables, there are also going to be people who are TOTALLY qualified for a position but get muscled out by the competition. Fewer jobs = increased competition. These are all things that need to be thought of, and I get the sense that a lot of posters aren't doing it.

Am I saying don't go? NO. I'm saying look before you leap, that's all. Read everything and judge for yourself.


Correctly so! Just like everything else in life that gives rewards - it's a competition. Like Rikki Bobby says, "If you're not first, you're last!".. haha, pardon that small digression for my amusement. Seriously speaking, I think what's happening is that in America everybody wants to be politically correct and everybody is still holding onto the "American Dream" where you can be whatever you want to be. No matter how much somebody fails at somebody, theres always a way to achieve the end result. There's always some type of scheme to get to where you want to be. Welp - if you're below median then you've done something wrong in relation to half of your peers. And it's true, somebody needs to be stuck in the bottom half; the point is to do WHATEVER it takes to be top-50%.

Personally, I'm planning to bust myself to get top 10%, and if I fall under top-30%, well.. chances are I'll just drop out and call it a day. Do something else with my life. There's nothing wrong with counting your losses than taking a crap JD from a crap school from a crap city from a crap state from a crap nation from a crap world from a crap universe... or is there? That's a choice.. full vs 1/3 and taking the 10-40k as a loss in a gamble.

It's the same way with business. There's a reason why many companies are where they're at; they work hard in a competitive market and take a gamble. For a recent example: Google vs Microsoft Bing. Think about that: Microsoft is seriously disadvantaged when it comes to search engine technology? Why did they even bother finance it?

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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby rui » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:27 am

ResolutePear wrote:the point is to do WHATEVER it takes to be top-50%.


This raises a theoretical question with possible real world implications: what if EVERYONE is doing whatever it takes? Some people still have to finish in that bottom 50... Drive isn't always enough. I think some TLS posters could stand to chew on that one for a bit.


ResolutePear wrote:Personally, I'm planning to bust myself to get top 10%, and if I fall under top-30%, well.. chances are I'll just drop out and call it a day. Do something else with my life. There's nothing wrong with counting your losses than taking a crap JD from a crap school from a crap city from a crap state from a crap nation from a crap world from a crap universe... or is there? That's a choice.. full vs 1/3 and taking the 10-40k as a loss in a gamble.


I'm glad you used that phrasing because that's exactly what I think people need to understand: Law School is an individual gamble. For absolutely everyone. Your odds increase or decrease based on certain factors and you can try to figure these odds out by doing research, but at the end of the day it's a gamble and gambling is not for everyone -- sometimes the house odds are just way too good and you're probably going to lose.

ResolutePear wrote:It's the same way with business. There's a reason why many companies are where they're at; they work hard in a competitive market and take a gamble. For a recent example: Google vs Microsoft Bing. Think about that: Microsoft is seriously disadvantaged when it comes to search engine technology? Why did they even bother finance it?


Well, they bothered because they thought they could make money at it (and they did, so it worked). However here's a gamble that completely blew up in their faces: they took on Mobile providers and got stomped http://techcrunch.com/2010/06/30/micros ... n-the-kin/). Microsoft has enough capital so that they can afford to take risks, but not everyone can. So going back to law school, some people just don't have the life-capital to effectively take the law school gamble.

I think we're pretty much all in agreement here.

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zeth006
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby zeth006 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:38 am

Matthies wrote:
rui wrote:
Matthies wrote:
rui wrote:Enrique - thank you for posting this. Truthfully. It's something I've done a lot of research into myself and if you've given even one person a second thought about whether LS is right for them, you've done a good thing.



Just curious, what reasearch have you done?


Reading everything I can get my hands on about placement out of different schools to figure out roughly where I stand in terms of landing the type of job that I want from my JD (looking to break into a relatively niche sector), as well as fallback options and alternatives should I not make it there. I've been able to grill currently practicing attorneys about the paths they've taken, their impressions of the market going forward and their thoughts on specific schools, as well as a few of my friends who made the jump directly to LS from undergrad.

edit not sure why sources make a difference but to humor you: I have friends at the following schools: Yale, USC, Georgetown and Stanford. I'm interested in those schools, and have also spoken to admissions folk at Berkeley and Harvard as they offer informational interviews. Grain of salt for what they have to say as well because they're obviously interested in your attendance.

Not listing the attorneys I'm speaking with because they're busy people and I don't need anyone sending them meme generator images (although I'll admit the "pretty lame" one quoting me made me chuckle). They work at some fairly large firms that I'm interested in joining. I'm too lazy to check where they are on the Vault list but I think they're up there.

In addition to the occasional relevant nugget posted on doomsday blogs (which must be taken with a grain of salt), ATL does a fairly good job about posting/interpreting legal market news, sometimes with interesting takes on NALP numbers. here's the last employment related article I remember reading, there are tons more: http://abovethelaw.com/2010/05/nalp-201 ... eneration/

Schools do a fairly ridiculous job of inflating their numbers and I think it's important that people at least be cognizant of that. I know I wasn't when I joined TLS. I am now. I am also not ruling out being dead broke and unemployed in 4 years time when I graduate, but given that I love law it's a risk I'm willing to take much like an aspiring musician or filmmaker.I am of the opinion that if you truly love law and want to go, you should, but you should enter into something prepared and with realistic expectations.

ETA: http://thelegaldollar.blogspot.com/2010 ... rt_15.html a general overview/ good read


(PS sorry fort he typos/,isspellings I have really bad dyslexia and my speech to text softare does not work in TLS chat box, so thsi is in my native ounge).

Given the schools you hope to attend you have done some relevant research, but its the standard "reasearch" ad really is not that predictive of individual results. A few things to consider, that while don't apply to you, apply to the vast magority of law stduenst who should NOT be cosulting the same scource you are:

70% of lawyers work in firms of 50 employees or less (check the ABA website, which is a good resource)

ATL is a gosspi blog and covers primarily NYC biglaw, where the vast magority of lawyers don't work. its no where near what the real profesion is like outside the magor markets or biglaw.

The scam blogs and posters on here talking about how hard is to find a job should be met with allmost unversial sketiscism unless then out themselves. They never do. neither do the folks hat riun the scam blogs. Theya re allmost allways the same genric BS top 14 school, top 20% LR no job or low paying job. Then when people like me or reasonable Man who went to lower ranked schools post abhout this shit and how we have jobswe are told we are the exception. Even though both of us have posted so many times what schools we went, what jobs we have, what grades we got and how we found those jobs. The doom and glooms won't even tell you wich of the "t-14" they went. What are they hiding if they are for real?

Of course me, RM, and my freind are all exceptions to rule becuase we have jobs, so they disount us and then sya stuf like "the vast magority of T2 grads don't have jobs" but don't give any specifica and of course never went to the schools or work int he markets they are experts in.

The vast magority of law stduenst will not find jobs fom OCI. The lower the ranking of the school the more likley this is, becuase wll only large emloyers tenbd to do OCI anyway. For most law stduenst they won't find jobs until AFTER they pass the bar abd get rsuklts ack, thats usually 6-9 months after graduation.

The NLJ stands for smiply one thing: the 250 largest law firms int he US, again see first point, most alwyers don't work at thes e firms and most LS won't get jobs there. So looking at them for anyone outside thw t14 (or even isnide now) as any indicator of legal hring for a school in that class is not undertsanding how he legal markest works.

I could go on. Best resources for information on the legal market: people who have actually gotten jobs, espcially thsoe hwo got them w/o the help of the school. TThe ocla bar assoction in the city you want to work in. people who work where you want to work (be leary of folks with less than 4 years, they tend to be cleless as as law steudnets). There are others, but pretty basci rule is if some person, website or poster traies o predct an individual's rulets based on some published "stats" that's a pretty big sing then really have no clue how leagl hiring really works outside of OCI and T14, where again most stduenst don't dgo.

Finally and my favoirt myth, if the economy is so bad that t14 schools can't get half there grads jobs then it must be killing t2 and below grads. Again this comes from a misunderatding of how legal hiring workls. For the past decade t14 grads have mostly gotten jobs from OCI, that has certaily dreid up.

But this has never woked at t2 or below schools, most did not get jobs this way even before ITE. Those that mistakenly thought that is how it worked tended to be the ones that hard the hardest time finding jobs. Those that smatneduyp and started lsitening to ceare experts and lcoal knowladge people realized they had to find jobs other ways. This is how its allways been. yes ITE has hurt lower ranked schools, but not near as much ad pople think, i.e. OCI is down 75% so it must be much worse at local T3 school. the thing is OCI was likley enevr more than 10% EVER at these schools int he first place.

Anyway, keep up the reasearch. I know the scam bloggers and the ayymous posters really think they are doing folks some good by posting doom and gloom, but they are really amikign things worese by perpetuating aldready bad mthys that never applied to mosy law studnets anyway. If they spent half as much time actaully lookign for a job other than want ads, mass mailing and caigslist as they do trying to blame everyone else for them not having a job, its likely they would have a job.

Good luck with your searchm and i agree wif your really want it bad enough you will make it work. if you just expect it to work becuase you went to school X then you will be likley joining the scam blog/ATL crowd in 3 years. Don't let that happen.



Matthies, bravo and well said. We've all seen enough of these TLS threads that are some variation of the "We T14'ers got fucked on OCI with top250 firms, therefore you non-T14'ers are fucked for life with job prospects. Stay out because I know what's best for you!" rhetoric.

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PDaddy
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby PDaddy » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:43 am

Sauer Grapes wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:
Sauer Grapes wrote:Do you mind sharing your specific school? It's not like that would out you.


Absolutely not.

Well, if you absolutely don't mind, then...?


This! You guys are being taken for a ride. As far as I can see, OP hasn't told what school he went to, though I refuse to read any more than the first two pages. Besides, everyone has heard all of this shyt before.

There's risk in everything we do. If we all decided to get MBA's right now, there would be depressed salaries and less "guarantee" of corporate marketing, management, finance, etc jobs. If we all decided to work on Wall Street for a few years without MBA's, how many of us would even get our feet in the door? The job market wouldn't be too friendly.

You know? I have pondered one question since all of this began for me: what if the typical law student of "today" is better equipped...more qualified for the profession than those of the past? That would mean that there were more people in the bottom percentiles who would still be worthy candidates for the profession because they could outperform many attorneys from previous generations, despite the relative lack of academic success.

As many have stated throughout this thread, there are grading curves that mandate half of a class doing worse than its other half. Does that mean that those students who grade into the lower half are not qualified? I think not. And it may or may not mean that they are less prepared than their peers (speaking in strict academic terms). But law school is not real law practice.

I realize that these suppositions do not speak to market demands for labor. But, for some people, leaving the profession because they do not "grade" into jobs may also be a mistake. The profession is about hustle above all else.

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Unitas
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Unitas » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:24 am

People without avatars bother me.

Happy note, happy July Fourth.

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john titor
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby john titor » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:46 am

I finished just below median at UGA, graduated with 90k in total debt, and now I make 50k.



I live with my parents.

chrisokc
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby chrisokc » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:29 am

The "can't find a good job" posters come onto this site to preach to those who haven't researched their decision to go to law school. However, the fact that all of us are on TLS indicates that we have at least taken some initiative to attempt to predict our future career prospects.

That's why the posts are so annoying. Most of us are very familiar with the doom and gloom theories. We are still choosing to go to law school. Future 1Ls who aren't researching their career prospects are difficult to reach simply because they are not looking for the information. The system works well for those of us who are informed. I am hoping the majority of my class hasn't done research on the importance of strategy and grades.

It seems reasonable to believe that more than half of TLS regulars may be in the top 20-30% at their respective schools. I say keep the doom/gloom to the doom/gloom sites. Those folks are eager to wallow in self pity and negativity. Most of us on this site are comfortable with our decisions for one reason or another. If we fail, so be it. But don't expect the negative threads to be embraced. It's old news.

Also remember, OP says "I'm actually of moderate weight (more thin than fat) and dress well." More thin than fat. Consider the type of person who would use that phrase to describe himself.

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gwuorbust
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby gwuorbust » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:59 am

chrisokc wrote: The system works well for those of us who are informed. I am hoping the majority of my class hasn't done research on the importance of strategy and grades.

It seems reasonable to believe that more than half of TLS regulars may be in the top 20-30% at their respective schools. I say keep the doom/gloom to the doom/gloom sites. Those folks are eager to wallow in self pity and negativity. Most of us on this site are comfortable with our decisions for one reason or another. If we fail, so be it. But don't expect the negative threads to be embraced. It's old news.


this. I couldn't believe how uninformed many of the 0L students at the admitted students weekends I went to were. from how the loan process works, choosing a school, the admissions process, etc. I feel like this uninformed group is going to have a much steeper learning at LS while those of use who know this shit backwards and forwards will be able to jump right in.

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:36 pm

john titor wrote:I finished just below median at UGA, graduated with 90k in total debt, and now I make 50k.



I live with my parents.


By choice? Or to make the ramen noodle stage more livable due to loans?

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john titor
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby john titor » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:53 pm

i'd rather be living somewhere else, but my loan payments are around 1000/month, so after loans and taxes I only make around 26k/year, which is not really enough for me to pay rent and the rest of my bills.

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gwuorbust
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby gwuorbust » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:56 pm

john titor wrote:i'd rather be living somewhere else, but my loan payments are around 1000/month, so after loans and taxes I only make around 26k/year, which is not really enough for me to pay rent and the rest of my bills.


how did you look for a job? and what are you doing to improve your position right now?

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john titor
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby john titor » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:02 pm

I resume-bombed firms, searched the requisite job sites, got 2 OCI interviews (no offer). I got my current job by exploiting a personal connection, basically.

to answer your other question, I'm going to ask for a raise in august. ive got my eye out for other job opportunities, but I havent found anything that I could get that pays more than 50. I like the geographic area where I work, though, so I'm basically just thanking my lucky stars that I get to work here at all. "entry-level" associate jobs just dont exist in my county, unless theyre grandfathered in like I was.




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