I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:51 am

General Tso wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:Read up on the Law School Transparency Project, the crisis in small law, the decimation of BigLaw associate classes. You can find it all on Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and the following blogs: Above the Law, Big Debt Small Law, Third Tier Reality, First Tier Toilet, Law School Scam, Shilling Me Softly, But I Did Everything Right, and Scammed Hard.


I feel like nobody on TLS can spot a flame anymore. So OP turned out just fine, went to a T14, has a job and everything, yet he is intimately familiar with all of the disgruntled Seton Hall grad sites?

Not saying OP is incorrect, just pointing out that he is most likely lying about who he is and what his credentials are.


Agreed. He could of just as well posted his school and have nothing adverse happen. People bash schools all the time and you don't have these schools shutting down.

I call shenanigans.

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TCScrutinizer
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby TCScrutinizer » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:01 am

splittsville wrote:So a quick anecdote to get the OPs advice on whether I should go to law school:

Last night I was working at my current position, which is overnight remodeling of fast food restaurants. I found myself at 3AM, with my head an inch from the urinal, jack hammering away at some piss/shit soaked tile that just wouldn't come up. In a moment of introspection and self analysis, I thought to myself "I would pay at least $150,000 to get out of this literal shithole, if only for three years."

Will you give me permission to go to law school? I promise to go right back to jack hammering nasty tile if I am forced to make only $50,000... during the day... in an office.


Are you my alt?

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:02 am

TCScrutinizer wrote:
splittsville wrote:So a quick anecdote to get the OPs advice on whether I should go to law school:

Last night I was working at my current position, which is overnight remodeling of fast food restaurants. I found myself at 3AM, with my head an inch from the urinal, jack hammering away at some piss/shit soaked tile that just wouldn't come up. In a moment of introspection and self analysis, I thought to myself "I would pay at least $150,000 to get out of this literal shithole, if only for three years."

Will you give me permission to go to law school? I promise to go right back to jack hammering nasty tile if I am forced to make only $50,000... during the day... in an office.


Are you my alt?


Huddy has alts?

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TCScrutinizer
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby TCScrutinizer » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:05 am

ResolutePear wrote:
TCScrutinizer wrote:
splittsville wrote:So a quick anecdote to get the OPs advice on whether I should go to law school:

Last night I was working at my current position, which is overnight remodeling of fast food restaurants. I found myself at 3AM, with my head an inch from the urinal, jack hammering away at some piss/shit soaked tile that just wouldn't come up. In a moment of introspection and self analysis, I thought to myself "I would pay at least $150,000 to get out of this literal shithole, if only for three years."

Will you give me permission to go to law school? I promise to go right back to jack hammering nasty tile if I am forced to make only $50,000... during the day... in an office.


Are you my alt?


Huddy has alts?


Apparently underpaid construction worker encountering feces/urine on a near daily basis has an alt.

On Tuesday night at my job I took a shower in rat shit. I can't wait to be in debt for the rest of my life.

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:10 am

TCScrutinizer wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
TCScrutinizer wrote:
splittsville wrote:So a quick anecdote to get the OPs advice on whether I should go to law school:

Last night I was working at my current position, which is overnight remodeling of fast food restaurants. I found myself at 3AM, with my head an inch from the urinal, jack hammering away at some piss/shit soaked tile that just wouldn't come up. In a moment of introspection and self analysis, I thought to myself "I would pay at least $150,000 to get out of this literal shithole, if only for three years."

Will you give me permission to go to law school? I promise to go right back to jack hammering nasty tile if I am forced to make only $50,000... during the day... in an office.


Are you my alt?


Huddy has alts?


Apparently underpaid construction worker encountering feces/urine on a near daily basis has an alt.

On Tuesday night at my job I took a shower in rat shit. I can't wait to be in debt for the rest of my life.


I hear you on that. There are way worse jobs than sitting in business casual clothes proofreading documents for 50-60 billable hours a week.

keg411
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby keg411 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:10 am

OP, since you came back, can you answer my q's, please?

keg411 wrote:Am I the only one that would be happy with a 50k and no debt? That sounds like a pretty sweet situation post-any school.

OP, if you come back, I have some serious questions for you (please don't tell me about your classmates. I'm sure they are hurting):
1) What did you do your 1L summer? Did you enjoy that work?
2) Did you get a job 2L summer through OCI?
3) If you did, did you get an offer there?
4) If you did not, what did you do your 2L summer? Did you like it? Did you get an offer through that job?
5) If you got your job through the "none of the above" route, how did you get it?
6) Why are you so disillusioned with the work if you have not started practicing? Did you not like anything you did during the summer?
7) If you hated both of your summer jobs and all of the work you have done so far - did you consider trying to get a non-legal job that might make you happier?
8 ) If you liked the work, why are you upset? Did you want $160k? Or are you just so selfless that you care more about your classmates than yourself and you are cool with your job but are sad about your unemployed friends?

I'm really curious about this information and will not criticize you for it. You can even PM me if you want. I've asked a few people that have posted these types of things and no one ever responded to me :(.


Also, to get back on-topic ;):
--ImageRemoved--

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TUP
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby TUP » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:16 am

Ty Webb wrote:
TUP wrote:Where's the Cliff Lee love? You take Felix over him earlier and now this?


Rule #2: Never trust a man with an arm that's logged close to 500 innings in 2 seasons. It's bound to fall off sooner rather than later.

Plus, Jon Lester beat cancer. Fuck you cancer.


He got his rest in April. Here's to hoping the Twins make a deal for him soon.

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:16 am

ResolutePear wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:There are people who come here to hear what law school's all about. You can post about baseball elsewhere. Be considerate.


I think they can check out my video on this thread and stay up to date that way.

http://www.youtube.com/v/iO1LrEXhHV4

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stratocophic
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby stratocophic » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:17 am

keg411 wrote:OP, since you came back, can you answer my q's, please?

keg411 wrote:Am I the only one that would be happy with a 50k and no debt? That sounds like a pretty sweet situation post-any school.

OP, if you come back, I have some serious questions for you (please don't tell me about your classmates. I'm sure they are hurting):
1) What did you do your 1L summer? Did you enjoy that work?
2) Did you get a job 2L summer through OCI?
3) If you did, did you get an offer there?
4) If you did not, what did you do your 2L summer? Did you like it? Did you get an offer through that job?
5) If you got your job through the "none of the above" route, how did you get it?
6) Why are you so disillusioned with the work if you have not started practicing? Did you not like anything you did during the summer?
7) If you hated both of your summer jobs and all of the work you have done so far - did you consider trying to get a non-legal job that might make you happier?
8 ) If you liked the work, why are you upset? Did you want $160k? Or are you just so selfless that you care more about your classmates than yourself and you are cool with your job but are sad about your unemployed friends?

I'm really curious about this information and will not criticize you for it. You can even PM me if you want. I've asked a few people that have posted these types of things and no one ever responded to me :(.


Also, to get back on-topic ;):
--ImageRemoved--
Phil Hughes is always credited.

chrisokc
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby chrisokc » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:30 am

TUP wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:
TUP wrote:Where's the Cliff Lee love? You take Felix over him earlier and now this?


Rule #2: Never trust a man with an arm that's logged close to 500 innings in 2 seasons. It's bound to fall off sooner rather than later.

Plus, Jon Lester beat cancer. Fuck you cancer.


He got his rest in April. Here's to hoping the Twins make a deal for him soon.

Tup, that's the best avatar I've ever seen. "You got one dog looking this way, one dog looking that way. And this guys saying, 'what do you want from me?'"

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:51 pm

TUP wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:
TUP wrote:Where's the Cliff Lee love? You take Felix over him earlier and now this?


Rule #2: Never trust a man with an arm that's logged close to 500 innings in 2 seasons. It's bound to fall off sooner rather than later.

Plus, Jon Lester beat cancer. Fuck you cancer.


He got his rest in April. Here's to hoping the Twins make a deal for him soon.

A TLS baseball soulmate! AWESOME!!!!!!!! :D

ajmanyjah
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ajmanyjah » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:00 pm

OP is trying to thin out the application pool for the T7-14 schools he is applying to.

bigben
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby bigben » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:06 pm

Can someone please summarize this thread.

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:09 pm

http://www.youtube.com/v/iO1LrEXhHV4

I made a video for summarization purposes. Truth.

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kalvano
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby kalvano » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:44 pm

bigben wrote:Can someone please summarize this thread.



Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

rui
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby rui » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:58 pm

Enrique - thank you for posting this. Truthfully. It's something I've done a lot of research into myself and if you've given even one person a second thought about whether LS is right for them, you've done a good thing.

To the guys who derailed this thread OT with personal attacks and baseball conversations - you're the internet equivalent of playground bullies. Pretty lame.

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:07 am

--ImageRemoved--

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DoubleChecks
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:15 am

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Matthies
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Matthies » Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:18 am

rui wrote:Enrique - thank you for posting this. Truthfully. It's something I've done a lot of research into myself and if you've given even one person a second thought about whether LS is right for them, you've done a good thing.



Just curious, what reasearch have you done?

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:24 am

Matthies wrote:
rui wrote:Enrique - thank you for posting this. Truthfully. It's something I've done a lot of research into myself and if you've given even one person a second thought about whether LS is right for them, you've done a good thing.



Just curious, what reasearch have you done?


Also link sources please.

No cooley.edu cop-outs either!

rui
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby rui » Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:57 am

Matthies wrote:
rui wrote:Enrique - thank you for posting this. Truthfully. It's something I've done a lot of research into myself and if you've given even one person a second thought about whether LS is right for them, you've done a good thing.



Just curious, what reasearch have you done?


Reading everything I can get my hands on about placement out of different schools to figure out roughly where I stand in terms of landing the type of job that I want from my JD (looking to break into a relatively niche sector), as well as fallback options and alternatives should I not make it there. I've been able to grill currently practicing attorneys about the paths they've taken, their impressions of the market going forward and their thoughts on specific schools, as well as a few of my friends who made the jump directly to LS from undergrad.

edit not sure why sources make a difference but to humor you: I have friends at the following schools: Yale, USC, Georgetown and Stanford. I'm interested in those schools, and have also spoken to admissions folk at Berkeley and Harvard as they offer informational interviews. Grain of salt for what they have to say as well because they're obviously interested in your attendance.

Not listing the attorneys I'm speaking with because they're busy people and I don't need anyone sending them meme generator images (although I'll admit the "pretty lame" one quoting me made me chuckle). They work at some fairly large firms that I'm interested in joining. I'm too lazy to check where they are on the Vault list but I think they're up there.

In addition to the occasional relevant nugget posted on doomsday blogs (which must be taken with a grain of salt), ATL does a fairly good job about posting/interpreting legal market news, sometimes with interesting takes on NALP numbers. here's the last employment related article I remember reading, there are tons more: http://abovethelaw.com/2010/05/nalp-201 ... eneration/

Schools do a fairly ridiculous job of inflating their numbers and I think it's important that people at least be cognizant of that. I know I wasn't when I joined TLS. I am now. I am also not ruling out being dead broke and unemployed in 4 years time when I graduate, but given that I love law it's a risk I'm willing to take much like an aspiring musician or filmmaker.I am of the opinion that if you truly love law and want to go, you should, but you should enter into something prepared and with realistic expectations.

ETA: http://thelegaldollar.blogspot.com/2010 ... rt_15.html a general overview/ good read
Last edited by rui on Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ResolutePear
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:16 am

rui wrote:
Matthies wrote:
rui wrote:Enrique - thank you for posting this. Truthfully. It's something I've done a lot of research into myself and if you've given even one person a second thought about whether LS is right for them, you've done a good thing.



Just curious, what reasearch have you done?


Reading everything I can get my hands on about placement out of different schools to figure out roughly where I stand in terms of landing the type of job that I want from my JD (looking to break into a relatively niche sector), as well as fallback options and alternatives should I not make it there. I've been able to grill currently practicing attorneys about the paths they've taken, their impressions of the market going forward and their thoughts on specific schools, as well as a few of my friends who made the jump directly to LS from undergrad.

edit not sure why sources make a difference but to humor you: I have friends at the following schools: Yale, USC, Georgetown and Stanford. I'm interested in those schools, and have also spoken to admissions folk at Berkeley and Harvard as they offer informational interviews. Grain of salt for what they have to say as well because they're obviously interested in your attendance.

Not listing the attorneys I'm speaking with because they're busy people and I don't need anyone sending them meme generator images (although I'll admit the "pretty lame" one quoting me made me chuckle). They work at some fairly large firms that I'm interested in joining. I'm too lazy to check where they are on the Vault list but I think they're up there.

In addition to the occasional relevant nugget posted on doomsday blogs (which must be taken with a grain of salt), ATL does a fairly good job about posting/interpreting legal market news, sometimes with interesting takes on NALP numbers. here's the last employment related article I remember reading, there are tons more: http://abovethelaw.com/2010/05/nalp-201 ... eneration/

Schools do a fairly ridiculous job of inflating their numbers and I think it's important that people at least be cognizant of that. I know I wasn't when I joined TLS. I am now. I am also not ruling out being dead broke and unemployed in 4 years time when I graduate, but given that I love law it's a risk I'm willing to take much like an aspiring musician or filmmaker.I am of the opinion that if you truly love law and want to go, you should, but you should enter into something prepared and with realistic expectations.


Maybe I'm just thinking like an endowed douchebag here, but - if they were interested in attendance, wouldn't they offer a financial aid package? And even having to attend Yale full-price, don't you think there is something beyond the law school's control as to why you're not competitive in the market with the best credentials possible for any entry-level law office position?

I agree with other people when they say: you can be the best law school student - ever, but if you're an anti-social jerk walking into an interview with sneakers, jeans, and a wrinkled t-shirt... I think chances are slim as far as your success goes. Unless you're House. And there's already a House on this forum.

rui
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby rui » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:27 am

ResolutePear wrote:Maybe I'm just thinking like an endowed douchebag here, but - if they were interested in attendance, wouldn't they offer a financial aid package? And even having to attend Yale full-price, don't you think there is something beyond the law school's control as to why you're not competitive in the market with the best credentials possible for any entry-level law office position?

I agree with other people when they say: you can be the best law school student - ever, but if you're an anti-social jerk walking into an interview with sneakers, jeans, and a wrinkled t-shirt... I think chances are slim as far as your success goes. Unless you're House. And there's already a House on this forum.


Law Schools are not in the business of selling themselves short so you shouldn't 100% trust the answers you get from a school rep. See: Duke and the "100% employed at graduation" reference in the link above.

When I said interested in your attendance, I was implying that they were interested in the majority of students' applications to either 1) reject for USNWR selectivity purposes or 2) accept at sticker. There is a small subset of individuals who are desired and get money packages, but those aren't really the people we're talking about (Yale with $$$ is a no brainer for 99% of the people on this forum -- that's not the issue).

As for people with interview problems or shortcomings that's all true, but you absolutely can't believe that these are the only people who aren't getting employed out of school. Reposting this link that I just added to my original post:

http://thelegaldollar.blogspot.com/2010 ... rt_15.html

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Matthies
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Matthies » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:32 am

rui wrote:
Matthies wrote:
rui wrote:Enrique - thank you for posting this. Truthfully. It's something I've done a lot of research into myself and if you've given even one person a second thought about whether LS is right for them, you've done a good thing.



Just curious, what reasearch have you done?


Reading everything I can get my hands on about placement out of different schools to figure out roughly where I stand in terms of landing the type of job that I want from my JD (looking to break into a relatively niche sector), as well as fallback options and alternatives should I not make it there. I've been able to grill currently practicing attorneys about the paths they've taken, their impressions of the market going forward and their thoughts on specific schools, as well as a few of my friends who made the jump directly to LS from undergrad.

edit not sure why sources make a difference but to humor you: I have friends at the following schools: Yale, USC, Georgetown and Stanford. I'm interested in those schools, and have also spoken to admissions folk at Berkeley and Harvard as they offer informational interviews. Grain of salt for what they have to say as well because they're obviously interested in your attendance.

Not listing the attorneys I'm speaking with because they're busy people and I don't need anyone sending them meme generator images (although I'll admit the "pretty lame" one quoting me made me chuckle). They work at some fairly large firms that I'm interested in joining. I'm too lazy to check where they are on the Vault list but I think they're up there.

In addition to the occasional relevant nugget posted on doomsday blogs (which must be taken with a grain of salt), ATL does a fairly good job about posting/interpreting legal market news, sometimes with interesting takes on NALP numbers. here's the last employment related article I remember reading, there are tons more: http://abovethelaw.com/2010/05/nalp-201 ... eneration/

Schools do a fairly ridiculous job of inflating their numbers and I think it's important that people at least be cognizant of that. I know I wasn't when I joined TLS. I am now. I am also not ruling out being dead broke and unemployed in 4 years time when I graduate, but given that I love law it's a risk I'm willing to take much like an aspiring musician or filmmaker.I am of the opinion that if you truly love law and want to go, you should, but you should enter into something prepared and with realistic expectations.

ETA: http://thelegaldollar.blogspot.com/2010 ... rt_15.html a general overview/ good read


(PS sorry fort he typos/,isspellings I have really bad dyslexia and my speech to text softare does not work in TLS chat box, so thsi is in my native ounge).

Given the schools you hope to attend you have done some relevant research, but its the standard "reasearch" ad really is not that predictive of individual results. A few things to consider, that while don't apply to you, apply to the vast magority of law stduenst who should NOT be cosulting the same scource you are:

70% of lawyers work in firms of 50 employees or less (check the ABA website, which is a good resource)

ATL is a gosspi blog and covers primarily NYC biglaw, where the vast magority of lawyers don't work. its no where near what the real profesion is like outside the magor markets or biglaw.

The scam blogs and posters on here talking about how hard is to find a job should be met with allmost unversial sketiscism unless then out themselves. They never do. neither do the folks hat riun the scam blogs. Theya re allmost allways the same genric BS top 14 school, top 20% LR no job or low paying job. Then when people like me or reasonable Man who went to lower ranked schools post abhout this shit and how we have jobswe are told we are the exception. Even though both of us have posted so many times what schools we went, what jobs we have, what grades we got and how we found those jobs. The doom and glooms won't even tell you wich of the "t-14" they went. What are they hiding if they are for real?

Of course me, RM, and my freind are all exceptions to rule becuase we have jobs, so they disount us and then sya stuf like "the vast magority of T2 grads don't have jobs" but don't give any specifica and of course never went to the schools or work int he markets they are experts in.

The vast magority of law stduenst will not find jobs fom OCI. The lower the ranking of the school the more likley this is, becuase wll only large emloyers tenbd to do OCI anyway. For most law stduenst they won't find jobs until AFTER they pass the bar abd get rsuklts ack, thats usually 6-9 months after graduation.

The NLJ stands for smiply one thing: the 250 largest law firms int he US, again see first point, most alwyers don't work at thes e firms and most LS won't get jobs there. So looking at them for anyone outside thw t14 (or even isnide now) as any indicator of legal hring for a school in that class is not undertsanding how he legal markest works.

I could go on. Best resources for information on the legal market: people who have actually gotten jobs, espcially thsoe hwo got them w/o the help of the school. TThe ocla bar assoction in the city you want to work in. people who work where you want to work (be leary of folks with less than 4 years, they tend to be cleless as as law steudnets). There are others, but pretty basci rule is if some person, website or poster traies o predct an individual's rulets based on some published "stats" that's a pretty big sing then really have no clue how leagl hiring really works outside of OCI and T14, where again most stduenst don't dgo.

Finally and my favoirt myth, if the economy is so bad that t14 schools can't get half there grads jobs then it must be killing t2 and below grads. Again this comes from a misunderatding of how legal hiring workls. For the past decade t14 grads have mostly gotten jobs from OCI, that has certaily dreid up.

But this has never woked at t2 or below schools, most did not get jobs this way even before ITE. Those that mistakenly thought that is how it worked tended to be the ones that hard the hardest time finding jobs. Those that smatneduyp and started lsitening to ceare experts and lcoal knowladge people realized they had to find jobs other ways. This is how its allways been. yes ITE has hurt lower ranked schools, but not near as much ad pople think, i.e. OCI is down 75% so it must be much worse at local T3 school. the thing is OCI was likley enevr more than 10% EVER at these schools int he first place.

Anyway, keep up the reasearch. I know the scam bloggers and the ayymous posters really think they are doing folks some good by posting doom and gloom, but they are really amikign things worese by perpetuating aldready bad mthys that never applied to mosy law studnets anyway. If they spent half as much time actaully lookign for a job other than want ads, mass mailing and caigslist as they do trying to blame everyone else for them not having a job, its likely they would have a job.

Good luck with your searchm and i agree wif your really want it bad enough you will make it work. if you just expect it to work becuase you went to school X then you will be likley joining the scam blog/ATL crowd in 3 years. Don't let that happen.

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Matthies
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Matthies » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:40 am

rui wrote:http://thelegaldollar.blogspot.com/2010/01/beginning-prospective-law-students-part_15.html


no, stop, don't read thi crap, anyone wo A makes a blog titleted "But I did everythign right" about not geting a legal job should be a big huge sing that they don't know what they are talking about, becuase they did not do it right. The other blogs he follows. Like law school messing with thier employment numbers, these scam blogers have an angle, and its not to save you fro thier mistakes but to raltionalize the fact that they don't/can't/suck at the law. There are lawyers wout there who publish blogs who do have jobs as lawyers and don't blame the school for getting them jobs. Call me crazy, but I'm not going to take money managment advice from some guy who went banruckput twice, so i likley won't take law job fidning advcie from someome who can't find one years after graduation.




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