I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

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Bildungsroman
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Bildungsroman » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:16 pm

Fuck, you suck at quoting so bad.

Why would people accept an explanation of "I don't suck, it's the market's fault!" from someone who can't figure out how to work an internet message board?
Last edited by Bildungsroman on Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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truffleshuffle
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby truffleshuffle » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:16 pm

Unitas wrote:Still thinking Cornell, possibly Duke given how strong the douche is with this one.

--ImageRemoved--

EnriqueL
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby EnriqueL » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:17 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:
Georgetown (edit: what my buddies call "GeorgeTTTown")?! Hardly a T14, and that figure sounds like a complete fabrication.

What source are you using?


lol. If you had checked out the link I posted, you would see that my source is the National Law Journal (of NLJ 250 fame).

Also, counting fail.



First: the numbers are 2009.
Second: they are not accurate.

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kalvano
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby kalvano » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:18 pm

EnriqueL wrote:First: the numbers are 2009.



How can they possibly have 2010 numbers?

czelede
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby czelede » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:18 pm

.
Last edited by czelede on Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jas
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Jas » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:18 pm

There are several things going on here:

1) Enrique has made the claim that his school's true employment numbers are unavailable to the public, and woefully inadequate compared to the published figures.

I don't think anyone on this board is surprised by this, from ANY school. Which is why we are constantly in search of information - real information, not fear-mongering - about how difficult the job market is.

2) He also claims that law is more boring than a finance job, which he admits he doesn't know much about.

This is obviously nonsense. What's boring for one person can be infinitely interesting to another, so he can only properly maintain that law is more boring TO HIM, except that he can't know that, since he has not worked in finance.

3) He says that applying to law school is lunacy, and that Yale is pretty much the only viable option, and also not one to get excited about.

Okay, well, the basis for this point seems to come mainly from 1) and 2).

2) is just nonsense, again, and knowing 1), as most of us do, has not led us to conclude 3). So, in a round-about way, it seems that Enrique's real contribution here is to the lurkers, and it is what many have said in a much more straightforward and non-sensational way: that you cannot take schools' published employment statistics at face value.

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98234872348
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby 98234872348 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:18 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:
If you include deferrals (which might not translate into jobs because the firms can pull back), then I would say between 10 and 20%, not more. It could be 25%, but that would definitely be a surprise.


http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20schools_charts_page12.pdf
Yale, the lowest T14 in terms of BigLaw placement, had 35% of its graduating class hired as NLJ associates last year.

While this chart is useful to disprove OPs point, it might not be useful in the current economy. All of these people did OCI in 2007, before the economic downturn. In addition, this doesn't account for deferrals (or no offers?). Finally, many firms cut their summer associate programs in half in 2009, and have again in 2010 (if not by more than half, or eliminated them all-together). Granted, this may disproportionately affect lower ranked schools and leave the T14 unaffected, but I doubt that theory will prove entirely true. Next year, when the grads that OCIed in 2008 are tallied, we will have a more realistic picture of just how dramatically the economic downturn has affected the hiring of new graduates from top schools.

EnriqueL
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby EnriqueL » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:19 pm

kalvano wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:First: the numbers are 2009.



How can they possibly have 2010 numbers?


The guy was disputing my 2010 estimates.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Bildungsroman » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:19 pm

EnriqueL wrote:First: the numbers are 2009.

Bildungsroman wrote:Yale, the lowest T14 in terms of BigLaw placement, had 35% of its graduating class hired as NLJ associates last year.

RC fail

EnriqueL wrote:Second: they are not accurate.

So, when non-anecdotal evidence shows you to be incorrect, then the evidence must be wrong!

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D. H2Oman
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby D. H2Oman » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:20 pm

Trying to figure out what I should have for lunch :? Tough call.

czelede
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby czelede » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:21 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:First: the numbers are 2009.

Bildungsroman wrote:Yale, the lowest T14 in terms of BigLaw placement, had 35% of its graduating class hired as NLJ associates last year.

RC fail

EnriqueL wrote:Second: they are not accurate.

So, when non-anecdotal evidence shows you to be incorrect, then the evidence must be wrong!


I think its time to give this argument up. OP clearly needs smarter/more successful friends to base his "evidence" on.

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bk1
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby bk1 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:21 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:Trying to figure out what I should have for lunch :? Tough call.


I need this question answered as well. Following thread more closely.

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Unitas
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Unitas » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:21 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:Trying to figure out what I should have for lunch :? Tough call.



I had rice pudding. For added flavor I sprinkled in some cinnamon. Highly recommended with a cost of only 30 cents.
Last edited by Unitas on Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

EnriqueL
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby EnriqueL » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:22 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:First: the numbers are 2009.

Bildungsroman wrote:Yale, the lowest T14 in terms of BigLaw placement, had 35% of its graduating class hired as NLJ associates last year.

RC fail

EnriqueL wrote:Second: they are not accurate.

So, when non-anecdotal evidence shows you to be incorrect, then the evidence must be wrong!


Whatever dude. I've paid my cash, did my three years, and found a job. If you want to act like a smart-alec in front of me because it impresses your fellow 0Ls, then keep it up. You're the one with your money and your career on the line.

If you come out three years later with a temp job and no prospects for advancement and $100,000 in loans to pay back, you'll have only yourself to blame.

EnriqueL
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby EnriqueL » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:24 pm

czelede wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:First: the numbers are 2009.

Bildungsroman wrote:Yale, the lowest T14 in terms of BigLaw placement, had 35% of its graduating class hired as NLJ associates last year.

RC fail

EnriqueL wrote:Second: they are not accurate.

So, when non-anecdotal evidence shows you to be incorrect, then the evidence must be wrong!


I think its time to give this argument up. OP clearly needs smarter/more successful friends to base his "evidence" on.





It's really laughable that you think that GeorgeTTTown has anywhere near 40% placement. My school certainly did not. Keep believing the numbers. In fact, I'm hoping that you do go to law school. I just hope that the modest ones who actually listen decide not to go.

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sundance95
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby sundance95 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:24 pm

ITT:
Image

Jas
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Jas » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:25 pm

EnriqueL wrote:
czelede wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:First: the numbers are 2009.

Bildungsroman wrote:Yale, the lowest T14 in terms of BigLaw placement, had 35% of its graduating class hired as NLJ associates last year.

RC fail

EnriqueL wrote:Second: they are not accurate.

So, when non-anecdotal evidence shows you to be incorrect, then the evidence must be wrong!


I think its time to give this argument up. OP clearly needs smarter/more successful friends to base his "evidence" on.





It's really laughable that you think that GeorgeTTTown has anywhere near 40% placement. My school certainly did not. Keep believing the numbers. In fact, I'm hoping that you do go to law school. I just hope that the modest ones who actually listen decide not to go.


Who are you to discredit an entire profession?

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bk1
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby bk1 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:26 pm

Waterman and I need lunch advice.

Where is it?

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Unitas
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Unitas » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:26 pm

bk1 wrote:Waterman and I need lunch advice.

Where is it?



Unitas wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:Trying to figure out what I should have for lunch :? Tough call.



I had rice pudding. For added flavor I sprinkled in some cinnamon. Highly recommended with a cost of only 30 cents.

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98234872348
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby 98234872348 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:27 pm

Jas wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:It's really laughable that you think that GeorgeTTTown has anywhere near 40% placement. My school certainly did not. Keep believing the numbers. In fact, I'm hoping that you do go to law school. I just hope that the modest ones who actually listen decide not to go.


Who are you to discredit an entire profession?

How does discrediting a school translate to discrediting a profession..?

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98234872348
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby 98234872348 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:27 pm

bk1 wrote:Waterman and I need lunch advice.

Where is it?

Beer is TCR.

Fools.

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KibblesAndVick
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby KibblesAndVick » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:27 pm

bk1 wrote:Waterman and I need lunch advice.

Where is it?


I just learned we're all going to be eating in the soup kitchens in a couple of years so perhaps you should get a head start.

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pinkzeppelin
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby pinkzeppelin » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:28 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:Trying to figure out what I should have for lunch :? Tough call.


Image

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Bildungsroman
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Bildungsroman » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:28 pm

mistergoft wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
EnriqueL wrote:
If you include deferrals (which might not translate into jobs because the firms can pull back), then I would say between 10 and 20%, not more. It could be 25%, but that would definitely be a surprise.


http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20schools_charts_page12.pdf
Yale, the lowest T14 in terms of BigLaw placement, had 35% of its graduating class hired as NLJ associates last year.

While this chart is useful to disprove OPs point, it might not be useful in the current economy. All of these people did OCI in 2007, before the economic downturn. In addition, this doesn't account for deferrals (or no offers?). Finally, many firms cut their summer associate programs in half in 2009, and have again in 2010 (if not by more than half, or eliminated them all-together). Granted, this may disproportionately affect lower ranked schools and leave the T14 unaffected, but I doubt that theory will prove entirely true. Next year, when the grads that OCIed in 2008 are tallied, we will have a more realistic picture of just how dramatically the economic downturn has affected the hiring of new graduates from top schools.


Of course, those stats are probably more optimistic than 2010 numbers would show. However, EnriqueL's claim that

If you include deferrals (which might not translate into jobs because the firms can pull back), then I would say between 10 and 20%, not more


is overly pessimistic, as I've seen no evidence that there has been a >50% decline in BigLaw placement. I'm not arguing that BigLaw placement is guaranteed or even likely for most T14 grads, but I also think it's important to try and be accurate in portrayals of the legal market, and avoid being overly pessimistic as well as overly optimistic.

EnriqueL wrote:Whatever dude. I've paid my cash, did my three years, and found a job. If you want to act like a smart-alec in front of me because it impresses your fellow 0Ls, then keep it up. You're the one with your money and your career on the line.

If you come out three years later with a temp job and no prospects for advancement and $100,000 in loans to pay back, you'll have only yourself to blame.


And if I do, then, unlike you, I will own up to my responsibility and not try to blame everyone but myself for my own failings.

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Grizz
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Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School

Postby Grizz » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:28 pm

bk1 wrote:Waterman and I need lunch advice.

Where is it?


Eat ramen with hot dog cut up in it. It will cost about $1. This will be good preparation for when we all strike out at OCI and miss big law.




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