Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

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TOMaHULK
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby TOMaHULK » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:42 pm

rad law wrote:
TOMaHULK wrote:I respect your thoughts. However, I must add that I have 2 friends that went to Barry and now have respectable jobs. I also have a buddy that went to Nova and got a decent job with the DA down in Miami Dade. So all hope isn't lost. But again, I don't disagree with you. I just think there's exceptions to every rule. Thank you for your thoughts. Note: I live down the road from Stetson, maybe their PT program... :wink:


Did they graduate before or after the economy imploded?

Stetson PT is still not worth it without a massive scholarship.


They all graduated 2 years ago. So after the economy crapped out.

TOMaHULK
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby TOMaHULK » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:45 pm

darby girl wrote:
rad law wrote:
TOMaHULK wrote:I'd like to go to Stetson, however I think this may be unobtainable. I'm not looking at schools such as Barry/FAMU (say what you want but they're accredited and ABA approved-plus Public and in-state tuition)/Nova Southeastern/Gulf Coast/Univ of Arkansas/Loloya/Mich State/WVU/Louisville/Charleston/Charlotte/etc-Note: Most of these are best on my LS Predictor possibilities. I'd like to stay in FL and based on my lower numbers I'm actually thinking that FAMU may be my best option (close to family and friends/instate tuition/they're accredited). But Barry in Orlando is also looking good too-although Private tuition.

Just figured I'd share. Yes I know a lot of you are better than me, etc...so please spare me of that. LOL :lol:


FL resident here.

For FL, you have to get into UF, FSU, Miami with close to full tuition, Stetson with close to full tuition, or don't go. This is not elitism, it is the economy. The market is glutted with 11 total schools, T14 plus Vandy and Emory people who want to work here, etc. Median kids at UF are having a tough time. Local govts. are barely hiring. The housing and tourism-based economy is terrible.

Barry - Indicative of the respect it commands, 4(!) firms come for OCI. Not respected. A joke and a swindle. Orlando may be a nice place to draw unemployment from, however.

FAMU - Recently accredited because it has been rocked by scandals. An embarrassment in tax-payer subsidized education, especially the Shirley Cunningham fen-phen scandal. Employers do not take FAMU seriously.

Nova - Another joke. One poster on TLS knows the recent Law Review editor (or someone on exec. board?), who is unemployed. This should be indicative of prospects for the rest of the students.

Hopefully the NA boost can get you in at UF or FSU.


I agree with this. I think FIU is a good median. Def not as good as UF/FSU/Mia/Stetson, and Mia takes the Miami market well, but it is more respected and I believe it is on the rise. Plus it's a LOT cheaper and takes a lot lower numbers.


If you look at the figures, FIU isn't really that much lower (requirements wise) then Stetson or Miami.

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observationalist
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby observationalist » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:51 pm

tkgrrett wrote:[
deadpanic wrote:
rad law wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:True it is not the best school in state, but I'm sorry rad, this is kind of ridiculous. If you have in-state tuition (or a significant scholarship), can't get in Vandy (w/$), don't care about BigLaw, and want to practice in TN, UT is a good option. Tennessee loves their Vols.


I'll give you that most of the Vanderbilt people who did stay in TN stayed in Nashville (about 30 IIRC). So perhaps I am overstating this.

If I had lower numbers and wanted to stay down South, I'd still try Ole Miss, Bama, South Carolina, and a couple others before TN though (if I could pay in-state, obviously).


Bama is much harder to get into than TN. I think I have a secure admission from TN but not even a prayer so much at Bama. :(
TN is a good school and I assume they have a big alumni network.


Actually, I would recommend Memphis over UTenn despite the rankings. The school has a good relationship with Baker, Donelson so you have a shot at a job in both the memphis and nashville ofices. Also, there are quite a few smaller firms in Memphis that take in a few alumni. Also, may have a shot at a few of the decent Little Rock firms(Mitchell Williams, Rose) but not really 100% sure there.


In the interest of sharing what little information we have currently on the job market in Tennessee and coming out of the TN schools, I wanted to share a few highlights from last week's Tennessee Judicial Conference. I sat on a panel with two senior state judges, the new Dean of Belmont law, and Dean Loser from Nashville school of law. I also spoke with the director of Memphis' trial advocacy clinic afterward. All very nice people, all very concerned about the number of lawyers trying to practice in TN and how it's hurting not only new but current attorneys (particularly those with high debt loads). My single strongest piece of advice is that anyone considering these schools do what they can to seek out information on current job placement so that you can accurately figure out what sort of debt you should be taking on.

-Nashville School of Law estimates that about half their grads have 'something' lined up for this year. That's very low for a school where most of the students are already working full-time. I like Nashville SOL as a choice for people who want to practice in Tennessee, in that most grads are older (and therefore more likely to have families and commit to working locally), have strong business networks to help them navigate their way into jobs, and have managed to keep their debt low thanks to low tuition and the fact that they work for school. That said, this is not a great year for jobs in TN. As one panelist remarked, the Bench and Bar would never have even considered hosting a panel on whether or not there are too many lawyers if you were looking at the general opinion of the bar for any year starting from the existence of lawyers and going up through 2008. What I guess the panelist was getting at is that it's crazy to see lawyers actually admitting that there are too many lawyers, to which I agree. That said, it was a great experience and I'm glad to have gotten the chance to relate some of the concerns to the people who will hopefully be hiring all of you in a few years. Hopefully they don't just respond to the crisis by taking protectionist measures (e.g. making the bar exam more difficult so that fewer JDs can actually practice in the state, which ends up screwing over additional ranks of law grads).

-Of the 12 3L students enrolled in Memphis' Trial Advocacy course this year, this is the first time that none of them were able to find jobs by graduation. As I was telling their director, Memphis actually does a good job at reporting median salary statistics that aren't hugely exaggerated (eg six-figure salaries), which helps prospective students plan accordingly. For those of you wishing to see how Memphis was placing when things were good, you can go to our website and check out the new data released by USNews. The most useful columns in the spreadsheet IMO are the median reported salaries combined with the % who reported salaries for each sector. If nothing else it allows you to see what the placement data looks like for a certain subset (probably top performers) of the class. And you can sort the state column to see all the TN schools and then compare the data they reported. Just keep in mind it's for the Class of '08, so things are probably between 20%-50% worse now.

-Belmont School Of Law, in promoting their new program opening up next year, is continuing to focus on stats showing a disproportionately high number of people sitting for the TN bar who attended law school outside the state. This supposedly indicates a high demand from consumers of JDs (you) who want to stay in Tennessee, but end up leaving the state because you 1. can't get in or can't afford or don't want to go to Vanderbilt; and 2. want to go to a more competitive program than the other offerings in the state. Enter Belmont, who plan on offering a competitive program that's going to pursue a number of innovative measures to help their students network with employers and secure jobs in an increasingly competitive market. You can check out their website to get a better idea of what they're planning to do. The main criticisms coming from the judges and attorneys in the room last week is that demand for JDs does not justify opening up another law school unless there are actually jobs for those people to take afterward.

This last point is really important for those of you considering law school in TN and/or wanting to practice here. You have to focus on output components when looking at the strength of a program; it may very well be true that going part-time to Nashville School of Law makes more sense than full-tuition at Ole Miss, even though Nashville may be only giving you a 50/50 shot at a job right now. I urge you to contact the schools that have accepted you and request employment information on this year's graduating class. We are getting ready to make our official request to all 200 ABA-approved law schools, but we won't be asking schools to commit until next February. By that time you will be one semester down looking for your 1L summer jobs.

G'luck to those still trying to make a decision, and rad law it's good to see you being such a strong advocate for Vandy. The Recruitment Handbook should be published sometime in the next month or so, and I encourage you to try and get your hands on a copy so you can see where the Class of 2011 and 2012 are spending their summers.

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romothesavior
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby romothesavior » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:56 pm

Great post, Observationalist, as always.

I'm curious as to how the deans responded to the judges and lawyers who argued that opening another school was a bad idea.

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Grizz
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby Grizz » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:12 pm

observationalist wrote:G'luck to those still trying to make a decision, and rad law it's good to see you being such a strong advocate for Vandy. The Recruitment Handbook should be published sometime in the next month or so, and I encourage you to try and get your hands on a copy so you can see where the Class of 2011 and 2012 are spending their summers.


One man's troll is another man's advocate? :D In any case, I'll for sure try to get a copy of the info when it comes out. Thanks for the heads up.

But seriously, great post, Observationalist. Like Romo, I am curious as to the Belmont response. I'll check their website, too, when I get a chance.

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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby observationalist » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:28 pm

romothesavior wrote:Great post, Observationalist, as always.

I'm curious as to how the deans responded to the judges and lawyers who argued that opening another school was a bad idea.


rad law wrote: Like Romo, I am curious as to the Belmont response. I'll check their website, too, when I get a chance.


Pointed criticism of Belmont wasn't very evident, but I think it was implicit based on the discussion we had. To be honest, I think the whole purpose of the panel (and the reason I was asked to present and join all of them as a co-founder of LST, seeing as I have zero other credentials) was to point out how ridiculous it is that Tennessee is seeing another law school open up when everyone is already complaining about a lack of work. People didn't really ask the hard questions about operating ethically, or holding out the school as offering niche placement ability in the entertainment biz (which does not accept lawyers right out of law school). Our moderator did ask Dean Kinsler if he thought there were too many law schools, but Kinsler's response ("absolutely not") was left alone and we moved on to another question. One attendee pointed out how Belmont's program is still going to put graduates out $100K for full tuition (technically a sticker price of under $100K, at $99,000), and that the school can't justify charging that much unless it's graduates will be able to find jobs that pay at least $60-70K. But Dean Kinsler deflected the comment and instead compared the legal industry to the medical industry, where (in his opinion) a lot of the problems with access to healthcare in the U.S. are the result of the medical profession limiting the number of people who can get their license to practice. Under that line of reasoning, Belmont would actually be doing a service to the community by helping to increase competition among lawyers and thus further lowering the costs of legal services. The TN bar is very collegial and I wasn't expecting to see any big showdowns, so I was happy to see audience members at least asking the questions running through everyone's mind.

One response from Dean Loser was (I think) indicative of how the senior members of the legal community choose to approach the problems facing recent grads. He was asked to comment generally on the job market, after I went into some spiel about how debt is our biggest concern as recent law grads and how people can't necessarily take the legal jobs they want because in non-law jobs like bartending pay better than many entry-level legal jobs. His response was an anecdote (yes, just one) about a family friend who's daughter just graduated from Alabama. The daughter complained about how tough the job market was, so Dean Loser asked the family friend if the daughter had a job. The friend's response was that the daughter was lucky enough to find a job with the largest law firm in Alabama, who gave her not only a job starting around $90K but also gave her a car. Offering up that anecdote as proof that things are not as bad as people are saying they are, he then concluded that cheaper state schools are the way to go for people worried about debt. I don't think the audience bought that as a credited response (given the number of lawyers in the audience who were recent law grads and came up to talk to us afterwards), but like with Kinsler's responses, people left him alone. I would love to see more action being taken by the state bar associations in the realm of reforming legal education, so I guess we can wait and see how they react as the job market continues to worsen.

On a related note, if anyone can figure out which law firm in Alabama pays $90K + car, I encourage you to start sending them resumes/cover letters/fine bottles of whiskey now.

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romothesavior
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby romothesavior » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:31 pm

So in other words, don't expect any changes to the status quo anytime soon. Law schools continue blowing out their nonsense, and no one bats an eye.

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observationalist
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby observationalist » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:36 pm

One more piece of advice coming out of last week's conference and then I have to get back to bar review; Justice Koch (one of the panelists) put in a sincere plug for the Inns of Court here in Tennessee. He mentioned how they are excellent groups through which students can get candid advice from practicing attorneys and judge, so that they are best situated to find work for themselves when they graduate. I know Matthies has made the same suggestion many times before, but I do think it's worth reiterating in this discussion (since many of you will be attending law school in the same city you're looking to practice in). Schools are trying to adapt to the changing legal market by staving off tuition increases and paying graduates to work until we find something more permanent, but schools won't necessarily be able to do so as quickly as each of you can.

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romothesavior
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby romothesavior » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:37 pm

observationalist wrote:One more piece of advice coming out of last week's conference and then I have to get back to bar review; Justice Koch (one of the panelists) put in a sincere plug for the Inns of Court here in Tennessee. He mentioned how they are excellent groups through which students can get candid advice from practicing attorneys and judge, so that they are best situated to find work for themselves when they graduate. I know Matthies has made the same suggestion many times before, but I do think it's worth reiterating in this discussion (since many of you will be attending law school in the same city you're looking to practice in). Schools are trying to adapt to the changing legal market by staving off tuition increases and paying graduates to work until we find something more permanent, but schools won't necessarily be able to do so as quickly as each of you can.


Thank you sir. The first thing I plan to do when I get to STL is to contact the local Inns of Court. Glad to hear some support for matthies' advice.

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Grizz
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby Grizz » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:39 pm

observationalist wrote:But Dean Kinsler deflected the comment and instead compared the legal industry to the medical industry, where (in his opinion) a lot of the problems with access to healthcare in the U.S. are the result of the medical profession limiting the number of people who can get their license to practice. Under that line of reasoning, Belmont would actually be doing a service to the community by helping to increase competition among lawyers and thus further lowering the costs of legal services.


:shock:

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romothesavior
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby romothesavior » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:41 pm

rad law wrote:
observationalist wrote:But Dean Kinsler deflected the comment and instead compared the legal industry to the medical industry, where (in his opinion) a lot of the problems with access to healthcare in the U.S. are the result of the medical profession limiting the number of people who can get their license to practice. Under that line of reasoning, Belmont would actually be doing a service to the community by helping to increase competition among lawyers and thus further lowering the costs of legal services.


:shock:


In other words, we're not really that concerned about our students' ability to find jobs, make a decent salary, or pay back their loans. We just want the checks to keep flowing in. And hey! We're doing a service to the community by providing cheap (or even free!) legal counsel!

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observationalist
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby observationalist » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:49 pm

romothesavior wrote:So in other words, don't expect any changes to the status quo anytime soon. Law schools continue blowing out their nonsense, and no one bats an eye.


It's easy to think nothing is going to change, but I do think there are going to be changes somewhere in the legal community. My concern is that if they're coming down from the state bar associations I don't think they're necessarily going to be all that helpful. The one big change the bar can do is to fail more people taking the bar exam each year, and that seems to be the route they're going to explore here in Tennessee. The problem with this is that you still have the same number of people who earned their JDs as you did before you made the bar exam tougher; all you did is ensure that more of these debt-laden individuals don't end up in the legal community. A few of the other changes discussed focused solely on practicing attorneys, like finding ways to make the business of running a small law firm cheaper and figuring out how to encourage attorneys to work in more rural areas that actually are in need of more lawyers. According to Justice Koch, there's actually one county in TN (Moore) that has zero attorneys currently active. While he was partially joking, one of the solutions Dean Loser mentioned was to make sure Moore county has at least one lawyer, and actually two lawyers so that they can compete.

In my opinion it's a far better solution to get the law schools to change how they report employment information, so that the market for JDs is sufficiently informed about the current job market. Once that happens schools will begin rapidly adapting their models to make sure more grads are getting paid legal jobs (as opposed to paid nonlegal jobs, or unpaid legal jobs). We're working on getting schools on board with a new standard, and hopefully we'll have something to show for it in a few months.

But yeah, in the meantime I don't think ABA-approved schools are going to voluntarily shrink class sizes or hand out salary cuts to their faculty without some strong incentives in place. I think Vandy has been doing a great job with the Public Service Initiative and with making sure 70% of the class receives scholarships, but they can and should continue to do better.

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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby Grizz » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:54 pm

observationalist wrote:According to Justice Koch, there's actually one county in TN (Moore) that has zero attorneys currently active.


Dibs.

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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby observationalist » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:00 pm

romothesavior wrote:
rad law wrote:
observationalist wrote:But Dean Kinsler deflected the comment and instead compared the legal industry to the medical industry, where (in his opinion) a lot of the problems with access to healthcare in the U.S. are the result of the medical profession limiting the number of people who can get their license to practice. Under that line of reasoning, Belmont would actually be doing a service to the community by helping to increase competition among lawyers and thus further lowering the costs of legal services.


:shock:


In other words, we're not really that concerned about our students' ability to find jobs, make a decent salary, or pay back their loans. We just want the checks to keep flowing in. And hey! We're doing a service to the community by providing cheap (or even free!) legal counsel!


One other point about this (ok two points) that I thought was interesting and then I really do need to go. One of the panelists stated that, in order for an ABA-approved law school to keep its doors open, the lowest it can charge in annual tuition absent state support or enormous endowments is $25,000 per year. Apparently, that's the threshold amount needed from each student in order to comply with all of the accreditation requirements for resources. So regardless of how open and honest a law school chooses to be in disclosing where its graduates go, grads from ABA-approved schools are going to graduate with at least $75,000 in debt (except for scholly recipients).

It's quite possible that Belmont secures jobs for every one of the graduates in its inaugural class, and at high enough salaries for each to manage their debt loads. But it's also quite possible that they perform horribly in the market, that fewer than half the class finds a legal job, and that a significant number of graduates end up feeling cheated. If the latter happens, the question is going to be whether the school will disclose those facts in a manner that makes future prospectives fully aware of the risks involved. As a new school they get some leeway because they don't really have any stats to hide.

But I do think the bar needs to come down hard on Belmont if the school holds itself out as capable of placing grads into entertainment law. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I've been told there are no jobs for entertainment lawyers in Nashville unless you've been practicing for awhile doing contract work and manage to get a break. So unless Belmont is actually going to create new jobs where none previously existed (presumably thanks to UG alumni in the biz), then they cannot ethically advertise their program as helping grads get into entertainment law. This came up before in the Belmont thread, but it's worth reiterating in case school administrators are watching.

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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby D. H2Oman » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:01 pm

rad law wrote:
observationalist wrote:According to Justice Koch, there's actually one county in TN (Moore) that has zero attorneys currently active.


Dibs.


Yeah I don't think anyone is going to fight you on that.

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observationalist
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby observationalist » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:02 pm

rad law wrote:
observationalist wrote:According to Justice Koch, there's actually one county in TN (Moore) that has zero attorneys currently active.


Dibs.


Careful though rad... the reasons why there are none currently active is that two or three just recently died and another couple had their licenses suspended. Something (probably a curse against lawyers) is afoot in Moore County.

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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby observationalist » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:06 pm

K, I'm out... g'luck to everyone, and be sure to bug the schools for employment information on Class of 2010 (and 11) before you commit.

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romothesavior
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby romothesavior » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:17 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:
rad law wrote:
observationalist wrote:According to Justice Koch, there's actually one county in TN (Moore) that has zero attorneys currently active.


Dibs.


Yeah I don't think anyone is going to fight you on that.


My god... the similarity between your avatar and RL is striking!

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Grizz
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby Grizz » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:24 pm

romothesavior wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:
rad law wrote:
observationalist wrote:According to Justice Koch, there's actually one county in TN (Moore) that has zero attorneys currently active.


Dibs.


Yeah I don't think anyone is going to fight you on that.


My god... the similarity between your avatar and RL is striking!


Me and the Beibs both love 15 yr. old girls.









But if anyone from LS or C&F is reading, I am NOT serious.

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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby fenway » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:48 pm

romothesavior wrote:
fenway wrote:romo, you should have your own thread where people can consolidate their hopes and dreams while you lay in the cyber cut ready to nintendo-duck-hunt the f*ck out of all the hapless chimeras that are brought before you


That's fine. Rad law can be the goofy smiling dog who fetches the fallen ducks.

Also, my hopes and dreams were also Nintendo-duck hunted when I picked WUSTL. So no hard feelings.



haha cmon man, you can't duck hunt yourself--you aren't on the screen. besides, WUSTL is a great school. Your cynical neuroticism can only go so far.

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romothesavior
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby romothesavior » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:52 pm

Haha, for the record, I love WUSTL and think it is a great school. I only rag on it sometimes because I love self-deprecating humor and I'm trying to conform to the TLS mentality.

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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby fenway » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:55 pm

equal opportunity hater. i can dig it

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romothesavior
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby romothesavior » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:59 pm

fenway wrote:equal opportunity hater. i can dig it


PS. I love your tar.

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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby fenway » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:01 pm

he comes over for bagels sometimes

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romothesavior
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Re: Chances for people w/ lower numbers!

Postby romothesavior » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:08 pm

fenway wrote:he comes over for bagels sometimes


I had to turn him on after seeing your tar. Listening to some "That's Why I'm Here."




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