USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

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corporatelaw87
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby corporatelaw87 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:58 pm

I think people don't realize that the average college graduate makes millions of dollars over a life time. Let's you make $100,000 a year for 40 years, so that's 4 million dollars after taxes lets say 2.5 million. So, is $200,000 of debt over a lifetime really that much? I know it's a pain to pay off, but it's not like your going to be living in a box because of law school. Also, I know you guys are saying what about the lawyers that make 60 K a year. Well I am talking about the avg. lawyer. I got 100,000 from the Dept. of Labor., which actually gives median, not average.

TTTGrad
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby TTTGrad » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:04 pm

corporatelaw87 wrote:I think people don't realize that the average college graduate makes millions of dollars over a life time. Let's you make $100,000 a year for 40 years, so that's 4 million dollars after taxes lets say 2.5 million. So, is $200,000 of debt over a lifetime really that much? I know it's a pain to pay off, but it's not like your going to be living in a box because of law school. Also, I know you guys are saying what about the lawyers that make 60 K a year. Well I am talking about the avg. lawyer. I got 100,000 from the Dept. of Labor., which actually gives median, not average.



You forgot to add another $160K (8% per annum) in compounded interest on the $200K student loan (assuming you pay it back in 10 years) or $320K in interest on top of the $200K principal if you pay it back in 20 years. Yeah, $520K is a drop in the bucket.

09042014
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:07 pm

animalcrkrs wrote:From the comment section...c/o 2011...

-Top third, top 20 school, no offers, no responses from 184 resumes sent out (thus far).
(Law Student of MN)

ouch.


Top 33% at UMN was iffy before the economy shat itself.

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Ty Webb
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby Ty Webb » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:08 pm

TTTGrad wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:
TTTGrad wrote:I know by now many of you kids are committed to taking the plunge and enrolling in law school. There is a false mystique about the legal "profession" that has been propagated by the media and Hollywood which I am sure has influenced many parents in encouraging their offspring to go to law school in order to learn the "skills" that will make them rich and enable them to set the world on fire. Fine, take the dive, waste three years of your life, opportunity costs, and in most cases, become a life-long indentured servant to Sallie Mae.

Today I came across a USNWR article that discusses the increasing difficulty of law grads in securing legal employment. Now personally I don't put any stock in what USNWR has to say (unlike many of you lemmings), so I figure I would be courteous and share with you the article which I believe highlights the mistake of enrolling in law school today. Enjoy!

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... l?PageNr=1


Opportunity cost. lolwrongnumber.

For a history degree holder, the only opportunity I'm trading in is a life of coaching high school football and teaching geography at some bullshit South Carolina private school named after a prolific 1800s racist (Robert E. Lee Academy, James F. Byrnes Academy, Jefferson Davis Academy, Thomas Heyward Academy, Dillon Christian Academy - wait, Christians aren't racist!). These 1960s creations designed to give scared white families a chance to avoid sending their kids to school with "coloreds".

Being a slave to Sallie Mae (potentially) isn't much worse than being tied down to a life of small town worthlessness.

I tend to think many DON'T GO TO LAWSCHOOL posts exaggerate the alternative options for many students. As someone who has always wanted to be a lawyer, and who took the "pre-law track" (horseshit) at a top-25 public, I don't have other even $50k options waiting for me.



Many kids still don't get the concept of opportunity costs lost as a result of attending law school.

If a college grad is making $40K a year that is $120K lost in wages over 3 years. Add the costs of obtaining a law degree in the NY metro area under this scenario:

Tuition: $48K(Fordham, BLS or Seton Hall) + $25K (COL in NYC)=$73K x 3 years=$219K

If you are paying sticker, your total losses will be around $219K + $10K (bar exam loan) +$120K (lost wages)=$349K
Assuming you even get a half scholarship ($24K a year), you are still wasting $49K a year x 3 =$147K


Add the lost of employment wages to your law school cost and you have lost a combined $267K oh and let's not forget about another $10K for the bar exam loan and your loss is $277K.

Not to mention, the three years of law school are arguably a waste of time as you don't learn any practical skills. Thinking like a lawyer, knowing how to do searches on lexis/westlaw and writing briefs for moot court are not enough skills to hit the ground running and expect a client to pay you.

I have never said don't go to law school. If your dream has been to become a lawyer (because you can argue your way out of a paperbag) or your parents have convinced you that you will be the next Ronald Dworkin, be my guest but when things don't work out for you, don't cry to Congress for a bailout. You have been exposed to the risks and by enrolling in law school and most of you have thumbed your noses at the truth and have decided to act recklessly.

Lastly, you may think you are a loser for being in a dead end job but it beats seeing your parents on youtube complaining about how their pride and joy can't find a job 2 years out of law school and lives at home at the age of 30 something. Would you want this to be your dad 5 years from now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COFtWCbz ... re=related


I don't get the concept of opportunity cost? The bolded ($40k per year) indicates that you *still* don't understand the realities of the bachelor degree job market.

Try cutting that $40k in half. And don't look now, but it's tied to a profession where you have ZERO (NONE, ZILCH) hope of maknig anything above $35k.

Also, your use of extremes to illustrate your point walks the line between funny and sickening.

Sure, let's pick the three most expensive schools in the country (two offering arguably the worst job prospects) in the most expensive city in the world.

Then let's use the extreme anecdotal video evidence to reinforce our scare tactics.

To answer your question: no, the prospect of failure doesn't scare me. Not when it's balanced against the absolute certainty of scrapping the barrel that is the alternative.

TTTGrad
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby TTTGrad » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:17 pm

Ty Webb wrote:
TTTGrad wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:
TTTGrad wrote:I know by now many of you kids are committed to taking the plunge and enrolling in law school. There is a false mystique about the legal "profession" that has been propagated by the media and Hollywood which I am sure has influenced many parents in encouraging their offspring to go to law school in order to learn the "skills" that will make them rich and enable them to set the world on fire. Fine, take the dive, waste three years of your life, opportunity costs, and in most cases, become a life-long indentured servant to Sallie Mae.

Today I came across a USNWR article that discusses the increasing difficulty of law grads in securing legal employment. Now personally I don't put any stock in what USNWR has to say (unlike many of you lemmings), so I figure I would be courteous and share with you the article which I believe highlights the mistake of enrolling in law school today. Enjoy!

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... l?PageNr=1


Opportunity cost. lolwrongnumber.

For a history degree holder, the only opportunity I'm trading in is a life of coaching high school football and teaching geography at some bullshit South Carolina private school named after a prolific 1800s racist (Robert E. Lee Academy, James F. Byrnes Academy, Jefferson Davis Academy, Thomas Heyward Academy, Dillon Christian Academy - wait, Christians aren't racist!). These 1960s creations designed to give scared white families a chance to avoid sending their kids to school with "coloreds".

Being a slave to Sallie Mae (potentially) isn't much worse than being tied down to a life of small town worthlessness.

I tend to think many DON'T GO TO LAWSCHOOL posts exaggerate the alternative options for many students. As someone who has always wanted to be a lawyer, and who took the "pre-law track" (horseshit) at a top-25 public, I don't have other even $50k options waiting for me.



Many kids still don't get the concept of opportunity costs lost as a result of attending law school.

If a college grad is making $40K a year that is $120K lost in wages over 3 years. Add the costs of obtaining a law degree in the NY metro area under this scenario:

Tuition: $48K(Fordham, BLS or Seton Hall) + $25K (COL in NYC)=$73K x 3 years=$219K

If you are paying sticker, your total losses will be around $219K + $10K (bar exam loan) +$120K (lost wages)=$349K
Assuming you even get a half scholarship ($24K a year), you are still wasting $49K a year x 3 =$147K


Add the lost of employment wages to your law school cost and you have lost a combined $267K oh and let's not forget about another $10K for the bar exam loan and your loss is $277K.

Not to mention, the three years of law school are arguably a waste of time as you don't learn any practical skills. Thinking like a lawyer, knowing how to do searches on lexis/westlaw and writing briefs for moot court are not enough skills to hit the ground running and expect a client to pay you.

I have never said don't go to law school. If your dream has been to become a lawyer (because you can argue your way out of a paperbag) or your parents have convinced you that you will be the next Ronald Dworkin, be my guest but when things don't work out for you, don't cry to Congress for a bailout. You have been exposed to the risks and by enrolling in law school and most of you have thumbed your noses at the truth and have decided to act recklessly.

Lastly, you may think you are a loser for being in a dead end job but it beats seeing your parents on youtube complaining about how their pride and joy can't find a job 2 years out of law school and lives at home at the age of 30 something. Would you want this to be your dad 5 years from now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COFtWCbz ... re=related


I don't get the concept of opportunity cost? The bolded ($40k per year) indicates that you *still* don't understand the realities of the bachelor degree job market.

Try cutting that $40k in half. And don't look now, but it's tied to a profession where you have ZERO (NONE, ZILCH) hope of maknig anything above $35k.

Also, your use of extremes to illustrate your point walks the line between funny and sickening.

Sure, let's pick the three most expensive schools in the country (two offering arguably the worst job prospects) in the most expensive city in the world.

Then let's use the extreme anecdotal video evidence to reinforce our scare tactics.

To answer your question: no, the prospect of failure doesn't scare me. Not when it's balanced against the absolute certainty of scrapping the barrel that is the alternative.



I graduated college in 1991. I only had a liberal arts degree from a Tier 2 school and my starting salary was $35K at an entry level position. Don't tell me starting salaries are $20K/yr. twenty years later when the cost of education has quadrupled. What that should tell you is that the value of education is shite compared to the earnings it brings you nowadays. A trade school diploma reaps more rewards. Shit my landscapper clears $200K a year. What makes you think a law degree will make it any better? Law compensation has always been bi-modal. $160K on one end, $30K-50K on the other end. The $160K jobs are shrinking and midlaw won't take recent law grads which means you will have to compete heavily to work as an Obama soldier or shitlaw. Ok, go ahead and take on 6 figure debt if you want to make $30K a year. At least that is $10K more than what you claim you make now.

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acrossthelake
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby acrossthelake » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:26 pm

Some people still think they have a somewhat decent shot at making the happy end of the bimodal distribution.

09042014
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:39 pm

acrossthelake wrote:Some people still think they have a somewhat decent shot at making the happy end of the bimodal distribution.


You certainly do have a more than decent shot.

Also I hate you.

corporatelaw87
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby corporatelaw87 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:40 pm

I think someone is just bitter.

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acrossthelake
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby acrossthelake » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:00 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Some people still think they have a somewhat decent shot at making the happy end of the bimodal distribution.


You certainly do have a more than decent shot.

Also I hate you.


Aww, but Desert Fox, I don't hate you. And often find your contributions on threads fun to read. :(

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Veyron
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby Veyron » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:03 pm

New York to 190!!!

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TheTopBloke
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby TheTopBloke » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:04 pm

If you're going to law school because you have a genuine interest in the law, regardless of whether you intend to pass the bar and actually practice law, then go.

If you're going to law school simply to earn money, there are plenty of jobs in the food service industry that will accommodate that goal, and you don't have to incur the equivalent of your first mortgage in debt to obtain a steady paycheck.

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Kohinoor
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:09 pm

TTTGrad wrote:I graduated college in 1991. I only had a liberal arts degree from a Tier 2 school and my starting salary was $35K at an entry level position. Don't tell me starting salaries are $20K/yr. twenty years later when the cost of education has quadrupled. What that should tell you is that the value of education is shite compared to the earnings it brings you nowadays. A trade school diploma reaps more rewards. Shit my landscapper clears $200K a year. What makes you think a law degree will make it any better? Law compensation has always been bi-modal. $160K on one end, $30K-50K on the other end. The $160K jobs are shrinking and midlaw won't take recent law grads which means you will have to compete heavily to work as an Obama soldier or shitlaw. Ok, go ahead and take on 6 figure debt if you want to make $30K a year. At least that is $10K more than what you claim you make now.

I graduated college in 2007. I was making 35k and that was more than any of my friends that didn't make banking gigs. I have friends with BAs who are chronically un or underemployed and a friend with a masters working at a corner store. Starting salaries are wayyyyyyyyy below 35-40k.

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mallard
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby mallard » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:12 pm

TheTopBloke wrote:If you're going to law school because you have a genuine interest in the law, regardless of whether you intend to pass the bar and actually practice law, then go.


No.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby Mr. Matlock » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:13 pm

I will say that the one excuse I HATE is the "woe is me, I only have some lame liberal arts degree and all I'm qualified for is teaching HS English."

I have one of those lame degrees and made well over 6 figures for YEARS! Did I start at the top, no. Many entry level jobs require a college degree. Yes, the pay sucks donkey dick, but you have to start somewhere.

If that is your only excuse for getting a law degree, you are going to fall hard in life.

09042014
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:14 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Some people still think they have a somewhat decent shot at making the happy end of the bimodal distribution.


You certainly do have a more than decent shot.

Also I hate you.


Aww, but Desert Fox, I don't hate you. And often find your contributions on threads fun to read. :(


Marry me?

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TheTopBloke
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby TheTopBloke » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:15 pm

mallard wrote:
TheTopBloke wrote:If you're going to law school because you have a genuine interest in the law, regardless of whether you intend to pass the bar and actually practice law, then go.


No.


Then what are you doing here?

ze2151
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby ze2151 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:16 pm

it's no use. the '91 grad will not get it. paging bitter old man: go away.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby Mr. Matlock » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:17 pm

TheTopBloke wrote:
mallard wrote:
TheTopBloke wrote:If you're going to law school because you have a genuine interest in the law, regardless of whether you intend to pass the bar and actually practice law, then go.


No.


Then what are you doing here?

He's probably ready to pwn OCI in about 2 months at Harvard. What are you doing here?


EDIT: Never mind, I think I remember your thread contribution from the other night. :lol: Good luck with that.

miamiman
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby miamiman » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:20 pm

the OC argument is spurious in the context of unemployable liberal arts grads.

the debt/jobs prospects argument is legitimate.

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acrossthelake
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby acrossthelake » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:21 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Some people still think they have a somewhat decent shot at making the happy end of the bimodal distribution.


You certainly do have a more than decent shot.

Also I hate you.


Aww, but Desert Fox, I don't hate you. And often find your contributions on threads fun to read. :(


Marry me?


Now I'm confused!

TheTopBloke wrote:
mallard wrote:
TheTopBloke wrote:If you're going to law school because you have a genuine interest in the law, regardless of whether you intend to pass the bar and actually practice law, then go.


No.


Then what are you doing here?


I feel like paying a lot of money to study law if you don't intend to practice law seems like something only really rich people with a lot of time on their hands should be doing...

09042014
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:25 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:I will say that the one excuse I HATE is the "woe is me, I only have some lame liberal arts degree and all I'm qualified for is teaching HS English."

I have one of those lame degrees and made well over 6 figures for YEARS! Did I start at the top, no. Many entry level jobs require a college degree. Yes, the pay sucks donkey dick, but you have to start somewhere.

If that is your only excuse for getting a law degree, you are going to fall hard in life.


Matlock lays down the knowledge. My company hires entry level employees with any degree. Within 5 years, you can make decent money. A lot of people with BA's are lazy as shit, and way overvalue their worth.

However why the fuck are you going to a TTT if you could make so much money. WTF is wrong with you.

miamiman
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby miamiman » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:26 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:I will say that the one excuse I HATE is the "woe is me, I only have some lame liberal arts degree and all I'm qualified for is teaching HS English."

I have one of those lame degrees and made well over 6 figures for YEARS! Did I start at the top, no. Many entry level jobs require a college degree. Yes, the pay sucks donkey dick, but you have to start somewhere.

If that is your only excuse for getting a law degree, you are going to fall hard in life.


Matlock lays down the knowledge. My company hires entry level employees with any degree. Within 5 years, you can make decent money. A lot of people with BA's are lazy as shit, and way overvalue their worth.

However why the fuck are you going to a TTT if you could make so much money. WTF is wrong with you.

tcq

09042014
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:27 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
Marry me?


Now I'm confused!


Love is overrated in a marriage.

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TheTopBloke
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby TheTopBloke » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:29 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:
TheTopBloke wrote:
mallard wrote:
TheTopBloke wrote:If you're going to law school because you have a genuine interest in the law, regardless of whether you intend to pass the bar and actually practice law, then go.


No.


Then what are you doing here?

He's probably ready to pwn OCI in about 2 months at Harvard. What are you doing here?


EDIT: Never mind, I think I remember your thread contribution from the other night. :lol: Good luck with that.


Thank you.

OCI? What is that?

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby Mr. Matlock » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:30 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:I will say that the one excuse I HATE is the "woe is me, I only have some lame liberal arts degree and all I'm qualified for is teaching HS English."

I have one of those lame degrees and made well over 6 figures for YEARS! Did I start at the top, no. Many entry level jobs require a college degree. Yes, the pay sucks donkey dick, but you have to start somewhere.

If that is your only excuse for getting a law degree, you are going to fall hard in life.


Matlock lays down the knowledge. My company hires entry level employees with any degree. Within 5 years, you can make decent money. A lot of people with BA's are lazy as shit, and way overvalue their worth.

However why the fuck are you going to a TTT if you could make so much money. WTF is wrong with you.

I'm insane and following up on dream from..... a few years ago.

At least I'm going for free. :|




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