USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
TTTGrad
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 8:43 pm

USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby TTTGrad » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:11 pm

I know by now many of you kids are committed to taking the plunge and enrolling in law school. There is a false mystique about the legal "profession" that has been propagated by the media and Hollywood which I am sure has influenced many parents in encouraging their offspring to go to law school in order to learn the "skills" that will make them rich and enable them to set the world on fire. Fine, take the dive, waste three years of your life, opportunity costs, and in most cases, become a life-long indentured servant to Sallie Mae.

Today I came across a USNWR article that discusses the increasing difficulty of law grads in securing legal employment. Now personally I don't put any stock in what USNWR has to say (unlike many of you lemmings), so I figure I would be courteous and share with you the article which I believe highlights the mistake of enrolling in law school today. Enjoy!

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... l?PageNr=1

User avatar
Interminable_Waiting
Posts: 342
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:17 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby Interminable_Waiting » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:19 pm

So I've gathered from the article that c/o 2012 will be better than c/o 2010/11. C/o 2013 should be golden then. NY to 190. Thanks for the helpful post TTT.

sumus romani
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:04 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby sumus romani » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:19 pm

TTTGrad wrote:I know by now many of you kids are committed to taking the plunge and enrolling in law school. There is a false mystique about the legal "profession" that has been propagated by the media and Hollywood which I am sure has influenced many parents in encouraging their offspring to go to law school in order to learn the "skills" that will make them rich and enable them to set the world on fire. Fine, take the dive, waste three years of your life, opportunity costs, and in most cases, become a life-long indentured servant to Sallie Mae.

Today I came across a USNWR article that discusses the increasing difficulty of law grads in securing legal employment. Now personally I don't put any stock in what USNWR has to say (unlike many of you lemmings), so I figure I would be courteous and share with you the article which I believe highlights the mistake of enrolling in law school today. Enjoy!

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... l?PageNr=1



It is good to see that popular press is finally picking up on the law school scam.

oneforship
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:17 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby oneforship » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:23 pm

Wait...so you're telling me that law students who have already graduated, but don't yet have jobs, are screwed?

User avatar
Grizz
Posts: 10583
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:31 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby Grizz » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:27 pm

--ImageRemoved--

User avatar
gdane
Posts: 12423
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:41 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby gdane » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:30 pm

Now if only USNWR would come out and say that the numbers they report in their rankings, particularly employment and earnings, are fabricated lies.

User avatar
Grizz
Posts: 10583
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:31 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby Grizz » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:32 pm

gdane5 wrote:Now if only USNWR would come out and say that the numbers they report, particularly employment and earnings, are fabricated lies.


USNWR just wants to make money. I don't blame them as much as the individual schools.

sumus romani
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:04 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby sumus romani » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:33 pm

gdane5 wrote:Now if only USNWR would come out and say that the numbers they report, particularly employment and earnings, are fabricated lies.



That will never happen unfortunately. But if enough reputable news agencies keep calling bullshit on USNWR, then we might see some change.

User avatar
Ty Webb
Posts: 517
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby Ty Webb » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:34 pm

TTTGrad wrote:I know by now many of you kids are committed to taking the plunge and enrolling in law school. There is a false mystique about the legal "profession" that has been propagated by the media and Hollywood which I am sure has influenced many parents in encouraging their offspring to go to law school in order to learn the "skills" that will make them rich and enable them to set the world on fire. Fine, take the dive, waste three years of your life, opportunity costs, and in most cases, become a life-long indentured servant to Sallie Mae.

Today I came across a USNWR article that discusses the increasing difficulty of law grads in securing legal employment. Now personally I don't put any stock in what USNWR has to say (unlike many of you lemmings), so I figure I would be courteous and share with you the article which I believe highlights the mistake of enrolling in law school today. Enjoy!

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... l?PageNr=1


Opportunity cost. lolwrongnumber.

For a history degree holder, the only opportunity I'm trading in is a life of coaching high school football and teaching geography at some bullshit South Carolina private school named after a prolific 1800s racist (Robert E. Lee Academy, James F. Byrnes Academy, Jefferson Davis Academy, Thomas Heyward Academy, Dillon Christian Academy - wait, Christians aren't racist!). These 1960s creations designed to give scared white families a chance to avoid sending their kids to school with "coloreds".

Being a slave to Sallie Mae (potentially) isn't much worse than being tied down to a life of small town worthlessness.

I tend to think many DON'T GO TO LAWSCHOOL posts exaggerate the alternative options for many students. As someone who has always wanted to be a lawyer, and who took the "pre-law track" (horseshit) at a top-25 public, I don't have other even $50k options waiting for me.

sumus romani
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:04 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby sumus romani » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:38 pm

This isn't a "don't go to law school" thread: at least I didn't read it that way. Rather, it encourages applicants and would-be applicants to treat potential debt as an important factor in one's determination about whether one should even go to law school. Maybe I just read it differently.

User avatar
Ty Webb
Posts: 517
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby Ty Webb » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:41 pm

sumus romani wrote:This isn't a "don't go to law school" thread: at least I didn't read it that way. Rather, it encourages applicants and would-be applicants to treat potential debt as an important factor in one's determination about whether one should even go to law school. Maybe I just read it differently.


OP is a one-trick pony. Was speaking to the general tone of his agenda.

Though his messages have lots of truth, they ignore many realities of the prospective law school market (mostly the continued overvaluation of so-called "opportunity cost").

imacpa
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:49 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby imacpa » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:42 pm

sumus romani wrote:
gdane5 wrote:Now if only USNWR would come out and say that the numbers they report, particularly employment and earnings, are fabricated lies.



That will never happen unfortunately. But if enough reputable news agencies keep calling bullshit on USNWR, then we might see some change.


Think again.....it appears that USNWR is already addressing that issue (see link below)

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/college-ran ... kings.html

User avatar
Ty Webb
Posts: 517
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby Ty Webb » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:44 pm

sumus romani wrote:This isn't a "don't go to law school" thread: at least I didn't read it that way. Rather, it encourages applicants and would-be applicants to treat potential debt as an important factor in one's determination about whether one should even go to law school. Maybe I just read it differently.


And also:

Fine, take the dive, waste three years of your life, opportunity costs, and in most cases, become a life-long indentured servant to Sallie Mae.


unlike many of you lemmings


the article which I believe highlights the mistake of enrolling in law school today.


Uhh...

This isn't a "don't go to law school" thread: at least I didn't read it that way.


Image

sumus romani
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:04 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby sumus romani » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:45 pm

Ty Webb wrote:
sumus romani wrote:This isn't a "don't go to law school" thread: at least I didn't read it that way. Rather, it encourages applicants and would-be applicants to treat potential debt as an important factor in one's determination about whether one should even go to law school. Maybe I just read it differently.


OP is a one-trick pony. Was speaking to the general tone of his agenda.

Though his messages have lots of truth, they ignore many realities of the prospective law school market (mostly the continued overvaluation of so-called "opportunity cost").



I'm fine with that. I haven't seen the OP's history.

User avatar
animalcrkrs
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:24 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby animalcrkrs » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:46 pm

From the comment section...c/o 2011...

-Top third, top 20 school, no offers, no responses from 184 resumes sent out (thus far).
(Law Student of MN)

ouch.

sumus romani
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:04 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby sumus romani » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:49 pm

Ty Webb wrote:
sumus romani wrote:This isn't a "don't go to law school" thread: at least I didn't read it that way. Rather, it encourages applicants and would-be applicants to treat potential debt as an important factor in one's determination about whether one should even go to law school. Maybe I just read it differently.


And also:

Fine, take the dive, waste three years of your life, opportunity costs, and in most cases, become a life-long indentured servant to Sallie Mae.


unlike many of you lemmings


the article which I believe highlights the mistake of enrolling in law school today.


Uhh...

This isn't a "don't go to law school" thread: at least I didn't read it that way.


Image



Things aren't looking to good for me here :oops: . Still though, I would stress that if you just look at the title and the original post contents, it does not say nor imply that no one should go to law school. Rather, that a cost/benefit analysis yields poor results for the majority of law students.

miamiman
Posts: 1486
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:55 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby miamiman » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:52 pm

The vast majority of law grads will be ite pwned. I don't think things will be markedly better for co 2013. Its a big fucking gamble but I'm throwing my hat in the ring.

That's all you can do.

sumus romani
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:04 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby sumus romani » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:52 pm

imacpa wrote:
sumus romani wrote:
gdane5 wrote:Now if only USNWR would come out and say that the numbers they report, particularly employment and earnings, are fabricated lies.



That will never happen unfortunately. But if enough reputable news agencies keep calling bullshit on USNWR, then we might see some change.


Think again.....it appears that USNWR is already addressing that issue (see link below)

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/college-ran ... kings.html



I have seen that before, but I still feel that that measure does not go nearly far enough to solve the problem. Basically, the problem is unverified self-reporting. It is not at base that the automatic number US News assigns for those who don't report is too high. We're talking about a band aid on a gunshot wound here.

User avatar
Ty Webb
Posts: 517
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby Ty Webb » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:56 pm

miamiman wrote:The vast majority of law grads will be ite pwned. I don't think things will be markedly better for co 2013. Its a big fucking gamble but I'm throwing my hat in the ring.

That's all you can do.


QFT.

I think these posts do serve a purpose, though. The education in how shit-tastic the legal market is right now is the best motivator anyone could ask for.

User avatar
mallard
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:45 am

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby mallard » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:57 pm

Ty Webb wrote:
miamiman wrote:The vast majority of law grads will be ite pwned. I don't think things will be markedly better for co 2013. Its a big fucking gamble but I'm throwing my hat in the ring.

That's all you can do.


QFT.

I think these posts do serve a purpose, though. The education in how shit-tastic the legal market is right now is the best motivator anyone could ask for.


What use is motivation? You getting that spot at a school or that transfer spot or that job means some other applicant won't be able to get it. No net gain.

User avatar
yinz
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 8:36 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby yinz » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:17 pm

mallard wrote:What use is motivation? You getting that spot at a school or that transfer spot or that job means some other applicant won't be able to get it. No net gain.


Bolded is the use. Individual actors in the market rarely think of the net gains or the macro-implications, only their selfish bottom line.

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby keg411 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:19 pm

I wish the scambloggers would post more on xoxo. The results of those attempts have been a lot funnier.

User avatar
Ty Webb
Posts: 517
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby Ty Webb » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:27 pm

yinz wrote:
mallard wrote:What use is motivation? You getting that spot at a school or that transfer spot or that job means some other applicant won't be able to get it. No net gain.


Bolded is the use. Individual actors in the market rarely think of the net gains or the macro-implications, only their selfish bottom line.



This.

I meant that constant news of impending doom has heightened my awareness of the need to finish top 10-15%.

TTTGrad
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby TTTGrad » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:50 pm

Ty Webb wrote:
TTTGrad wrote:I know by now many of you kids are committed to taking the plunge and enrolling in law school. There is a false mystique about the legal "profession" that has been propagated by the media and Hollywood which I am sure has influenced many parents in encouraging their offspring to go to law school in order to learn the "skills" that will make them rich and enable them to set the world on fire. Fine, take the dive, waste three years of your life, opportunity costs, and in most cases, become a life-long indentured servant to Sallie Mae.

Today I came across a USNWR article that discusses the increasing difficulty of law grads in securing legal employment. Now personally I don't put any stock in what USNWR has to say (unlike many of you lemmings), so I figure I would be courteous and share with you the article which I believe highlights the mistake of enrolling in law school today. Enjoy!

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... l?PageNr=1


Opportunity cost. lolwrongnumber.

For a history degree holder, the only opportunity I'm trading in is a life of coaching high school football and teaching geography at some bullshit South Carolina private school named after a prolific 1800s racist (Robert E. Lee Academy, James F. Byrnes Academy, Jefferson Davis Academy, Thomas Heyward Academy, Dillon Christian Academy - wait, Christians aren't racist!). These 1960s creations designed to give scared white families a chance to avoid sending their kids to school with "coloreds".

Being a slave to Sallie Mae (potentially) isn't much worse than being tied down to a life of small town worthlessness.

I tend to think many DON'T GO TO LAWSCHOOL posts exaggerate the alternative options for many students. As someone who has always wanted to be a lawyer, and who took the "pre-law track" (horseshit) at a top-25 public, I don't have other even $50k options waiting for me.



Many kids still don't get the concept of opportunity costs lost as a result of attending law school.

If a college grad is making $40K a year that is $120K lost in wages over 3 years. Add the costs of obtaining a law degree in the NY metro area under this scenario:

Tuition: $48K(Fordham, BLS or Seton Hall) + $25K (COL in NYC)=$73K x 3 years=$219K

If you are paying sticker, your total losses will be around $219K + $10K (bar exam loan) +$120K (lost wages)=$349K
Assuming you even get a half scholarship ($24K a year), you are still wasting $49K a year x 3 =$147K


Add the lost of employment wages to your law school cost and you have lost a combined $267K oh and let's not forget about another $10K for the bar exam loan and your loss is $277K.

Not to mention, the three years of law school are arguably a waste of time as you don't learn any practical skills. Thinking like a lawyer, knowing how to do searches on lexis/westlaw and writing briefs for moot court are not enough skills to hit the ground running and expect a client to pay you.

I have never said don't go to law school. If your dream has been to become a lawyer (because you can argue your way out of a paperbag) or your parents have convinced you that you will be the next Ronald Dworkin, be my guest but when things don't work out for you, don't cry to Congress for a bailout. You have been exposed to the risks and by enrolling in law school and most of you have thumbed your noses at the truth and have decided to act recklessly.

Lastly, you may think you are a loser for being in a dead end job but it beats seeing your parents on youtube complaining about how their pride and joy can't find a job 2 years out of law school and lives at home at the age of 30 something. Would you want this to be your dad 5 years from now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COFtWCbz ... re=related
Last edited by TTTGrad on Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

acrossthelake
Posts: 4431
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:27 pm

Re: USNWR Article Prospective Law Students Should Read

Postby acrossthelake » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:54 pm

Dunno. I think grads of the T6 will probably be alright in 2013. I'm cool with the risks.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: kakistocracy and 5 guests