top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

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beaniew
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby beaniew » Sun Jun 27, 2010 12:23 am

I am a horrible reader. I scored a 166 on the LSAT, and all but one of the questions I missed were on the reading comprehension section.

I write well, when necessary. On law school exams, I write very directly in the active voice using short sentences.

My exam writing style is as follows: Adverese possession requires (i) an actual entry; (ii) giving exclusive possession; (iii) under a claim of right; (iv) adverse to the owner; (v) for the statutory period.

Here, there A's entry onto the otherwise vacant lot satisifed elements one and two. Because the owner did not give his express, or implied consent, to A, his possession was adverse to the owner. A remained on the land for 20 years thereby satisfying the statutory period.

Thus, whether the A has acquired B's property via adverse possession will depend upon which jurisdictional approach the court adopts. If the court adopts NJ's approach, which does not require adverse possessor to subjectively believe his possession is adverse to the owner, then the court will find that A acquired title to B's land via AP. If the court adopts the Maine Doctrine, which requires the adverse possessor to subjectively believe his possession is adverse to the owner, then the court will find that A did not acquire the land via AP.

A will argue that the court should adopt the NJ approach as a matter of public policy. The NJ should be favored because it does not encourage claimants to lie, etc.

B will argue . . .

The court will likely side with A because X, Y and Z and hold . . .

I totally made that shit up - my rule statement is not accurate and my analysis diverges from what the beginning of the answer would indicate as the facts. I just wanted to give an idea how I write exam answers.

corporatelaw87
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby corporatelaw87 » Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:00 am

For Understanding Criminal Law (by Dressler?) did you use the student edition or the normal edition? I think I am going to use E&Es for everything but this class for the semester (I know you don't like E&Es but too many people told me Glannon is great). Also, do you outline while you read or read everything then go back and outline? Thanks for your help!!!!!

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solotee
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby solotee » Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:22 am

Thanks for the example. Very concise and organized.

rando
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby rando » Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:09 am

beaniew wrote:@ rando. That is your opinion and I respect it. You should respect mine even if you disagree.


I actually think all of the advice given here so far has been right on. Except about the E&E's.

And I know you clarified that it is only if you NEED something like those then you will have trouble making it to the top 10% but this clearly goes for pretty much every commercial outline out there. Supplements should supplement.

Just remember that when you make categorical statements, there are 0L's taking it as gospel.

Again. Other than that sidetrack I think most of the stuff on here is really solid. Especially the stuff about studying solo vs. groups. I only studied in groups to go over practice exams too. Otherwise pretty much just a time suck.

2009 Prospective
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby 2009 Prospective » Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:35 am

beaniew wrote:@lawrence. You may have done just as well without E and E. I said if you NEED something as BASIC as E and E, you are probably not competing for the top 10. I didn't say if you used E and E, you are not competitive. There is a difference. I, too, used E and E, but I often said it down after only a couple minutes because I found it a little to basic.

I worked practice problems too, but I chose to work practice problems from past exams. Especially exams with answers. This was much more helpful for ME. I am not saying it is objectively more useful.

.



I pretty much agree with this. I found E&Es to be marginally useful at best. One thing I think many advice threads often overlook (though not this one) is the importance of listening very closely to what your prof's say in class.

beaniew
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby beaniew » Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:12 pm

@ corporate law.

I used dressler understanding for crim law as well as Delaney's crim law supplement. I like delaney's because he gives really good hypos and then provides a model answer, a decent answer, and a crap answer. This allows you to see what professors want you to do on the exam. I highly recommend it.

@ Rando. Its not that the E and E's suck. They just didn't live up to their potential. In particular, I thought that there were too many hypos, some of which really just made overtly obvious points. That stated, I found that about 3 to 5 out of the 15, or so, hypos at the end of each section were useful. Overall, the E and E are useful - the fluff kind of turned me off.

I second that Glannon is the man. I really liked some of the glannon guides - like glannon fed civ pro multiple choice supplement. I also liked any EE authored by Glannon - they are a cut above the other EEs.

I also recommend the law in a flash series for students that learn best by hypos and explanations. In my opinion, these illustrate more of the nuances than the E and E hypos. There is too some fluff in the flash series. But overall they are worth while. I bought them, but never found time to use them.


I also agree that it is really important to listen to what the prof has to say - NOT what the students have to say. I never wrote student comments in my notes. I always wrote professor comments in my notes. I definitely found that knowing a couple of the one liners/obscure topics that were dropped only in class helped me get A's instead of A-/B+s.

Finally read the Fing cases twice. Read every note case. Second semester I paid more attention to some notes cases than I did the main cases. They really help you understand how the law applies to fringe/unique/different facts than the main case. Of course, I did have a prof or two where the prof only focused on BLL. But I still found it was helpful to really master the cases even for those classes.

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savagedm
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby savagedm » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:11 pm

beaniew wrote:@ corporate law.

I used dressler understanding for crim law as well as Delaney's crim law supplement. I like delaney's because he gives really good hypos and then provides a model answer, a decent answer, and a crap answer. This allows you to see what professors want you to do on the exam. I highly recommend it.

@ Rando. Its not that the E and E's suck. They just didn't live up to their potential. In particular, I thought that there were too many hypos, some of which really just made overtly obvious points. That stated, I found that about 3 to 5 out of the 15, or so, hypos at the end of each section were useful. Overall, the E and E are useful - the fluff kind of turned me off.

I second that Glannon is the man. I really liked some of the glannon guides - like glannon fed civ pro multiple choice supplement. I also liked any EE authored by Glannon - they are a cut above the other EEs.

I also recommend the law in a flash series for students that learn best by hypos and explanations. In my opinion, these illustrate more of the nuances than the E and E hypos. There is too some fluff in the flash series. But overall they are worth while. I bought them, but never found time to use them.


I also agree that it is really important to listen to what the prof has to say - NOT what the students have to say. I never wrote student comments in my notes. I always wrote professor comments in my notes. I definitely found that knowing a couple of the one liners/obscure topics that were dropped only in class helped me get A's instead of A-/B+s.

Finally read the Fing cases twice. Read every note case. Second semester I paid more attention to some notes cases than I did the main cases. They really help you understand how the law applies to fringe/unique/different facts than the main case. Of course, I did have a prof or two where the prof only focused on BLL. But I still found it was helpful to really master the cases even for those classes.


When I first saw your posts beanie, I was skeptical because of the amount of trolls we have on this forum claiming to know everything. But after 3 pages I can say you are giving some solid advice and mucho kudos to you. Out of your 25 posts, nearly all have been something of pretty decent substance.... try not to overdo it and get jaded like the rest of us, we turned into trolls after trying to only help hahaha ;) Great work though!

rando
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby rando » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:12 pm

beaniew wrote:
Finally read the Fing cases twice. Read every note case. Second semester I paid more attention to some notes cases than I did the main cases. They really help you understand how the law applies to fringe/unique/different facts than the main case. Of course, I did have a prof or two where the prof only focused on BLL. But I still found it was helpful to really master the cases even for those classes.


More power to you for reading the note cases. Really. But entirely unnecessary. Depending on your casebook, the notes themselves are often entirely unnecessary. Some might say that going out of your way to look up the note cases on westlaw and read them all borders on batshit crazy, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just say there are better uses of your time.

Lawrence
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby Lawrence » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:15 pm

2009 Prospective wrote:
beaniew wrote:@lawrence. You may have done just as well without E and E. I said if you NEED something as BASIC as E and E, you are probably not competing for the top 10. I didn't say if you used E and E, you are not competitive. There is a difference. I, too, used E and E, but I often said it down after only a couple minutes because I found it a little to basic.

I worked practice problems too, but I chose to work practice problems from past exams. Especially exams with answers. This was much more helpful for ME. I am not saying it is objectively more useful.

.



I pretty much agree with this. I found E&Es to be marginally useful at best. One thing I think many advice threads often overlook (though not this one) is the importance of listening very closely to what your prof's say in class.


+1 Listen, and then give them back what they repeat on the exam. One of the biggest parts of doing well is understanding what your professor's views on the material are.

beaniew
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby beaniew » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:01 pm

@rando

1st semester I would have agreed with you on the notes cases things. It really depends upon the subject, the prof, and the casebook. I felt like there were some gems in the torts notes cases. I never read a single notes case for civ pro or crim law. It was definitely helpful for torts and contracts. My prof from con law tested over more notes cases than main cases - he treated them equally, but their were more notes cases in comparison.

For torts, the casebooks I saw did not really address duty to third parties. There were, however, a series of notes cases on this subject. On our exam, there were multiple duty to third party issues and I used several notes cases. I got an A.

But the notes cases comment really hinges on, as said above, prof-topic-case book. Your experience was clearly different than mine. I guess the takeaway is be open to notes cases, they can help you understand the material better. But ask yourself what your prof wants/expects, etc.

beaniew
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby beaniew » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:03 pm

@rando. Looking up notes case on westlaw is retarded stupid. The cool thing about a notes case is that they are often only two lines in the casebook. One line for facts. One line for the holding. Sometimes one line, eg. See X case, where the court held Y for Z facts. What is not to love about a summary like that?

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Bustang
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby Bustang » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:09 pm

Can you A: explain the difference between law summaries & E&E's and B: (I suppose again) why you liked these supplements more than the E&E's? Did the summer reading you did help you with your outlining/note taking the first few weeks? That's honestly what I am the most nervous about - Figuring out what is important in the first few weeks of class while I'm outlining. That's what I was hoping the supplements would help me do.

rando
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby rando » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:14 pm

beaniew wrote:@rando. Looking up notes case on westlaw is retarded stupid. The cool thing about a notes case is that they are often only two lines in the casebook. One line for facts. One line for the holding. Sometimes one line, eg. See X case, where the court held Y for Z facts. What is not to love about a summary like that?


And it all comes together. I have just never heard the notes section referred to as notes cases. I assumed you were talking about actually looking up the cases referenced in the notes and reading them. Which is, well, retarded.

btw. I am a soon to be 3L. I know what the notes after the cases are :wink:

So then. Yes. I will have to agree. that reading the notes and focusing on the intricacies that affect whatever subject matter you are referencing is very beneficial and something that I definitely focused on a lot. And I think a lot of people don't take the time to read that. Which plays to the benefit of people who do come exam time.

beaniew
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby beaniew » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:22 pm

@ rando. Sorry - my language should have been more tight.

howcani111
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby howcani111 » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:25 pm

are you going to transfer?

beaniew
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby beaniew » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:31 pm

I have submitted transfer apps, but I am only interested in one particular T6. If they offer me a spot, I go. If not, I am cool staying at my school. I am not the T14 or bust type.

howcani111
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby howcani111 » Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:10 pm

beaniew wrote:I have submitted transfer apps, but I am only interested in one particular T6. If they offer me a spot, I go. If not, I am cool staying at my school. I am not the T14 or bust type.


GOOD LUCK!!!!

Hey-O
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby Hey-O » Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:41 pm

As a 0L I think this sounds like solid advice and I intend on really using it. I'm going to print out this entire thread and use to set up a study system. Thanks!

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billyez
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby billyez » Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:46 pm

Thanks OP for the advice.

howcani111
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby howcani111 » Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:48 pm

OP you should make a article. That would be in the hall of TLS fame.

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Thirteen
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby Thirteen » Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:04 pm

Thanks for the great advice, and good luck with the transfer application!

beaniew
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby beaniew » Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:51 pm

Another tidbit. For me, there are two reasons to outline from day one. First, I learned the material through extracting the law, organizing it into discrete topics, and by restating things in my own words. Second, you absolutely MUST have finished outlines a week before finals begins, or by the time the reading period starts.

During the reading period, I briefed my outline into a condensed format. Organized by topic and subtopics. On this "cheat sheat" I had rule statements for every law I thought I would be tested on. They were organized so as to be highly visably accessible.

On exam day, I brought in my full outline (with detailed index), my condensed outlines, and two checklists - one for cases and one for salient issues. Ideally, when you first confront a hypo - you skim it once to get the big picture, and then dive in and start identifying issues. I generally, could not resist the temptation, and dove in instead. After listing all the issues I could, I would glance at my checklists to trigger my memory to see if I missed anything.

Next, the ideal student would outline the answer. I didnt outline answers - or if I did, I never had more than a list of headings - one for each issue. I like this latter approach for exams that you know will be hard to finish in time. It is good to have all the issues out in front of you, so you know how to budget time, and when to move on. analyzing the crap out of one issue and running out of time on the others seriously hurts your grade.

For each issue: I put an underlined subheading stating my conclusion - if any. e.g. Bob is liable for voluntary manslaugher for killing wife after walking in on her screwing neighbor.

After the underlined heading, I phrased I highly detail issue statement. e.g. The issue is whether Bob is liable for voluntary manslaughter when he beat his wife over the head after walking in on her having sex with the neighbor.

Next is the rule: Here, you will dump your memorized rule statement, or QUICKLY lift it from you briefed outline

Now analysis. D will argue X. Prosecutor will argue Y. Court will find Z because A. B, and C. Don't just make X, Y, Z, A, B, C up. Look at the facts given to you. Use the KEY facts that are deliberately given to you. The key is to interweave the law with the LEGALLY RELEVANT facts. Keep your analysis really tight (constantly ask yourself if what you are typing is relevant). Dont go off on tangents. Dont get creative (unless policy question). You prof wants to know that you can identify legal conflicts, that you can accurately state the law, and that you can apply it and generate conclusions. Don't get fancy.

Policy - only if it strengthened my argument, or was easy to make a point.

Conclusion.

Space between each part of the answer. Long paragraphs are not fun for the grader. Keep everything separate.

In summary: 1) underlined heading which is a conclusion (or as close as it comes to a conclusion, if there is no firm conclusion): 2) issue statement; 3) rule statement for the issue; 4) application of the law to the facts, making arguments and counterarguments with the KEY FACTS given to you; 5) policy - if any; 6) breif conclusion.

I showed up to exams early. Ideally, I wanted a free seat on each side of me. One for my outline and condensed outline (6 pages tops) and the other for my checklists, scratch paper, etc. I kept books under the table just in case. Next to my list of cases - I had a page for each one of them, so that I would not waste time looking for the page. I rarely used this, but when I did, I was able to do so quickly.

This is kind of overkill, but the competition is stiff at the top and you need every point you can get to differentiate yourself.

rando
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby rando » Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:00 pm

beaniew wrote:Another tidbit. For me, there are two reasons to outline from day one. First, I learned the material through extracting the law, organizing it into discrete topics, and by restating things in my own words. Second, you absolutely MUST have finished outlines a week before finals begins, or by the time the reading period starts.

During the reading period, I briefed my outline into a condensed format. Organized by topic and subtopics. On this "cheat sheat" I had rule statements for every law I thought I would be tested on. They were organized so as to be highly visably accessible.

On exam day, I brought in my full outline (with detailed index), my condensed outlines, and two checklists - one for cases and one for salient issues. Ideally, when you first confront a hypo - you skim it once to get the big picture, and then dive in and start identifying issues. I generally, could not resist the temptation, and dove in instead. After listing all the issues I could, I would glance at my checklists to trigger my memory to see if I missed anything.

Next, the ideal student would outline the answer. I didnt outline answers - or if I did, I never had more than a list of headings - one for each issue. I like this latter approach for exams that you know will be hard to finish in time. It is good to have all the issues out in front of you, so you know how to budget time, and when to move on. analyzing the crap out of one issue and running out of time on the others seriously hurts your grade.

For each issue: I put an underlined subheading stating my conclusion - if any. e.g. Bob is liable for voluntary manslaugher for killing wife after walking in on her screwing neighbor.

After the underlined heading, I phrased I highly detail issue statement. e.g. The issue is whether Bob is liable for voluntary manslaughter when he beat his wife over the head after walking in on her having sex with the neighbor.

Next is the rule: Here, you will dump your memorized rule statement, or QUICKLY lift it from you briefed outline

Now analysis. D will argue X. Prosecutor will argue Y. Court will find Z because A. B, and C. Don't just make X, Y, Z, A, B, C up. Look at the facts given to you. Use the KEY facts that are deliberately given to you. The key is to interweave the law with the LEGALLY RELEVANT facts. Keep your analysis really tight (constantly ask yourself if what you are typing is relevant). Dont go off on tangents. Dont get creative (unless policy question). You prof wants to know that you can identify legal conflicts, that you can accurately state the law, and that you can apply it and generate conclusions. Don't get fancy.

Policy - only if it strengthened my argument, or was easy to make a point.

Conclusion.

Space between each part of the answer. Long paragraphs are not fun for the grader. Keep everything separate.

In summary: 1) underlined heading which is a conclusion (or as close as it comes to a conclusion, if there is no firm conclusion): 2) issue statement; 3) rule statement for the issue; 4) application of the law to the facts, making arguments and counterarguments with the KEY FACTS given to you; 5) policy - if any; 6) breif conclusion.

I showed up to exams early. Ideally, I wanted a free seat on each side of me. One for my outline and condensed outline (6 pages tops) and the other for my checklists, scratch paper, etc. I kept books under the table just in case. Next to my list of cases - I had a page for each one of them, so that I would not waste time looking for the page. I rarely used this, but when I did, I was able to do so quickly.

This is kind of overkill, but the competition is stiff at the top and you need every point you can get to differentiate yourself.


Credited by at least one person.

I had three outlines as well. One big one that I never looked at on test day. One condensed version that I would only look at if I got in a jam and couldn't remember the details of an issue. And a checklist, which I used to make sure I hit everything.

And agree with Beaniew that you have to be done with outlining well in advance so that you can spend that time actually applying the law to facts with practice Q's.

beaniew
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby beaniew » Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:11 pm

thanks Rando for pointing out what I forgot. Use you fing outline before you get to the test. That is why it must be done before finals. I saw many students still working on outlines well into finals. At that stage, what is the point. If you finish your outline the day before the final, you will be too unfamiliar with it on test day to use it. And reading period, should be devoted mostly to working practice exams and questions.

solidsnake
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Re: top 2% at competitive T1 taking questions/giving advice

Postby solidsnake » Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:31 pm

Top 1% at a t20-30 (fluctuates every year). The advice here is mostly credited. Particularly, OP's advice that students should take very detailed notes and listen actively in class. Your prof is a goldmine of input that you are expected to process and apply on exams (output). My exam answers, while having exhaustive factual analysis, seemed quite a bit more nuanced and theory-rich than OP's examples ITT -- even on straight issue spotters. Simply applying correct law to facts doesn't yield any higher than an A- at my school, aside from in civ pro, and I suspect would yield only a B+ median at a t6. Your classes will principally revolve around policy discussions and you should be able, again, to use those inputs to produce output -- and your market is the prof; so tailor your answer to fit her preferences, based on ideological and philosophical profiling. Your notes and time spent in office hours will provide the datum to induce those conclusions. 1L was a blast. Enjoy it.




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