I regret having gone to law school

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
paz
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:29 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby paz » Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:59 pm

Ty Webb wrote:
paz wrote:
rad law wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:Almost 11,000 posts in 1.5 years makes me think that you know very little about networking or its merits. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but the tens of thousands of posts internet forum guy doesn't strike me as the kind who can spark meaningful relationships with influential people.


This logic is asinine.


+1

i think you're making quite the stretch with this assumption -- if anything, his strong activity/vocal presence might even prove otherwise.


Sorry, but you have to, you know, leave your computer chair (typically) to develop relationships with people who can help you. Internet forum activism isn't exactly a staple of networking prowess (at least in the real world).

With that, I'm off to play a round of golf, while simultaneously helping underprivileged children. :lol:


again, quite unreasonable to make this assumption. while his avg. posts/day is extremely high (19,) it by no means he is an anti-social lard ass. too many variables come into play that could skew his post count (forum game threads, the use of posting on a smart phone, various mini-sessions throughout the day, etc.)

User avatar
Grizz
Posts: 10583
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:31 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Grizz » Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:59 pm

miamiman wrote:Law firm jobs = 30% school + 60% grades + 10% everything else. The fact that people on this site bank on the "everything else" dimension of the equation never ceases to amuse me.


For big firm hiring fresh out of school, this seems to be the case.

Small firms seem to operate differently, but then again, small firms don't really hire fresh grads anyways.

Govt. is a different animal.

miamiman
Posts: 1486
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:55 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby miamiman » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:01 pm

pleasetryagain wrote:
miamiman wrote:Law firm jobs = 30% school + 60% grades + 10% everything else. The fact that people on this site bank on the "everything else" dimension of the equation never ceases to amuse me.


some might argue that it is 60% school, 30% grades, 10% everything else (roughly) ... as in if you didn't go to a good enough school, no one will be looking at your grades. Some might also argue that is is 90% everything else (see: children of firm partners, children of clients of firms, etc). to put a hard and fast equation like this on the table isnt very.. practical.


My general equation is an aggregate for the majority of the T1. While it doesn't account for YLS, neither does it account for Florida Coastal. That's why it's an aggregate.

User avatar
pugalicious
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby pugalicious » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:01 pm

rayiner wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:Hey, I never claimed I knew everything about networking. Was simply pointing out that you're likely not in a position to offer an opinion on its effectiveness, given the nature of your "social" life (as indicated by 1000000000000000000 posts on an internet forum).


Social life = drinking with other 25 y/o's who can't help you get a job (but might get you laid).
Networking = drinking with old wrinkly men who know firm partners (but won't get you laid).

Thousands of internet posts might interfere with the former, but not the latter.

In summary: I'm having lunch with a firm partner on Tuesday but my nearest prospect for getting laid is like August. :(


Eh. To some people "networking" is a planned activity. They go to "networking events" with the intent of "networking" some people. These people often seem over-eager and desperate. For some, though, the act of "networking" just comes naturally. They meet this person here, that person introduces them to person x, they end up with person y, job, etc. (prob. similar to how you got this lunch set up).


Plus, imagine OP's conversations with partners over drinks: "Well, I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do with my life...and everybody kept telling me to go to law school...and oh my gosh! I totally got into Duke, I didn't even think that I would...so now I just really want to work in my hometown area around Savannah...I don't really know what type of law I want or why I want to do it...I just think, I mean, getting a law job is just the next step after law school, right? That's what everyoneelse seems to be doing...so....can you help me?"

User avatar
Cleareyes
Posts: 408
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:59 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Cleareyes » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:03 pm

rayiner wrote:Networking = drinking with old wrinkly men who know firm partners (but won't get you laid).


Try thinking outside the box.

miamiman
Posts: 1486
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:55 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby miamiman » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:03 pm

rayiner wrote:
miamiman wrote:Law firm jobs = 30% school + 60% grades + 10% everything else. The fact that people on this site bank on the "everything else" dimension of the equation never ceases to amuse me.


In my experience, connections help when you're in the ballpark already, unless it's something like you're uncle working at a firm.

During my 1L job search, I leveraged connections with three firm partners. My grades were way above their usual targets. I went 0/3, with the response "we'd *love* to take you on, but we're just not hiring any more 1Ls."

You can't network your way into jobs that aren't there.


1L SAs were largely mythical prior to ITE. For your 2L job search, my equation will hold.

icydash
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby icydash » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:03 pm

cardnal124 wrote:
icydash wrote:
rad law wrote:
icydash wrote:While I'm sure there is such a thing as being over qualified, unless we're talking about McDonalds-esque jobs here, I've never run into a situation (nor do I personally know anyone else who has) where someone has said to me "we loved your personality...and your work experience...and your resume...we think you'd be a great fit....the only problem is we think you might just do too darn good a job!...so we're not gunna hire you."


It's more a question of them not hiring you because they think you'll bolt for a legal job at your first opportunity.

They may be right in some circumstances. But as long as you lie a little bit and say you tried law and decided it wasn't for you, etc, you should be fine.

And honestly, if I was them, that wouldn't even be a concern. If you do bolt as soon as you get a legal job, then they got someone who's worth 160k/year working for only 20-50k/year for X amount of time. They definitely made out on that deal. And if they have to go find someone else to fill your place when they need to... ITE, not a big deal.


I think the bigger problem is that companies worry that someone who is overqualified will get bored and angry at the world and do a poor job. The poor performance would then be exacerbated by excessive absences from "doctor's appointments" that are interviews for other, more fulfilling work.


Well I mean don't apply for a job you'll hate. That applies to any situation, including positions as attorneys. There are still plenty of jobs that aren't in law in which you can use your JD (or the knowledge you learned while in law school) and are fulfilling. Really you can do anything with a JD, which is what makes it such a powerful degree. Want to be in real estate? You'll need contracts and real estate law. Want to start a business? You'll need to know business law and how to incorporate, etc. Want to invent something? Patent/IP law. Want to have a family? Wills, trusts and estates. And so on. While you may not -directly- use your JD, you'll probably always use the knowledge you gained while at law school, regardless of what you do.

User avatar
pleasetryagain
Posts: 762
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:04 am

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby pleasetryagain » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:06 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
rayiner wrote:Networking = drinking with old wrinkly men who know firm partners (but won't get you laid).


Try thinking outside the box.


is there a box? where can I get this box? is this required for 1L?

Hey-O
Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:50 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Hey-O » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:07 pm

yinz wrote:Though a 3 year gap on your resume may make employers wonder


That is why I'm getting an MA/JD. That way you can use whichever one (or both) that gets you the job you want. I feel like it is more flexible.

miamiman
Posts: 1486
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:55 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby miamiman » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:09 pm

You people also grossly overestimate the extent to which nonequity partners can even influence matters. There are committees of people and sometimes a single person that decide your fate; hobnobbing with and/or leaving a favorable impression upon the pleasant, real estate partner at Kirkland will not get you that job absent the right grades/right school.

At smaller firms and mid law, networking is definitely a larger piece of the puzzle but, rest assured, that a bunch of other similarly-minded people are breaking bread and shmoozing with them just as you are.

Executive summary: networking is not a magic, motherfucking bullet. Stop perpetuating this myth.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby rayiner » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:10 pm

pugalicious wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:Hey, I never claimed I knew everything about networking. Was simply pointing out that you're likely not in a position to offer an opinion on its effectiveness, given the nature of your "social" life (as indicated by 1000000000000000000 posts on an internet forum).


Social life = drinking with other 25 y/o's who can't help you get a job (but might get you laid).
Networking = drinking with old wrinkly men who know firm partners (but won't get you laid).

Thousands of internet posts might interfere with the former, but not the latter.

In summary: I'm having lunch with a firm partner on Tuesday but my nearest prospect for getting laid is like August. :(


Eh. To some people "networking" is a planned activity. They go to "networking events" with the intent of "networking" some people. These people often seem over-eager and desperate. For some, though, the act of "networking" just comes naturally. They meet this person here, that person introduces them to person x, they end up with person y, job, etc. (prob. similar to how you got this lunch set up).


You make high-value contacts by developing some connection with a person you meet, ideally because you share some commonality (a hook). In my case it was "oh you work in this incredibly niche area? Do you know so-and-so? You might want to meet what's his name." It also helps if you know people in common who will say "I've worked with him and he is absolutely awesome, etc."

If you have a pre-LS career (whether it's in engineering or paralegaling) you can develop these sorts of contacts. Without that "hook", however, you're dependent entirely on someone taking a liking to you. "Oh he looks eager and hard-working." Except that describes 70% of your classmates. Then it essentially becomes a matter of luck.

icydash
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby icydash » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:12 pm

miamiman wrote:Executive summary: networking is not a magic, motherfucking bullet. Stop perpetuating this myth.

I don't think anyone is saying it's a "magic, motherfucking bullet." I think everyone here agrees that it's just part of a larger equation. The problem is it's often the part people forget about, and at anywhere from 10%-80% weighting (depending on the equation you choose and your situation), it can be really detrimental to your job hunt if you don't network.
Last edited by icydash on Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
altoidz
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:27 am

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby altoidz » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:13 pm

miamiman wrote:You people also grossly overestimate the extent to which nonequity partners can even influence matters. There are committees of people and sometimes a single person that decide your fate; hobnobbing with and/or leaving a favorable impression upon the pleasant, real estate partner at Kirkland will not get you that job absent the right grades/right school.

At smaller firms and mid law, networking is definitely a larger piece of the puzzle but, rest assured, that a bunch of other similarly-minded people are breaking bread and shmoozing with them just as you are.

Executive summary: networking is not a magic, motherfucking bullet. Stop perpetuating this myth.


you make me miss scallywaggums

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby rayiner » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:13 pm

miamiman wrote:
rayiner wrote:1L SAs were largely mythical prior to ITE. For your 2L job search, my equation will hold.


Right. My point is that even if you have the grades and you have the contacts, there must be job openings, and those are in short supply ITE at all levels.

User avatar
Matthies
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Matthies » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:14 pm

rayiner wrote:
miamiman wrote:Law firm jobs = 30% school + 60% grades + 10% everything else. The fact that people on this site bank on the "everything else" dimension of the equation never ceases to amuse me.


In my experience, connections help when you're in the ballpark already, unless it's something like you're uncle working at a firm.

During my 1L job search, I leveraged connections with three firm partners. My grades were way above their usual targets. I went 0/3, with the response "we'd *love* to take you on, but we're just not hiring any more 1Ls."

You can't network your way into jobs that aren't there.


I'm the complete opposite. I clerked for 3 years in LS, have worked steady since I graduated, and I have never once sent my resume to ANYONE unsolicited or even is response to a job application. Every single job offer I have had has been them asking ME to come work for them. In fact most of the time I did not even have to give them a resume first.

Who you know beats where you go or even what grades you get. People won't create jobs for people they are so-so about, people will create jobs when a lawyer judge they have know and trusted for 30 years calls them up personally and says "you have to hire this guy before someone else does, you won't be sorry, he's that good." If the strength of the recommender is good enough, they will find a place for you. They don't need sos-sos, but if someone tells them you're a hot shot they will make a place for you (there are ways to prove this beyond just grades as well, lots of people ahve good grades, how many have been published, are active in the community [can create rain] know the right people, have demsotrated experience in the practice area ect.

Great school, great grades, great resume just make you as great as everyone else sending in an application with the same stats, you have to be lucky that you just happened to get picked for an interview. There is all ways someone more outstanding than you on paper, rarely is there someone more outstanding that you when someone is personally recoemdning you to the decision maker.

miamiman
Posts: 1486
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:55 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby miamiman » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:17 pm

icydash wrote:
miamiman wrote:Executive summary: networking is not a magic, motherfucking bullet. Stop perpetuating this myth.

I don't think anyone is saying it's a "magic, motherfucking bullet." I think everyone here agrees that it's just part of a larger equation. The problem is it's often the part people forget about, and at anywhere from 10%-30% weighting (depending on the equation you choose and your situation), it can be really detrimental to your job hunt if you don't network.


It can also be detrimental to your job search if you're fat, short, or shake hands wrong.

To say that networking is important is analagous to my saying that you shouldn't have dirty sex with prostitutes. They're common sense statements that most people follow.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby rayiner » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:17 pm

Matthies wrote:
rayiner wrote:
miamiman wrote:Law firm jobs = 30% school + 60% grades + 10% everything else. The fact that people on this site bank on the "everything else" dimension of the equation never ceases to amuse me.


In my experience, connections help when you're in the ballpark already, unless it's something like you're uncle working at a firm.

During my 1L job search, I leveraged connections with three firm partners. My grades were way above their usual targets. I went 0/3, with the response "we'd *love* to take you on, but we're just not hiring any more 1Ls."

You can't network your way into jobs that aren't there.


I'm the complete opposite. I clerked for 3 years in LS, have worked steady since I graduated, and I have never once sent my resume to ANYONE unsolicited or even is response to a job application. Every single job offer I have had has been them asking ME to come work for them. In fact most of the time I did not even have to give them a resume first.


Yes, when you have that kind of deep relationship, you can do this. It's actually how I got my engineering job post-graduation. But it's really just not an option for most people. Ty here isn't talking about kicking ass at an in-school clerking job and then leveraging that contact. He's talking about... well the hell if I know what he thinks he's talking about.

miamiman
Posts: 1486
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:55 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby miamiman » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:18 pm

altoidz wrote:
miamiman wrote:You people also grossly overestimate the extent to which nonequity partners can even influence matters. There are committees of people and sometimes a single person that decide your fate; hobnobbing with and/or leaving a favorable impression upon the pleasant, real estate partner at Kirkland will not get you that job absent the right grades/right school.

At smaller firms and mid law, networking is definitely a larger piece of the puzzle but, rest assured, that a bunch of other similarly-minded people are breaking bread and shmoozing with them just as you are.

Executive summary: networking is not a magic, motherfucking bullet. Stop perpetuating this myth.


you make me miss scallywaggums


Tell me what in what I just said is not 100% true. Nonequity partners are almost entirely shut out from hiring committee decisions.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:21 pm

I got my first job by fucking a guys chubby daughter.

icydash
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby icydash » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:21 pm

miamiman wrote:
altoidz wrote:
miamiman wrote:You people also grossly overestimate the extent to which nonequity partners can even influence matters. There are committees of people and sometimes a single person that decide your fate; hobnobbing with and/or leaving a favorable impression upon the pleasant, real estate partner at Kirkland will not get you that job absent the right grades/right school.

At smaller firms and mid law, networking is definitely a larger piece of the puzzle but, rest assured, that a bunch of other similarly-minded people are breaking bread and shmoozing with them just as you are.

Executive summary: networking is not a magic, motherfucking bullet. Stop perpetuating this myth.


you make me miss scallywaggums


Tell me what in what I just said is not 100% true. Nonequity partners are almost entirely shut out from hiring committee decisions.

Well this for one is not true. I know several partners at firms who are not on the hiring committee and are non-equity, but if they vouch for someone or strongly recommend someone, it's basically a sure thing for at least an interview, regardless of school (though grades are important).

User avatar
altoidz
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:27 am

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby altoidz » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:22 pm

miamiman wrote:
altoidz wrote:you make me miss scallywaggums


Tell me what in what I just said is not 100% true. Nonequity partners are almost entirely shut out from hiring committee decisions.


it has nothing to do with what you wrote, in fact, i tl;dred thuis whole thread

icydash
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby icydash » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:23 pm

miamiman wrote:To say that networking is important is analagous to my saying that you shouldn't have dirty sex with prostitutes. They're common sense statements that most people follow.

... I shouldn't have dirty sex with prostitutes?

User avatar
Matthies
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Matthies » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:25 pm

miamiman wrote:You people also grossly overestimate the extent to which nonequity partners can even influence matters. There are committees of people and sometimes a single person that decide your fate; hobnobbing with and/or leaving a favorable impression upon the pleasant, real estate partner at Kirkland will not get you that job absent the right grades/right school.

At smaller firms and mid law, networking is definitely a larger piece of the puzzle but, rest assured, that a bunch of other similarly-minded people are breaking bread and shmoozing with them just as you are.

Executive summary: networking is not a magic, motherfucking bullet. Stop perpetuating this myth.


Umm this only applies to OCI you know that right? Really I appreciate your posting on here, trying to gain knowledge and sharing the knowledge you have. But the above is just B FUCKING S. You need to understand something, most law students get into a firm based on OCI, and partners get "stiuck" with them, and they will tell you this and they don't like it.

But equity partner or not can and will bring law grads and mid levels in to work under them in thier department. Why? Because its their department and they are unlitmailty responsible for its production, and if they can get someone in they know personally that can do the job over some OCI kid placed there by HR without their say they will take that guy/girl any freaking day. They will tell the recruiting manager hire X, put him in my department and its done. I've fucking done it. So stop telling people what the truth is about things you've never fucking done.

End rant. Sorry, its a fucking pet peeve of mine when people, meaning well, give out false information then tell everyone else its the whole truth. You're a food poster miaimiman, but your taking as gospel what other people have told you who have never actually done the things they tell you can't be done.

User avatar
Iuvo
Posts: 99
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:38 am

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Iuvo » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:27 pm

rayiner wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:Hey, I never claimed I knew everything about networking. Was simply pointing out that you're likely not in a position to offer an opinion on its effectiveness, given the nature of your "social" life (as indicated by 1000000000000000000 posts on an internet forum).


Social life = drinking with other 25 y/o's who can't help you get a job (but might get you laid).
Networking = drinking with old wrinkly men who know firm partners (but won't get you laid).

Thousands of internet posts might interfere with the former, but not the latter.

In summary: I'm having lunch with a firm partner on Tuesday but my nearest prospect for getting laid is like August. :(

You don't seem to have your priorities straight.

User avatar
altoidz
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:27 am

Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby altoidz » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:29 pm

Iuvo wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:Hey, I never claimed I knew everything about networking. Was simply pointing out that you're likely not in a position to offer an opinion on its effectiveness, given the nature of your "social" life (as indicated by 1000000000000000000 posts on an internet forum).


Social life = drinking with other 25 y/o's who can't help you get a job (but might get you laid).
Networking = drinking with old wrinkly men who know firm partners (but won't get you laid).

Thousands of internet posts might interfere with the former, but not the latter.

In summary: I'm having lunch with a firm partner on Tuesday but my nearest prospect for getting laid is like August. :(

You don't seem to have your priorities straight.


not everyone is as lustful and carnal as you!




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 8 guests