Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

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seasurf
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby seasurf » Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:01 pm

yinz wrote:
seasurf wrote:Also, I have closed more deals and worked harder than majority of people at my age. Plus, my success in undergrad suggests that I will do fine in law school. I am not asking people to tell people I am not smart enouph to go to law school (which I know is not true) but where I could get admitted in the NYC area (don't wanna leave my new apartment haha)


--ImageRemoved--

But seriously, answer these questions:

(a) Why not get a graduate degree for free? If you aren't satisfied with your current job (or future prospects) what makes you think securities law is going to invigorate and challenge you? Have you spoken with practicing lawyers about it?

(b) If you are serious about your desire to attend law school, then why don't you have the motivation to study for the test on which you are primarily judged/admitted? I'd make up your mind soon as to whether or not you really want this and either plan on attending Bschool or studying every weeknight and most weekends (for two-three solid months, during the summer time, when all your buddies want to grab drinks and skirts) for the LSAT.


To answer to your questions

1)- If I get an MBA, my contract stipulates that I will need to work for them for a certain number of years within a similar capacity but as an associate (perhaps, I would have certain mobility within the company). I interact with securities lawyers quite often and can picture myself working on the legal side of the business more so than on the client/number crunching side. Even if I do not go into securities law, I believe that a legal education would challenge me intellectually and I would perhaps discover other areas in law where I could practice.

2)-You are right that I did not put that much effort into studying, but that was mostly because I was working too much and did not have the time. Also, I called called LSAC and I cannot take the exam until next February (which would make me less competitive for the following year). ALso, I wanted to start law school as soon as possible, and that is why I considered applying to Brooklyn or Cordozo with my current score (158) and GPA (3.91 from top 10 UG).

(On the side note, I know analysts have a reputation for chasing skirts and bottle service, but my team is not one of those groups that blows lines of coke and chases after girls on rooftop bars- pretty much the opposite, most of us are exhausted and go home)

Considering what people say on this forum, It appears the consensus is that Brooklyn or Cordozo are not viable options. damn, never though attending (or even considering) these schools would be career suicide

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TheTopBloke
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby TheTopBloke » Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:06 pm

dukelawguy144 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:OP, I don't doubt your success or your intellect. But you are making great money in a great job, and there are likely many exit options for you besides law school. You need to really think about whether or not you want to be a lawyer. If you are just looking to bail on your current job, that's a poor reason. You should investigate your industry's job market and see if there is a company or firm where you could increase your QOL.

If, on the other hand, you really want to be a lawyer, then nealric is absolutely credited. Do not go to Brooklyn or Cardozo. You better get your ass focused on the LSAT, because Columbia, NYU, and maaaaybe Fordham would be the only schools worth going to in NYC. I think someone with your background from a top school like C or N would have a great shot at biglaw, but there is no way you should even consider Brooklyn, Dozo, NYLS, or any of the other NYC schools.


I do doubt his intellect if he can't get above a 158. I mean cmon...

But I do agree with you that Cardozo or Brooklyn are horrible options. No one in the right mind would leave a 120k plus Analyst job to make 80k a year at a low tier law firm that recruits from these schools .

If op is real, he is going to make a horrendous mistake if he considers law school with his low score. But I still stand by my contention that he is full of shit.


But he's not in his 'right mind', he's miserable.

dukelawguy144
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby dukelawguy144 » Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:32 pm

TheTopBloke wrote:
dukelawguy144 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:OP, I don't doubt your success or your intellect. But you are making great money in a great job, and there are likely many exit options for you besides law school. You need to really think about whether or not you want to be a lawyer. If you are just looking to bail on your current job, that's a poor reason. You should investigate your industry's job market and see if there is a company or firm where you could increase your QOL.

If, on the other hand, you really want to be a lawyer, then nealric is absolutely credited. Do not go to Brooklyn or Cardozo. You better get your ass focused on the LSAT, because Columbia, NYU, and maaaaybe Fordham would be the only schools worth going to in NYC. I think someone with your background from a top school like C or N would have a great shot at biglaw, but there is no way you should even consider Brooklyn, Dozo, NYLS, or any of the other NYC schools.


I do doubt his intellect if he can't get above a 158. I mean cmon...

But I do agree with you that Cardozo or Brooklyn are horrible options. No one in the right mind would leave a 120k plus Analyst job to make 80k a year at a low tier law firm that recruits from these schools .

If op is real, he is going to make a horrendous mistake if he considers law school with his low score. But I still stand by my contention that he is full of shit.


But he's not in his 'right mind', he's miserable.


whats your point?

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gwuorbust
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby gwuorbust » Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:58 pm

dukelawguy144 wrote:whats your point?


although he may be making bank if he can't do anything with it and he hates the job then all that $$$ is irrelevant.


also, if you petition a law school to let you take the LSAT again all they have to do is contact LSAC telling them they want to see how you preform on another LSAT. then you can take the LSAT before June 2011 (though you make want to take that long to study while working).

keg411
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby keg411 » Sun Jun 27, 2010 11:06 pm

seasurf wrote:1)- If I get an MBA, my contract stipulates that I will need to work for them for a certain number of years within a similar capacity but as an associate (perhaps, I would have certain mobility within the company). I interact with securities lawyers quite often and can picture myself working on the legal side of the business more so than on the client/number crunching side. Even if I do not go into securities law, I believe that a legal education would challenge me intellectually and I would perhaps discover other areas in law where I could practice.

2)-You are right that I did not put that much effort into studying, but that was mostly because I was working too much and did not have the time. Also, I called called LSAC and I cannot take the exam until next February (which would make me less competitive for the following year). ALso, I wanted to start law school as soon as possible, and that is why I considered applying to Brooklyn or Cordozo with my current score (158) and GPA (3.91 from top 10 UG).

(On the side note, I know analysts have a reputation for chasing skirts and bottle service, but my team is not one of those groups that blows lines of coke and chases after girls on rooftop bars- pretty much the opposite, most of us are exhausted and go home)

Considering what people say on this forum, It appears the consensus is that Brooklyn or Cordozo are not viable options. damn, never though attending (or even considering) these schools would be career suicide


Northwestern has a 2-yr. program where they will take the GMAT instead of the LSAT (assuming you can get a high score on the GMAT). Try that. With a 3.91 GPA from undergrad, and your WE, it is probably a good fit.

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PLATONiC
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby PLATONiC » Sun Jun 27, 2010 11:15 pm

Go get an MBA. Please do not go to law school unless you score 165+. I set this benchmark on your case because we have to weigh in the opportunity costs that you face. Honestly, once you get an MBA, you'll be bumped up to an associate position, which will in turn point you towards a position that requires less horrid hours. Why would you trade that up for a legal education?

dukelawguy144
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby dukelawguy144 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:21 pm

Just so you know northwesterns jd MBA program is 3 Years not 2.

seasurf
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby seasurf » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:22 pm

PLATONiC wrote:Go get an MBA. Please do not go to law school unless you score 165+. I set this benchmark on your case because we have to weigh in the opportunity costs that you face. Honestly, once you get an MBA, you'll be bumped up to an associate position, which will in turn point you towards a position that requires less horrid hours. Why would you trade that up for a legal education?


I am truly interested in business law. I took two law courses with the law school at my UG university (I petitioned to take it) and I loved it! I earned an A and an A- (these classes were curved to a b-). I am more fascinated by the legal side of the financial industry and like the intellectual challenging aspect of a legal education. I know the oppurtunity costs are high, especially given my decent compensation, but I am fairly sure that I will be able to do very well in law school (even if it is lower ranked) and have good career prospects.

I hear Cardozo is very very good at placing people at nyc top firms I am thinking of applying for the program that begins in Jan.

acrossthelake
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:25 pm

seasurf wrote:
I am truly interested in business law. I took two law courses with the law school at my UG university (I petitioned to take it) and I loved it! I earned an A and an A- (these classes were curved to a b-). I am more fascinated by the legal side of the financial industry and like the intellectual challenging aspect of a legal education. I know the oppurtunity costs are high, especially given my decent compensation, but I am fairly sure that I will be able to do very well in law school (even if it is lower ranked) and have good career prospects.

I hear Cardozo is very very good at placing people at nyc top firms I am thinking of applying for the program that begins in Jan.


If you insist on going, retakkeeeeee.

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romothesavior
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:25 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
seasurf wrote:
I am truly interested in business law. I took two law courses with the law school at my UG university (I petitioned to take it) and I loved it! I earned an A and an A- (these classes were curved to a b-). I am more fascinated by the legal side of the financial industry and like the intellectual challenging aspect of a legal education. I know the oppurtunity costs are high, especially given my decent compensation, but I am fairly sure that I will be able to do very well in law school (even if it is lower ranked) and have good career prospects.

I hear Cardozo is very very good at placing people at nyc top firms I am thinking of applying for the program that begins in Jan.


If you insist on going, retakkeeeeee.


This.

seasurf
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby seasurf » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:28 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
seasurf wrote:
I am truly interested in business law. I took two law courses with the law school at my UG university (I petitioned to take it) and I loved it! I earned an A and an A- (these classes were curved to a b-). I am more fascinated by the legal side of the financial industry and like the intellectual challenging aspect of a legal education. I know the oppurtunity costs are high, especially given my decent compensation, but I am fairly sure that I will be able to do very well in law school (even if it is lower ranked) and have good career prospects.

I hear Cardozo is very very good at placing people at nyc top firms I am thinking of applying for the program that begins in Jan.


If you insist on going, retakkeeeeee.


Ok I will consider retaking. But do you think I am wrong about career prospects from Cardozo if I graduate in the top quarter of my clsss?

dukelawguy144
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby dukelawguy144 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:33 pm

Dude, no one is going to support your decision to attend crap law schools like Cardozo, Brooklyn or New York Law School. If you made your mind, despite all reasonable people recommending otherwise, then go for it. Just dont complain on TLS when you are unemployed and spent all the money you saved for a sub-par legal education. Just take the exam again and stop whining. Your GPA and experience is too much to waste on a shitty education

Also, do you know how many people would love to have your current job? I think you are not just not grateful that you could actually survive when many people cannot even pay off UG loans.

In conclusion, either stop complaining and retake, or just screw law school because you have no way to justify blowing through 160k on something that is not even a top 30

dukelawguy144
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby dukelawguy144 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:35 pm

seasurf wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
seasurf wrote:
I am truly interested in business law. I took two law courses with the law school at my UG university (I petitioned to take it) and I loved it! I earned an A and an A- (these classes were curved to a b-). I am more fascinated by the legal side of the financial industry and like the intellectual challenging aspect of a legal education. I know the oppurtunity costs are high, especially given my decent compensation, but I am fairly sure that I will be able to do very well in law school (even if it is lower ranked) and have good career prospects.

I hear Cardozo is very very good at placing people at nyc top firms I am thinking of applying for the program that begins in Jan.


If you insist on going, retakkeeeeee.


Ok I will consider retaking. But do you think I am wrong about career prospects from Cardozo if I graduate in the top quarter of my clsss?



you are making an assumption that you will graduate top of your class. most people go in with this assumption but there is a 75% that it will not happen

acrossthelake
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:38 pm

seasurf wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
seasurf wrote:
I am truly interested in business law. I took two law courses with the law school at my UG university (I petitioned to take it) and I loved it! I earned an A and an A- (these classes were curved to a b-). I am more fascinated by the legal side of the financial industry and like the intellectual challenging aspect of a legal education. I know the oppurtunity costs are high, especially given my decent compensation, but I am fairly sure that I will be able to do very well in law school (even if it is lower ranked) and have good career prospects.

I hear Cardozo is very very good at placing people at nyc top firms I am thinking of applying for the program that begins in Jan.


If you insist on going, retakkeeeeee.


Ok I will consider retaking. But do you think I am wrong about career prospects from Cardozo if I graduate in the top quarter of my clsss?


I'm an 0L, so it's not like I've personally experienced graduating top 25% at Cardozo, but from what I've read about the economy, through word of mouth, and from my sister who knows a Cardozo grad, trading your current job in for whatever Cardozo could offer you ITE seems like a completely ridiculous prospect even with an aching and dying love for law. Not retaking is unwise. A better LSAT score and getting into a better school will help you achieve your goal a lot more than doing well at Cardozo will.

09042014
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:40 pm

thexfactor wrote:take hte GMATS and try to apply to NW. In some circumstances they take a GMAT score as a replacement for the LSAT.


He should have done this before he took the LSAT. After he took the LSAT, it's too late, NU will have to report his LSAT. Maybe if he waits out of the 5 year window where it counts.

Maybe he can apply ED to NU, just to see what happens. His GPA is above the 75%, so there is a tiny shot they'd take him.

ixkofm
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby ixkofm » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:22 pm

If you want real advice you are looking in the wrong place, and when I say real advice I mean the kind where the person giving it listens to what you are saying and adjusts what they think based on the specific circumstances you have listed. No one here is going to advise you to leave what they consider a good job to go to a school like Brooklyn or Cardozo because no one here can imagine saying "bye bye" to $100,000+ in salary for a guarantee that there are no guarantees and that you could potentially find yourself in the top 20% at these schools and not find work or be limited to making $80,000 for at least your first 7 years out of law school. I would agree with that, but I'm not you and you seem set on finding a way to get out of the financial sector, so I'll tell you what you want to here, and I believe it is all true:

If you go to Cardozo and Brooklyn and finish in the top 10% you have a chance at big law. What kind of chance? Not a great one, but a reasonable chance. Let me say this actually: In the next 5 years I am sure that every year at least 10 Brooklyn grads and at least 10 Cardozo grads will get big law jobs. You have a great gpa and you can survive in a tough industry in a tough city and do what most would consider as well for yourself. If you think that translates to top 10% at either of these schools, plus a personality that will stand out among competition who have your grades, but went to better schools than go for it. You can analyze the risks and rewards yourself.

To answer your actual question I am not sure about your chances at these schools. You're a reverse splitter, so it’s hard to say. My gut is you would get in at both and possibly get some money at Brooklyn. Do I think this is a good route to take? No because with a sub 3.0 gpa and a 167 I got a full ride to Brooklyn and wait listed at dozo. I've wanted to be a lawyer my entire life and have 4+ years experience working at law firms, networking with lawyers and I would not have paid sticker to go to either school, and that’s without having a career and salary to give up. I would have gone to George Mason at sticker and prayed that I dont end up regretting it, like so many people do. Your situation is tough, but no one here knows how you feel or how you view your current situation even though it sounds great to all of us.

Oh, also even if you retake and get a 165+ all that will do is get you more money at dozo and bk, it might get u into Fordham with money but schools like nyu and Columbia will average your lsat even if they say they don’t because they get thousands of applicants who got that 170+ on the first time. Good luck!

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nealric
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby nealric » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:10 pm

I hear Cardozo is very very good at placing people at nyc top firms I am thinking of applying for the program that begins in Jan.


Unfortunately, you hear wrong (at least from a probabilistic standpoint). A January start would also cause problems with the traditionally rigid associate hiring schedule. In any event, going to Cardozo would give you something like a 10% shot of doing what you really want to do. Is that really worth giving up your job and paying almost $150k in tuition for?


It's also worth considering that undergrad law classes usually bear little resemblance to real law school courses. The undergrad law class I took was a joke in comparison to law school.

seasurf
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby seasurf » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:17 pm

nealric wrote:
I hear Cardozo is very very good at placing people at nyc top firms I am thinking of applying for the program that begins in Jan.


Unfortunately, you hear wrong (at least from a probabilistic standpoint). A January start would also cause problems with the traditionally rigid associate hiring schedule. In any event, going to Cardozo would give you something like a 10% shot of doing what you really want to do. Is that really worth giving up your job and paying almost $150k in tuition for?


It's also worth considering that undergrad law classes usually bear little resemblance to real law school courses. The undergrad law class I took was a joke in comparison to law school.



Thanks for your opinion.

Two things

1)- The Cardozo Program that begins in Jan is 2 1/2 years. Therefore, it should not hurt hiring prospects (given that firms recruit from the school, which many people on TLS appear to doubt). Also, I understand what you are saying about oppurtunity cost, however, I feel like I am not in a good place. I really do not like going to work...the thought sometimes make me sick to my stomach, but I end up sucking it up. Maybe if I get another job that I like in the finance field, I will be a little happier. But going to law school actually gets me excited (even if its not a top program).

2)- the class I took in undergrad were actually law school classes (meaning i was registered with the law school, subject to the same curve etc.). They allowed students with a certain GPA to petition to take graduate level law or business school (MBA) classes which I did.

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nealric
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby nealric » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:22 pm

1)- The Cardozo Program that begins in Jan is 2 1/2 years. Therefore, it should not hurt hiring prospects (given that firms recruit from the school, which many people on TLS appear to doubt). Also, I understand what you are saying about oppurtunity cost, however, I feel like I am not in a good place. I really do not like going to work...the thought sometimes make me sick to my stomach, but I end up sucking it up. Maybe if I get another job that I like in the finance field, I will be a little happier. But going to law school actually gets me excited (even if its not a top program).


It still causes problems. Firms tend to be skeptical of anything different. The fact that you will only have 1.5 semesters (assuming they require a summer school) come recruting time (which happens after 1L year) will be a problem. Also, lack of an opportunity for a 1L summer job will be a problem for firms.

Nobody doubts that large firms recruit at Cardozo. The problem is that they are only looking at a small slice of the student body.

Keep in mind that most people don't like working for large law firms- often for the same reasons they don't like banking. Grass is always greener and all.

seasurf
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby seasurf » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:27 pm

Nobody doubts that large firms recruit at Cardozo. The problem is that they are only looking at a small slice of the student body.

Keep in mind that most people don't like working for large law firms- often for the same reasons they don't like banking. Grass is always greener and all.


Thanks. I know many people do not like Big Law (and to be quite honest, I am not sure if that is exactly what I am looking for). I would actually consider working as an attorney with FINRA or the SEC, which appear to have some lawyers that graduated from Cardozo. Plus, my experience in public finance, I believe would get me a competitive edge because not many people go from analyst to regulators (typically vice-versa)

I just need to do my research more, but thanks for your advice.

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yinz
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby yinz » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:29 pm

seasurf wrote:(On the side note, I know analysts have a reputation for chasing skirts and bottle service, but my team is not one of those groups that blows lines of coke and chases after girls on rooftop bars- pretty much the opposite, most of us are exhausted and go home)


Perhaps this is why you aren't happy?

dukelawguy144
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby dukelawguy144 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:31 pm

seasurf wrote:
Nobody doubts that large firms recruit at Cardozo. The problem is that they are only looking at a small slice of the student body.

Keep in mind that most people don't like working for large law firms- often for the same reasons they don't like banking. Grass is always greener and all.


Thanks. I know many people do not like Big Law (and to be quite honest, I am not sure if that is exactly what I am looking for). I would actually consider working as an attorney with FINRA or the SEC, which appear to have some lawyers that graduated from Cardozo. Plus, my experience in public finance, I believe would get me a competitive edge because not many people go from analyst to regulators (typically vice-versa)

I just need to do my research more, but thanks for your advice.


Dude, you are fuckin retarded. SEC and FINRA lawyers mostly come from top tier schools so that argument does not work. Also, if you dont want big law, then you have NO reason to justify 160k in debt for a crappy law school. Not to mention, in your case, about 300-400k in lost income.

trust me bro, I dont know you, but you are making the worst decision of your life if you decide to go

dukelawguy144
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby dukelawguy144 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:32 pm

yinz wrote:
seasurf wrote:(On the side note, I know analysts have a reputation for chasing skirts and bottle service, but my team is not one of those groups that blows lines of coke and chases after girls on rooftop bars- pretty much the opposite, most of us are exhausted and go home)


Perhaps this is why you aren't happy?



+1

ajmanyjah
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby ajmanyjah » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:09 am

dukelawguy144 wrote:
seasurf wrote:
Nobody doubts that large firms recruit at Cardozo. The problem is that they are only looking at a small slice of the student body.

Keep in mind that most people don't like working for large law firms- often for the same reasons they don't like banking. Grass is always greener and all.


Thanks. I know many people do not like Big Law (and to be quite honest, I am not sure if that is exactly what I am looking for). I would actually consider working as an attorney with FINRA or the SEC, which appear to have some lawyers that graduated from Cardozo. Plus, my experience in public finance, I believe would get me a competitive edge because not many people go from analyst to regulators (typically vice-versa)

I just need to do my research more, but thanks for your advice.


Dude, you are fuckin retarded. SEC and FINRA lawyers mostly come from top tier schools so that argument does not work. Also, if you dont want big law, then you have NO reason to justify 160k in debt for a crappy law school. Not to mention, in your case, about 300-400k in lost income.

trust me bro, I dont know you, but you are making the worst decision of your life if you decide to go



Man, I hope real lawyers aren't like greedy law students on this board. Having tons of friends who went into finance and software, then burnt out, shows me it ain't all about the Benjamins.

I swear, I feel like coke dealing is a better path for a good segment of the population on here...80k a year ain't bad, but I guess when you've gone golfing with all your daddy's rich friends, it seems like poverty wages...

Hell, even if you are 100k in debt, you CAN pay it off and still live making 80k, millions of people do it all the time

As for the OP...have you thought about going DIRECTLY to the SEC and trying to get a job there? They are looking for analysts...

http://www.sec.gov/jobs/jobs_industrypr ... nals.shtml

Anyway, I would apply anyway (can't hurt) and take some shots, see where the chips fall, then rethink it. Alternately, have you thought of CUNY, not sure where it stands on securities law (always heard of it as Public Interest oriented), but it is DIRT cheap for in-state residents...10k or so

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dogmatic slumber
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Re: Investment Banker Needs Law school advice, 158

Postby dogmatic slumber » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:17 am

On a blatantly unrelated note, if OP would like to lend his/her financial expertise to the following thread, it would be much appreciated:

Student loans--another bubble waiting to burst?




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