USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read Forum

[094320]

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[TheTopBloke]

If you're going to law school because you have a genuine interest in the law, regardless of whether you intend to pass the bar and actually practice law, then go.

No.

Then what are you doing here?

I feel like paying a lot of money to study law if you don't intend to practice law seems like something only really rich people with a lot of time on their hands should be doing...[/quote]

There are plenty of executives that hold JD's that do not practice law. So you don't have to actually pass the bar to utilize a JD. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in Cali for example, a JD may practice on behalf of his/her company without being a member of the bar. Being a member of the bar allows you to open shop and practice the law on behalf of paying clients. If you're in house and salaried, and the board allows you to rep, then it's in effect a pro per situation.

[094320]

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[Miracle]

I think people don't realize that the average college graduate makes millions of dollars over a life time. Let's you make $100,000 a year for 40 years, so that's 4 million dollars after taxes lets say 2.5 million. So, is $200,000 of debt over a lifetime really that much? I know it's a pain to pay off, but it's not like your going to be living in a box because of law school. Also, I know you guys are saying what about the lawyers that make 60 K a year. Well I am talking about the avg. lawyer. I got 100,000 from the Dept. of Labor., which actually gives median, not average.

You forgot to add another $160K (8% per annum) in compounded interest on the $200K student loan (assuming you pay it back in 10 years) or $320K in interest on top of the $200K principal if you pay it back in 20 years. Yeah, $520K is a drop in the bucket.

How about-you get out of law school, work your but off for the first couple of years save up every penny and pay off you debt, therefore you won't be paying back your debt over a 20 year period stacking up 320K in interest on top of your 200K.

If your making 100K you should not have a problem paying off 200K in student loans! You should be able to pay it off in a decent time-less than 10 years.

[TheTopBloke]

Just because one has a genuine interest in the law does not mean one does not have a genuine interest in being a capitalist pig. My point is, if you're interested in law school for the sole purpose of obtaining a job at a law firm (gaining employment), then there are far cheaper ways of earning a buck.

One could work for McDonald's and be more financially stable. That $150k in law school debt could be a $150k mortgage, or no debt at all. Technically, that's a stronger financial position. If you're going simply hoping for a job at the end of the line, it's the wrong reason to go.

[Miracle]

Just because one has a genuine interest in the law does not mean one does not have a genuine interest in being a capitalist pig. My point is, if you're interested in law school for the sole purpose of obtaining a job at a law firm (gaining employment), then there are far cheaper ways of earning a buck.

One could work for McDonald's and be more financially stable. That $150k in law school debt could be a $150k mortgage, or no debt at all. Technically, that's a stronger financial position. If you're going simply hoping for a job at the end of the line, it's the wrong reason to go.

You're financially more stable if you work for McDonals than if you obtain law degree?

[TheTopBloke]

Just because one has a genuine interest in the law does not mean one does not have a genuine interest in being a capitalist pig. My point is, if you're interested in law school for the sole purpose of obtaining a job at a law firm (gaining employment), then there are far cheaper ways of earning a buck.

One could work for McDonald's and be more financially stable. That $150k in law school debt could be a $150k mortgage, or no debt at all. Technically, that's a stronger financial position. If you're going simply hoping for a job at the end of the line, it's the wrong reason to go.

You're financially more stable if you work for McDonals than if you obtain law degree?

LOL! Apparently! I've never seen so much whinging! Allegedly intelligent people bitching about how they were duped by their law school and now they can't find a job, or they're paranoid about getting out and not having a job. It's pathetic! These are the same people that allegedly have the gumption to represent me in a court of law? Puhleeez!

[keg411]

I graduated college in 1991. I only had a liberal arts degree from a Tier 2 school and my starting salary was $35K at an entry level position. Don't tell me starting salaries are $20K/yr. twenty years later when the cost of education has quadrupled. What that should tell you is that the value of education is shite compared to the earnings it brings you nowadays. A trade school diploma reaps more rewards. Shit my landscapper clears $200K a year. What makes you think a law degree will make it any better? Law compensation has always been bi-modal. $160K on one end, $30K-50K on the other end. The $160K jobs are shrinking and midlaw won't take recent law grads which means you will have to compete heavily to work as an Obama soldier or shitlaw. Ok, go ahead and take on 6 figure debt if you want to make $30K a year. At least that is $10K more than what you claim you make now.

I graduated college in 2007. I was making 35k and that was more than any of my friends that didn't make banking gigs. I have friends with BAs who are chronically un or underemployed and a friend with a masters working at a corner store. Starting salaries are wayyyyyyyyy below 35-40k.

I graduated in '05 and made $15k to start at my first job.

[NewLawStudent]

OK, here we go again. Someone is insinuting that going to law school is suicide. Well, let me see. I graduated with a degree in computer engineering and one in English literature in Iran several years ago. I worked as both a computer engineer and an English teacher in Iran for years and because I was making more as an English teacher (Yes, the pay for ESL/EFL teachers could be wonderful there), I continued to teach and kissed my computer engineering gig goodbye, which was hard but I had to do it to be able to make a good living. I then opened my own language school and became rich (I was making like 10K a month (no taxes in Iran) and bought a five-bedroom house in an upscale neighborhood in Tehran for 100K).
Then, the socio-political situation, which was already bad, started to take a downturn after the current president of Iran was elected. So I decided to take my life and wife and get the hell out of there in 2005. I sold everything that I had to immigrate to the States, the land of oportunities (Yeah, right). I paid 200K to an immigration lawyer who ripped me off so badly you can't even imagine. But most people in my country consider me happy, since coming here is incredibly difficult. Having been out of touch with my rusty computer engineering skills, I got a job as an ESL and test prep teacher here, making around 50K a year, working over 12 hours a day, with 15 years of experience in my job. My coworkers, most of whom are even more experienced than me and have TESOL, make between 20K and 30K a year, and God knows how they can make ends meet with all these expenses in LA. So not go to law school, right? What the heck can I do then?
1. Go back to Iran and make a lot of money and be scared to death every single day because .... (you know the drill)? No way, man! Why don't you go? BTW, I've burned all the bridges behind my back.
2. Count my blessings, bite the bullet, and teach my ass off 70+ hours a week for 50K in a dead-end job with no room for improvement until I retire? Doesn't sound too good, does it? (Almost no language school in this country insures their teachers BTW.)
3. Go teach English in Korea? English is not my first language, remember? And that job doesn't pay well either.
4. Go to a trade school with a master's and two bachelor's? Become a pharmacist in CVS? Great!

How about going to the tier 2 law school to which I've been admitted at sticker price, going solo upon graduation, and doing immigration work for those miserable people who still think America is heaven, or working as an ambulance chaser for the immigrants who exclusively work with other immigrants? I am between the devil and the deep blue sea, but going to law school is still better than the alternatives.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Don't tell people not to go to law school, unless you have heard their side of the story and unless you have looked at their other crappy alternatives!

[NewLawStudent]

I know! I don't blame you guys. If I were you, I wouldn't read my long reply either.

[blsingindisguise]

I understand your perspective here, but do you realize that law school IS a "trade school", and that "pharmacist in CVS" is a safer and more lucrative path than being a solo ambulance chaser? I mean maybe there's a niche with the Iranian community and it isn't already oversaturated with Persian-speaking JDs. I have no idea. But you're speaking as someone who hasn't actually done the thing you say you're going to do yet, so the value of your advice is fairly limited.

[09042014]

I will say that the one excuse I HATE is the "woe is me, I only have some lame liberal arts degree and all I'm qualified for is teaching HS English."

I have one of those lame degrees and made well over 6 figures for YEARS! Did I start at the top, no. Many entry level jobs require a college degree. Yes, the pay sucks donkey dick, but you have to start somewhere.

If that is your only excuse for getting a law degree, you are going to fall hard in life.

Matlock lays down the knowledge. My company hires entry level employees with any degree. Within 5 years, you can make decent money. A lot of people with BA's are lazy as shit, and way overvalue their worth.

However why the fuck are you going to a TTT if you could make so much money. WTF is wrong with you.

I'm insane and following up on dream from..... a few years ago.

At least I'm going for free.

Bookmark this so you can LOL at my massive debt in 16 months.

[094320]

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[A'nold]

I understand your perspective here, but do you realize that law school IS a "trade school", and that "pharmacist in CVS" is a safer and more lucrative path than being a solo ambulance chaser

Hmmm.....really? So the plethora of multi-millionare and straight up associates at PI firms making 150k+ that I've met make less than what, 75k? I know my math skills aren't great, but I don't know about this one.

ITT: Retard OP berates TLS'ers for wanting to persue a LAW DEGREE b/c we are all too stupid to realize that there are no law positions that make even a minimum amount of $$ but then tells us that we can easily start out making 40k a year..........................................


LULZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mec30]

TTTGrads math is slightly wrong. You would subtract the principle portion of the COL from the opportunity cost, but add the interest on financing that COL over 10 years. Presumably, you would need a place to live and eat regardless of whether you went to law school (if fact you might even live in a better place and eat higher quality food). Also you need to take into account the possibility of upward mobility. Many professions, in order to uncap your salary, will ask you to obtain further education (MBA, MA, vocational training, ect.) which also costs money. Your unlikly to need to go back to school if you have a JD.

But otherwise I agree that law school may not be the best investment decision.

[Mr. Matlock]

I will say that the one excuse I HATE is the "woe is me, I only have some lame liberal arts degree and all I'm qualified for is teaching HS English."

I have one of those lame degrees and made well over 6 figures for YEARS! Did I start at the top, no. Many entry level jobs require a college degree. Yes, the pay sucks donkey dick, but you have to start somewhere.

If that is your only excuse for getting a law degree, you are going to fall hard in life.

Matlock lays down the knowledge. My company hires entry level employees with any degree. Within 5 years, you can make decent money. A lot of people with BA's are lazy as shit, and way overvalue their worth.

However why the fuck are you going to a TTT if you could make so much money. WTF is wrong with you.

I'm insane and following up on dream from..... a few years ago.

At least I'm going for free.

Bookmark this so you can LOL at my massive debt in 16 months.

You'll have the last LOL in 4 years when we compare starting salaries.

[CG614]

OP is persistent! This must be his 10th "don't go to law school" thread. I wonder if he gets money for each soul he saves. Hahaha

[094320]

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[badwithpseudonyms]

There's so much fail in this thread, beginning with TTTGrad's math/assumption that everyone going to law school could be making $40k/yr doing something else, it makes me lulz. If you really believe there is a glut of $40k/yr entry level jobs out there... well shit, you're fucking delusional.

If you want to do some good in this world, round up a few of your disgruntled TTTGrad friends and each of you stand outside one of Cooley's campuses. Start with the most fucked, like Mother Theresa.

[DaveBear07]

[\quote]
Opportunity cost. lolwrongnumber.

For a history degree holder, the only opportunity I'm trading in is a life of coaching high school football and teaching geography at some bullshit South Carolina private school named after a prolific 1800s racist (Robert E. Lee Academy, James F. Byrnes Academy, Jefferson Davis Academy, Thomas Heyward Academy, Dillon Christian Academy - wait, Christians aren't racist!). These 1960s creations designed to give scared white families a chance to avoid sending their kids to school with "coloreds".

Being a slave to Sallie Mae (potentially) isn't much worse than being tied down to a life of small town worthlessness.

I tend to think many DON'T GO TO LAWSCHOOL posts exaggerate the alternative options for many students. As someone who has always wanted to be a lawyer, and who took the "pre-law track" (horseshit) at a top-25 public, I don't have other even $50k options waiting for me.[/quote]


Made me lol.

[TTTGrad]

OK, here we go again. Someone is insinuting that going to law school is suicide. Well, let me see. I graduated with a degree in computer engineering and one in English literature in Iran several years ago. I worked as both a computer engineer and an English teacher in Iran for years and because I was making more as an English teacher (Yes, the pay for ESL/EFL teachers could be wonderful there), I continued to teach and kissed my computer engineering gig goodbye, which was hard but I had to do it to be able to make a good living. I then opened my own language school and became rich (I was making like 10K a month (no taxes in Iran) and bought a five-bedroom house in an upscale neighborhood in Tehran for 100K).
Then, the socio-political situation, which was already bad, started to take a downturn after the current president of Iran was elected. So I decided to take my life and wife and get the hell out of there in 2005. I sold everything that I had to immigrate to the States, the land of oportunities (Yeah, right). I paid 200K to an immigration lawyer who ripped me off so badly you can't even imagine. But most people in my country consider me happy, since coming here is incredibly difficult. Having been out of touch with my rusty computer engineering skills, I got a job as an ESL and test prep teacher here, making around 50K a year, working over 12 hours a day, with 15 years of experience in my job. My coworkers, most of whom are even more experienced than me and have TESOL, make between 20K and 30K a year, and God knows how they can make ends meet with all these expenses in LA. So not go to law school, right? What the heck can I do then?
1. Go back to Iran and make a lot of money and be scared to death every single day because .... (you know the drill)? No way, man! Why don't you go? BTW, I've burned all the bridges behind my back.
2. Count my blessings, bite the bullet, and teach my ass off 70+ hours a week for 50K in a dead-end job with no room for improvement until I retire? Doesn't sound too good, does it? (Almost no language school in this country insures their teachers BTW.)
3. Go teach English in Korea? English is not my first language, remember? And that job doesn't pay well either.
4. Go to a trade school with a master's and two bachelor's? Become a pharmacist in CVS? Great!

How about going to the tier 2 law school to which I've been admitted at sticker price, going solo upon graduation, and doing immigration work for those miserable people who still think America is heaven, or working as an ambulance chaser for the immigrants who exclusively work with other immigrants? I am between the devil and the deep blue sea, but going to law school is still better than the alternatives.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Don't tell people not to go to law school, unless you have heard their side of the story and unless you have looked at their other crappy alternatives!

I have known about a dozen Iranian folks in my life. The common denominator with them was that they tend to exaggerate x 4. So I guess an immigration "notario" ripped you off for $50K, your home in Iran cost $25K, etc. You want to be an immigration lawyer (aka shitlawyer) because of your foreign background? Guess what iron sheik? Many foreigners have beat you to the punch. In Minnesota for example, there are hundreds of Somali born lawyers doing asylum cases for $500 a pop. In NY, there are thousands of Indian background attorneys doing sham marriage petitions for $1K a pop. In California, there are tens of thousands of Latino background attorneys doing immigration cases for next to nothing. Go ahead and drop six figures to go to law school, obtain a watered down degree and join the growing legion of shitlawyers who everyday are undercutting themselves more and more. I bet in 6 years, downtown Beirut will seem like shangri la to you compared to being a shitlawyer in America.

[Mr. Matlock]

I have known about a dozen Iranian folks in my life. The common denominator with them was that they tend to exaggerate x 4. So I guess an immigration "notario" ripped you off for $50K, your home in Iran cost $25K, etc. You want to be an immigration lawyer (aka shitlawyer) because of your foreign background? Guess what iron sheik? Many foreigners have beat you to the punch. In Minnesota for example, there are hundreds of Somali born lawyers doing asylum cases for $500 a pop. In NY, there are thousands of Indian background attorneys doing sham marriage petitions for $1K a pop. In California, there are tens of thousands of Latino background attorneys doing immigration cases for next to nothing. Go ahead and drop six figures to go to law school, obtain a watered down degree and join the growing legion of shitlawyers who everyday are undercutting themselves more and more. I bet in 6 years, downtown Beirut will seem like shangri la to you compared to being a shitlawyer in America.

Man, you sound like a real fucking peach.

People, law school isn't for everyone and there are lots of reason why lots of people shouldn't be attending. Whatever you do decide, in 20 years, please don't become a self absorbed, first class ass like this TTTGrad peach.

Stay classy kids.

[tttlllsss]

Lastly, you may think you are a loser for being in a dead end job but it beats seeing your parents on youtube complaining about how their pride and joy can't find a job 2 years out of law school and lives at home at the age of 30 something. Would you want this to be your dad 5 years from now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COFtWCbz ... re=related

Context:
- Graduated from NYU '99 w/ a BA in Psychology.
- Took a 5-yr break from school, had a child
- Enrolled in Miami Law and got JD in '07
- Did odd legal-related jobs around Miami for a while before moving back to MA, presumably w/ her parents

[NewLawStudent]

Wow, TTTGrad! You sound like such a miserable piece of crap. You seriously need help.

[3ThrowAway99]

This thread reminds me of a T3 grad (the school recently became T2) who when I mentioned I was starting law school went into a rant that lasted about 10 minutes on how horrible law school is and how miserable the practice of law is. The guy had a law job, but he was making about the same as before he went to law school and hates legal work. Also, he had to move away from where he wanted to live for the job. I understand that in his case (and in fact in many cases) law school and law practice ends up being a big disappointment, but that doesn't mean that the frustration that individual has experienced applies to everyone else. I politely listened to him and acknowledged that for him law school has not been a good payoff (at least up the point I last spoke with him). Obviously there is a lot of risk in going to law school ITE, but to use that risk or even negative personal experiences to discourage all others who are planning to study law is too broad of an application. Besides, is the fact that it is a horrible time to go into law really new info?