I regret having gone to law school

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Matthies
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Matthies » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:30 pm

rayiner wrote:
Matthies wrote:
rayiner wrote:
miamiman wrote:Law firm jobs = 30% school + 60% grades + 10% everything else. The fact that people on this site bank on the "everything else" dimension of the equation never ceases to amuse me.


In my experience, connections help when you're in the ballpark already, unless it's something like you're uncle working at a firm.

During my 1L job search, I leveraged connections with three firm partners. My grades were way above their usual targets. I went 0/3, with the response "we'd *love* to take you on, but we're just not hiring any more 1Ls."

You can't network your way into jobs that aren't there.


I'm the complete opposite. I clerked for 3 years in LS, have worked steady since I graduated, and I have never once sent my resume to ANYONE unsolicited or even is response to a job application. Every single job offer I have had has been them asking ME to come work for them. In fact most of the time I did not even have to give them a resume first.


Yes, when you have that kind of deep relationship, you can do this. It's actually how I got my engineering job post-graduation. But it's really just not an option for most people. Ty here isn't talking about kicking ass at an in-school clerking job and then leveraging that contact. He's talking about... well the hell if I know what he thinks he's talking about.


Umm, that's only becuase I did while in law school. The only person i knew when I came here for law school is a carear crminal. (Which by the way refering him to severl CD lawyers has been good networking over the years, he has money aand gets into regualr trouble). Hide in school and consider lunch once a month networking and yet, you get what you get, nothing. You want to be a lawyer now, so why hide from real lawyers then, use the same skills you did as an enginer to netwk with lawyers

miamiman
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby miamiman » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:31 pm

Matthies wrote:
miamiman wrote:You people also grossly overestimate the extent to which nonequity partners can even influence matters. There are committees of people and sometimes a single person that decide your fate; hobnobbing with and/or leaving a favorable impression upon the pleasant, real estate partner at Kirkland will not get you that job absent the right grades/right school.

At smaller firms and mid law, networking is definitely a larger piece of the puzzle but, rest assured, that a bunch of other similarly-minded people are breaking bread and shmoozing with them just as you are.

Executive summary: networking is not a magic, motherfucking bullet. Stop perpetuating this myth.


Umm this only applies to OCI you know that right? Really I appreciate your posting on here, trying to gain knowledge and sharing the knowledge you have. But the above is just B FUCKING S. You need to understand something, most law students get into a firm based on OCI, and partners get "stiuck" with them, and they will tell you this and they don't like it.

But equity partner or not can and will bring law grads and mid levels in to work under them in thier department. Why? Because its their department and they are unlitmailty responsible for its production, and if they can get someone in they know personally that can do the job over some OCI kid placed there by HR without their say they will take that guy/girl any freaking day. They will tell the recruiting manager hire X, put him in my department and its done. I've fucking done it. So stop telling people what the truth is about things you've never fucking done.

End rant. Sorry, its a fucking pet peeve of mine when people, meaning well, give out false information then tell everyone else its the whole truth. You're a food poster miaimiman, but your taking as gospel what other people have told you who have never actually done the things they tell you can't be done.


No gospel here. This is what I know to be true from talking to the many partners at Miami's biggest law firms, of which one of my parents is affiliated.

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rayiner
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby rayiner » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:36 pm

icydash wrote:
miamiman wrote:
altoidz wrote:
miamiman wrote:You people also grossly overestimate the extent to which nonequity partners can even influence matters. There are committees of people and sometimes a single person that decide your fate; hobnobbing with and/or leaving a favorable impression upon the pleasant, real estate partner at Kirkland will not get you that job absent the right grades/right school.

At smaller firms and mid law, networking is definitely a larger piece of the puzzle but, rest assured, that a bunch of other similarly-minded people are breaking bread and shmoozing with them just as you are.

Executive summary: networking is not a magic, motherfucking bullet. Stop perpetuating this myth.


you make me miss scallywaggums


Tell me what in what I just said is not 100% true. Nonequity partners are almost entirely shut out from hiring committee decisions.

Well this for one is not true. I know several partners at firms who are not on the hiring committee and are non-equity, but if they vouch for someone or strongly recommend someone, it's basically a sure thing for at least an interview, regardless of school (though grades are important).


LOL. Firms hand out interviews like candy.

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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby miamiman » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:41 pm

Ray, in truth, what aspect of what I said is wrong? Im curious.

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Matthies
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Matthies » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:42 pm

rayiner wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:Hey, I never claimed I knew everything about networking. Was simply pointing out that you're likely not in a position to offer an opinion on its effectiveness, given the nature of your "social" life (as indicated by 1000000000000000000 posts on an internet forum).


Social life = drinking with other 25 y/o's who can't help you get a job (but might get you laid).
Networking = drinking with old wrinkly men who know firm partners (but won't get you laid).

Thousands of internet posts might interfere with the former, but not the latter.

In summary: I'm having lunch with a firm partner on Tuesday but my nearest prospect for getting laid is like August. :(


Try mixing the two, sleeping with old wrinkly men who are partners = networking = job

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altoidz
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby altoidz » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:42 pm

troof is a myff!

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rayiner
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby rayiner » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:43 pm

Matthies wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Matthies wrote:
rayiner wrote:
In my experience, connections help when you're in the ballpark already, unless it's something like you're uncle working at a firm.

During my 1L job search, I leveraged connections with three firm partners. My grades were way above their usual targets. I went 0/3, with the response "we'd *love* to take you on, but we're just not hiring any more 1Ls."

You can't network your way into jobs that aren't there.


I'm the complete opposite. I clerked for 3 years in LS, have worked steady since I graduated, and I have never once sent my resume to ANYONE unsolicited or even is response to a job application. Every single job offer I have had has been them asking ME to come work for them. In fact most of the time I did not even have to give them a resume first.


Yes, when you have that kind of deep relationship, you can do this. It's actually how I got my engineering job post-graduation. But it's really just not an option for most people. Ty here isn't talking about kicking ass at an in-school clerking job and then leveraging that contact. He's talking about... well the hell if I know what he thinks he's talking about.


Umm, that's only becuase I did while in law school. The only person i knew when I came here for law school is a carear crminal. (Which by the way refering him to severl CD lawyers has been good networking over the years, he has money aand gets into regualr trouble). Hide in school and consider lunch once a month networking and yet, you get what you get, nothing. You want to be a lawyer now, so why hide from real lawyers then, use the same skills you did as an enginer to netwk with lawyers


I'm not talking about me. My job gives me plenty of opportunity to network. I'm talking about everyone else who isn't clerking for three years in LS.

The point is that Ty is blaming OP for not "networking". Simple fact is that without some sort of prior relationship its an uphill battle. Yes, some people get their jobs by networking, but its not really more than a longshot for your average student.

hellokitty
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby hellokitty » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:43 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I got my first job by fucking a guys chubby daughter.

Did no one read this? Lolol :lol:

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rayiner
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby rayiner » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:44 pm

miamiman wrote:Ray, in truth, what aspect of what I said is wrong? Im curious.


You didn't say anything wrong. My point is that the job market blows and even if you have the schools + grades, and the connections you are fighting an uphill battle.

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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby miamiman » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:47 pm

rayiner wrote:
miamiman wrote:Ray, in truth, what aspect of what I said is wrong? Im curious.


You didn't say anything wrong. My point is that the job market blows and even if you have the schools + grades, and the connections you are fighting an uphill battle.


Yep.

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pleasetryagain
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby pleasetryagain » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:48 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I got my first job by fucking a guys chubby daughter.


That's funny.. That's how I got my first ass-kicking. In retrospect we shouldn't have used his bed.

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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby miamiman » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:51 pm

Ray, I'm PMing a question I have.

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Matthies
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Matthies » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:53 pm

rayiner wrote:The point is that Ty is blaming OP for not "networking". Simple fact is that without some sort of prior relationship its an uphill battle. Yes, some people get their jobs by networking, but its not really more than a longshot for your average student.


The point I keep drumming until its dead is what the "average studnet" does, does not work. OCI, crapshoot, mass mailing pointless, responding to job adds, so is everyone else. Networking alone won't allways get you a job, but it least gives you some back up when you become a about to graduate 3L and realize wow those first three did not work, maybe I should have tried something else. The whole point of networking while in law school is to create that :prior" realtionship BEFORE you need it, at graduation. You don't have to clerk, you can join an Inn, go to bar assocations meetings, hell my bar has a kickball leagage. Do SOMETHING. Mail mereging 300 resumes with the same cover letter to unslocitied firms makes you think your doing something for your job search, but all you are really doing is wasting paper and stamps. that IS the average law stduents job search techniqiue. Fine if it works, but most times it won't, and that's not when to decide I shold have developed a prior relationship for the past 3 years I was in law school. You have something ij common with every lawyer you meet, you all went to LS, that's a bionding to start developing a realtionship.

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Cleareyes
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Cleareyes » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:59 pm

Matthies wrote:
rayiner wrote:The point is that Ty is blaming OP for not "networking". Simple fact is that without some sort of prior relationship its an uphill battle. Yes, some people get their jobs by networking, but its not really more than a longshot for your average student.


The point I keep drumming until its dead is what the "average studnet" does, does not work. OCI, crapshoot, mass mailing pointless, responding to job adds, so is everyone else. Networking alone won't allways get you a job, but it least gives you some back up when you become a about to graduate 3L and realize wow those first three did not work, maybe I should have tried something else. The whole point of networking while in law school is to create that :prior" realtionship BEFORE you need it, at graduation. You don't have to clerk, you can join an Inn, go to bar assocations meetings, hell my bar has a kickball leagage. Do SOMETHING. Mail mereging 300 resumes with the same cover letter to unslocitied firms makes you think your doing something for your job search, but all you are really doing is wasting paper and stamps. that IS the average law stduents job search techniqiue. Fine if it works, but most times it won't, and that's not when to decide I shold have developed a prior relationship for the past 3 years I was in law school. You have something ij common with every lawyer you meet, you all went to LS, that's a bionding to start developing a realtionship.


This advice seems very sound for a certain type of law student who wants a certain type of job, but a lot of us on TLS A) are looking for jobs in large complex organizations that don't necessarily work that way and where the people who have the real power are hidden away behind walls of underlings, etc... B) Looking for jobs in areas away from where our schools are. If you're going to school in Michigan but want to work in NYC it's a bit of a trek to hit up the local bar association kickball game every Thursday evening.

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Matthies
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Matthies » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:05 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
Matthies wrote:
rayiner wrote:The point is that Ty is blaming OP for not "networking". Simple fact is that without some sort of prior relationship its an uphill battle. Yes, some people get their jobs by networking, but its not really more than a longshot for your average student.


The point I keep drumming until its dead is what the "average studnet" does, does not work. OCI, crapshoot, mass mailing pointless, responding to job adds, so is everyone else. Networking alone won't allways get you a job, but it least gives you some back up when you become a about to graduate 3L and realize wow those first three did not work, maybe I should have tried something else. The whole point of networking while in law school is to create that :prior" realtionship BEFORE you need it, at graduation. You don't have to clerk, you can join an Inn, go to bar assocations meetings, hell my bar has a kickball leagage. Do SOMETHING. Mail mereging 300 resumes with the same cover letter to unslocitied firms makes you think your doing something for your job search, but all you are really doing is wasting paper and stamps. that IS the average law stduents job search techniqiue. Fine if it works, but most times it won't, and that's not when to decide I shold have developed a prior relationship for the past 3 years I was in law school. You have something ij common with every lawyer you meet, you all went to LS, that's a bionding to start developing a realtionship.


This advice seems very sound for a certain type of law student who wants a certain type of job, but a lot of us on TLS A) are looking for jobs in large complex organizations that don't necessarily work that way and where the people who have the real power are hidden away behind walls of underlings, etc... B) Looking for jobs in areas away from where our schools are. If you're going to school in Michigan but want to work in NYC it's a bit of a trek to hit up the local bar association kickball game every Thursday evening.


True, hence why I allaways say go to school where you want to work. But there are ways of networking even from a disatnce. You could start a blog that covers your pratice area, write short peices or the local bar rag where you do want to work. there are options, but those are all more diffcult than mail merge.

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Cleareyes
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Cleareyes » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:14 pm

Matthies wrote:
True, hence why I allaways say go to school where you want to work. But there are ways of networking even from a disatnce. You could start a blog that covers your pratice area, write short peices or the local bar rag where you do want to work. there are options, but those are all more diffcult than mail merge.


First of all, not everyone KNOWS where they want to work when they go to law school.

Second, let's take a classmate of mine who wants to work in D.C. If you're really saying she should have taken Georgetown over Harvard because of networking opportunities then you're flying against both conventional wisdom and what seems to work.

Third, you seem to be forgetting one of the BIGGEST networking resources, which is your school alumni network. Higher ranked schools tend to have stronger networks.

I think there are different strategies and different values to various aspects of job finding depending on where you are in the law school game. You have a very specific and particular experience (albeit one more typical of law school students/grads in general than the experience of T14 students) and I think you're overgeneralizing from it. Yes people should network and you have an important point that meaningful networking is not about getting business cards and shaking hands so much as it is building real personal relationships and having your name be the first someone comes across in their mental rolodex, but the value of these relationships vs grades/school varies from job to job and organization to organization. That's important.

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altoidz
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby altoidz » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:18 pm

cleareyes are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? because you think someone is not quite 100% right on the internet? because someone potentially disagrees with you?

your cat look ornery.

howcani111
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby howcani111 » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:23 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
Matthies wrote:
True, hence why I allaways say go to school where you want to work. But there are ways of networking even from a disatnce. You could start a blog that covers your pratice area, write short peices or the local bar rag where you do want to work. there are options, but those are all more diffcult than mail merge.


First of all, not everyone KNOWS where they want to work when they go to law school.

Second, let's take a classmate of mine who wants to work in D.C. If you're really saying she should have taken Georgetown over Harvard because of networking opportunities then you're flying against both conventional wisdom and what seems to work.

Third, you seem to be forgetting one of the BIGGEST networking resources, which is your school alumni network. Higher ranked schools tend to have stronger networks.

I think there are different strategies and different values to various aspects of job finding depending on where you are in the law school game. You have a very specific and particular experience (albeit one more typical of law school students/grads in general than the experience of T14 students) and I think you're overgeneralizing from it. Yes people should network and you have an important point that meaningful networking is not about getting business cards and shaking hands so much as it is building real personal relationships and having your name be the first someone comes across in their mental rolodex, but the value of these relationships vs grades/school varies from job to job and organization to organization. That's important.


Your taking Matthies posts way too seriously. Networking is a good tool. It will work for some and not for others. It's also very situational. True, the economny sucks. But law students should be doing EVERYTHING to get a job. This includes networking. It's part of the process of finding a job.

howcani111
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby howcani111 » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:23 pm

altoidz wrote:cleareyes are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? because you think someone is not quite 100% right on the internet? because someone potentially disagrees with you?

your cat look ornery.


lol

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SwollenMonkey
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby SwollenMonkey » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:29 pm

hellokitty wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I got my first job by fucking a guys chubby daughter.

Did no one read this? Lolol :lol:


I did now, lol.

It's okay, I gave a fat chick oral once. Since that day, I desire girls with curves.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:51 pm

altoidz wrote:cleareyes are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? because you think someone is not quite 100% right on the internet? because someone potentially disagrees with you?

your cat look ornery.

Not ornery, just very disappointed in someone.

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altoidz
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby altoidz » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:52 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:Not ornery, just very disappointed in someone.


yeah probably in me. its okay. ill handle it with my cats aggressiveness

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Matthies
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Matthies » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:52 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
Matthies wrote:
True, hence why I allaways say go to school where you want to work. But there are ways of networking even from a disatnce. You could start a blog that covers your pratice area, write short peices or the local bar rag where you do want to work. there are options, but those are all more diffcult than mail merge.


First of all, not everyone KNOWS where they want to work when they go to law school.

Second, let's take a classmate of mine who wants to work in D.C. If you're really saying she should have taken Georgetown over Harvard because of networking opportunities then you're flying against both conventional wisdom and what seems to work.

Third, you seem to be forgetting one of the BIGGEST networking resources, which is your school alumni network. Higher ranked schools tend to have stronger networks.

I think there are different strategies and different values to various aspects of job finding depending on where you are in the law school game. You have a very specific and particular experience (albeit one more typical of law school students/grads in general than the experience of T14 students) and I think you're overgeneralizing from it. Yes people should network and you have an important point that meaningful networking is not about getting business cards and shaking hands so much as it is building real personal relationships and having your name be the first someone comes across in their mental rolodex, but the value of these relationships vs grades/school varies from job to job and organization to organization. That's important.



Sure that's important. Sure grades are important, sure school is important, sure alumni is important. All of that is important, but none of that is more important than landing a job. That's the MOST important. And if you go to the right school, get the right grades, get a summer SA and have tones of alumni and still do not have a job at graduation or nine months later, does any of that really matter?

How many articles do we need to see saying X a top law school grad, could not find a job to realize that top law school, just like networking, is not the magic built alone. You need to combine everything. The simple fact of the matter is I did not go to a top law school, I did have good grades but never needed them, but I do have a job. A job I like, a job that pays well, and a job that came to me not the other way around.

The only reason I have a job as compared to some of my classmates is that I did EVERYTHING I could to make sure I had a job. It's as simple as that, finding a job was my priority number one through all of law school. For many students its secondary to law school, that's fine and dandy, but don't be surprised then when you don't have a job after law school.

Finding a job is a fulltime job. It should be treated as such, and should start the day you start law school. law school gives you the JD, it does not in an of its self give you the law job.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:53 pm

Cleareyes wrote:the local bar association kickball game every Thursday evening.

Kickball is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: I regret having gone to law school

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:57 pm

altoidz wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:Not ornery, just very disappointed in someone.


yeah probably in me. its okay. ill handle it with my cats aggressiveness

Your cat is hypnotizing. If I stared at it straight for 5 minutes, you could convince me to go out and flip tricks in the back of Denny's at 3 in the morning.




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