I regret having gone to law school

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altoidz
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby altoidz » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:27 am

miamiman wrote:HEY IF YOU'RE GOING TO MEME MY QUOTE, PAY ME SOME ROYALTIES.

(Or at least cite it)


NO!!

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vanwinkle
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:27 am

Matthies wrote:Look, none of you would take advice from someone declaring their second bankruptcy on how to invest and manage your money. But law students seen drawn like months to a flame to websites, blogs, posts by people who could not find a legal job, especially those from top law schools.

Is that really where you should be turning to to get your advice on how to find a legal job?

This may be the best point ever made on TLS about these kind of threads.

miamiman
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby miamiman » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:28 am

Desert Fox wrote:All I want is 200K a year, is that too much to ask?

And yet you told me you wouldn't fellate another dude to make that dream a reality.

Desert Fox, when will you learn we all need to make compromises ITE?

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D. H2Oman
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby D. H2Oman » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:28 am

Matthies wrote:
miamiman wrote:I genuinely think Matthies offers outstanding advice, especially as it relates to networking. The problems I see are not flaws inherent to what he's saying but issues that are exogenous to law school right now.

1.) For one, I don't know specifically when you graduated but I infer it was pre ITE? Back then, I imagine (but cannot say for sure whether) individual displays of hustle and grit were met with greater reward than they are today. I would guess they were if only because there were actual jobs to give out. Small law and mid law are pretty brutal to break into now also.

2) two, hustle is important. It might, as you say, even qualify as a FT job. That said, I think you're unusual in your capacity to have juggled school, and work, and fulltime networking. Most students can't do that and, imho, its unfair to ask that they do.


I graduated in may 2009, at the worst point ITE for legal jobs from a T2 school.

No most people probably can't do what I did (or more realistically WON"t DO), and that's my point. For most people its far easier for them to get into law school than it is for them to get a job as or be good at being a lawyer. Some of this is the economy, but the economy hurts those most who did not have the skills, or will unwilling to learn the skills, to make it on their. You don't win at life the day you get that offer at big law. You have to keep that job for the next 30+ years if you want to be a lawyer. Folks real life is tough, it takes work, and you can only coast on your grades/diploma/schools name for so long, someday your gonna have to make it on your own.

Learn how to do that if you want to be a lawyer. Law school teaches you enough to get the JD and little else. You can either think that's enough to win at life then be shocked when its not, or take the steps you need to to learn what its takes to be a real lawyer while you have time to f it up a bit, in law school.

I get sick of these flames. Is it flame, most likely, because the OP says he can teach for Kaplan or barbri, which tells me has not take a bar prep class since students don't teach those, new grads don't, old law professors on video tape do.
Look, none of you would take advice from someone declaring their second bankruptcy on how to invest and manage your money. But law students seen drawn like months to a flame to websites, blogs, posts by people who could not find a legal job, especially those from top law schools.

Is that really where you should be turning to to get your advice on how to find a legal job? Maybe, just maybe, its better to seek out people who have gotten law jobs and know how to get legal jobs and follow their advice instead. But hey, that's not as easy as saying law schools are a scam, or its the ecoemony, or TTT grads fault. Lots of people have been successful finding jobs in this eceomony, they just don't have anyone to blame and not as much free time to complain about it on the internet, because well, they got jobs.


How much do you make?

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mallard
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby mallard » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:28 am

vanwinkle wrote:
Matthies wrote:Look, none of you would take advice from someone declaring their second bankruptcy on how to invest and manage your money. But law students seen drawn like months to a flame to websites, blogs, posts by people who could not find a legal job, especially those from top law schools.

Is that really where you should be turning to to get your advice on how to find a legal job?

This may be the best point ever made on TLS about these kind of threads.


I don't really think so. People aren't going to this person for advice, but they do take it as a sign of the market and as a sign of the times.

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iceicebaby
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby iceicebaby » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:29 am

You should feel accomplished going to a T20 school. I won't ever get there, but I can promise you that it really doesn't matter. I deeply agree with those people that hold that networking is key. It isn't a "magic bullet", but if no one knows/cares about who you are, you are fighting an uphill battle no matter where you went to law school.

Also, try taking some classes in business or something else that intrigues you. Devote time that you would be writing on this board to passing the bar (if you haven't already) and doing pro bono work. After all, most Firms love people that do pro bono work, because you can be their go-to guy when they need to look good with that kind of work. They all do it, so should you if you have the time. Also, think about going back to get an LLM or any other degree that would help your resume.

The key is to be positive! You went to a T20, man. I, amongst many others, would kill for that designation. You've fought your battle already with law school and what is done is done. Now take the "lemons" you have been given thus far and make some fucking lemonade (mix it with vodka if you have to).

Best of luck, friend.

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altoidz
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby altoidz » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:29 am

D. H2Oman wrote:
How much do you make?


more than you!!!

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vanwinkle
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:30 am

mallard wrote:People aren't going to this person for advice, but they do take it as a sign of the market and as a sign of the times.

That is taking it as advice (to stay out of law school because you can't find a job). But there are people finding jobs even ITE; they're just not the kind of people who start threads like these.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby D. H2Oman » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:31 am

altoidz wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:
How much do you make?


more than you!!!



:cry:

Did you count the birthday money my grandma gave me?!?!

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mallard
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby mallard » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:32 am

vanwinkle wrote:
mallard wrote:People aren't going to this person for advice, but they do take it as a sign of the market and as a sign of the times.

That is taking it as advice (to stay out of law school because you can't find a job). But there are people finding jobs even ITE; they're just not the kind of people who start threads like these.


Yes, I don't think anybody's claiming that nobody is finding a job. Matthies is still - much as I think he is one of the best current TLS posters - he is still peddling the "network! pull yourself up by your bootstraps! you're not trying hard enough! you deserve it!" bullshit. Things are really shitty right now, and there aren't as many jobs as graduates. No amount of networking will change that. One person's networking simply puts another one out of a job, and that person can't network a new position into existence.

09042014
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:33 am

Teach English in Korea or Join the air force as an engineer when I get cold offered from Howrey?

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romothesavior
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:34 am

mallard wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Matthies wrote:Look, none of you would take advice from someone declaring their second bankruptcy on how to invest and manage your money. But law students seen drawn like months to a flame to websites, blogs, posts by people who could not find a legal job, especially those from top law schools.

Is that really where you should be turning to to get your advice on how to find a legal job?

This may be the best point ever made on TLS about these kind of threads.


I don't really think so. People aren't going to this person for advice, but they do take it as a sign of the market and as a sign of the times.


I've been disagreeing with you in the other thread this morning Mallard, but I agree with you here.

Matthies, I don't look at these blogs and threads for job searching advice, because that's not what they are for. I take interest in them because I want to know if I am making a monumental mistake. And while I agree that it is easy for people to blame law schools, the economy, etc. and call the system a scam, I think it is equally easy to blame the victim and say they didn't want it enough. Neither viewpoint offers the full picture; all of the employment problems do not rest on ITE, nor do they rest at the feet of lazy and immature students. I think it is a mixture of both, as well as a mixture of luck.

What do you say to the guy who got deferred ---> no offered? In a lot of ways, that is just bad luck.

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Matthies
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Matthies » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:39 am

D. H2Oman wrote:
How much do you make?


Enough to keep me happy and pay my bills, and work from home (which is a HUGE plus in my book). I do public interest environmental and water law mostly. But working through law school means I still own a townhouse in downtown Denver, drive an Audi, own 1/4 of a ski condo in Breck, have a few flat screens, a bunch of computers and other shit that people who make more than me can't do because they got more debt.

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Shot007
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Shot007 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:39 am

vanwinkle wrote:
Matthies wrote:Look, none of you would take advice from someone declaring their second bankruptcy on how to invest and manage your money. But law students seen drawn like months to a flame to websites, blogs, posts by people who could not find a legal job, especially those from top law schools.

Is that really where you should be turning to to get your advice on how to find a legal job?

This may be the best point ever made on TLS about these kind of threads.

+1

miamiman
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby miamiman » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:40 am

Desert Fox wrote:Teach English in Korea or Join the air force as an engineer when I get cold offered from Howrey?

Or you can just fellate your way into a corner office at proskauer. your call

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camstant
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby camstant » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:41 am

vanwinkle wrote:
Matthies wrote:Look, none of you would take advice from someone declaring their second bankruptcy on how to invest and manage your money. But law students seen drawn like months to a flame to websites, blogs, posts by people who could not find a legal job, especially those from top law schools.

Is that really where you should be turning to to get your advice on how to find a legal job?

This may be the best point ever made on TLS about these kind of threads.


Youre kidding... thats a ridiculous analogy

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Matthies
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Matthies » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:43 am

mallard wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
mallard wrote:People aren't going to this person for advice, but they do take it as a sign of the market and as a sign of the times.

That is taking it as advice (to stay out of law school because you can't find a job). But there are people finding jobs even ITE; they're just not the kind of people who start threads like these.


Yes, I don't think anybody's claiming that nobody is finding a job. Matthies is still - much as I think he is one of the best current TLS posters - he is still peddling the "network! pull yourself up by your bootstraps! you're not trying hard enough! you deserve it!" bullshit.


Damn right I am. Why? because its all I know and its worked for me. Sure I could talk out of my ass about NYC biglaw like i know what the fuck I am talking about, but I don't, you know why, cause I don't know what I'm talking about on that subject. What I do know, I speak on. There are plenty of other posters on here who can talk with certainity about shit they have never done, I'll leave that to them.

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Grizz
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Grizz » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:43 am

Matthies wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:
How much do you make?


Enough to keep me happy and pay my bills, and work from home (which is a HUGE plus in my book). I do public interest environmental and water law mostly. But working through law school means I still own a townhouse in downtown Denver, drive an Audi, own 1/4 of a ski condo in Breck, have a few flat screens, a bunch of computers and other shit that people who make more than me can't do because they got more debt.


Your life sounds awesome.

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lsat_fear
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby lsat_fear » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:44 am

Matthies wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:
How much do you make?


Enough to keep me happy and pay my bills, and work from home (which is a HUGE plus in my book). I do public interest environmental and water law mostly. But working through law school means I still own a townhouse in downtown Denver, drive an Audi, own 1/4 of a ski condo in Breck, have a few flat screens, a bunch of computers and other shit that people who make more than me can't do because they got more debt.

aintchu sumtin else! seriously dude, I hope the legal profession is not filled with douchebags as stuck on themselves as you. . .
Last edited by lsat_fear on Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:45 am

camstant wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Matthies wrote:Look, none of you would take advice from someone declaring their second bankruptcy on how to invest and manage your money. But law students seen drawn like months to a flame to websites, blogs, posts by people who could not find a legal job, especially those from top law schools.

Is that really where you should be turning to to get your advice on how to find a legal job?

This may be the best point ever made on TLS about these kind of threads.


Youre kidding... thats a ridiculous analogy


You watch your tone, son. :D

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altoidz
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby altoidz » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:47 am

D. H2Oman wrote:
:cry:

Did you count the birthday money my grandma gave me?!?!


well ill tell you you make more than i!!

09042014
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:50 am

altoidz wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:
:cry:

Did you count the birthday money my grandma gave me?!?!


well ill tell you you make more than i!!


altoidz = youpiz right?

HLS2000
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby HLS2000 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:56 am

I can't believe how many people are replying to this post. I am the first to admit that it is the roughest climate in which to find a legal job in at least 30 years and that prospects from even the best schools are generally much worse than they were 3+ years ago.

But this post is so obviously a flame. Bar Bri doesn't even hire recent law grads as teachers. It uses law professors. The post also refers to middle firms. No T-14 graduate uses that odd term to describe firms that pay below the big firm market rate. People refer to middle market firms or occassionally mid-law firms or even smaller firms but I have not heard "middle" firms.

The phraseology of this post just sounds really phony, at least to the ears of an experienced lawyer.

Again, I don't disagree with the sentiment that today's job market is particularly rough, even coming from top schools. But I hate it when people have some strange desire to scare students with phony tales.

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98234872348
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby 98234872348 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:57 am

D. H2Oman wrote:
altoidz wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:
How much do you make?


more than you!!!



:cry:

Did you count the birthday money my grandma gave me?!?!

While this thread is filled with valuable advice (amidst the petty bickering and idle speculation), this is by far my favorite post ITT.

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Matthies
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Matthies » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:00 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Matthies, I don't look at these blogs and threads for job searching advice, because that's not what they are for. I take interest in them because I want to know if I am making a monumental mistake. And while I agree that it is easy for people to blame law schools, the economy, etc. and call the system a scam, I think it is equally easy to blame the victim and say they didn't want it enough. Neither viewpoint offers the full picture; all of the employment problems do not rest on ITE, nor do they rest at the feet of lazy and immature students. I think it is a mixture of both, as well as a mixture of luck.

What do you say to the guy who got deferred ---> no offered? In a lot of ways, that is just bad luck.



Look its like this there are basically three ways to find a job. Reactive, proactive, combination.

Reactive Job Strategies:

Get into the best school you can
Get the best grades you can
rely on the schools to bring in people to interview you
Bid on OCI
Get picked for OCI
Interview for OCI
Get summer SA from OCI
Get offer from summer SA
Mass Mail resumes
Reply to want adds

All these things have one thing in common, they are reactive job search strategies where most of the decision making is out of your control. The person on the other side, the school, the professor, the interviewer, the firm, the secretary who open your letter control your destiny more than you do. What firm you interview with, what your practice area will be, who you will work for, if you even get a chance to meet them are all controlled by someone else. At any one point something out of your control and can and likely will kill one of the above chances. And then what are you left with? You hold but 1 maybe 2 cards and they hold the rest of the deck that is your job search. Who is to balme if this is your entire job search?

Proactive Job Search Strategies:

Networking
Making contacts in the legal community who can recommend you or even hire you
Getting involved in the legal community outside of school so you can hear about potions before others do
Making name for yourself in the legal community outside of school
boosting your resume/experience from stuff done outside the school in the legal community
Doing something, anything to stand put

Combination:
Do all of the above, that way when you get no offered you have something proactive to fall back on.




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