I need a better plan...

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alexonfyre
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I need a better plan...

Postby alexonfyre » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:53 pm

Anyone who read my other thread knows that my UGrad GPA was pretty awful (2.8.) with an upward grade trend (0.0, literally, freshman year to deans list senior year.)
I generally test well, on a cold LSAT PT I got a 167, which seems pretty average from people I have seen on here, I plan on doing the class (after much debate) and hope to achieve at least that score when I take it 6 mos or so from now.
I have a lot of softs, student government, leadership helping establish an award-winning international education program (I-house), mock trial performance and leadership, community service, etc.
Right now I am getting two years working experience in marketing with a small financial company. It was my impression that work experience can balance a low GPA by showing good work ethic and a commitment to hard work, particularly with good recs and a well written statement about the same. (Obviously, I could be totally wrong there.)
My three major factors for law school are:
Quality (I want to be a judge or justice one day, and the academic portion of the law is really important to me)
Location (Need stuff to do to destress!)
Friends (Obviously you guys don't know that sort of stuff, but I will weigh that in myself.)

My dream schools are Boalt Hall, NYU, UChicago, and UCI (I like building things from the ground up), I haven't fully fleshed out my reasonable expectations schools, but they include Tulane, LSU and GSU.
Again, any insight at all about my position going into admissions. Am I even looking at the right schools?! Gah, in any case, thanks guys!

EDIT: Seems as though the MBA may not be a great (or even good) idea, so now I am just building a plan from the ground up. Read a lot of law school profiles, they all sound pretty good (damn marketing people!! oh wait...) I need to find a school that thinks like I do. Read a bit further down to see what that is. I really appreciate any help!
Last edited by alexonfyre on Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JWicker10
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Re: JD/MBA for me? Help!

Postby JWicker10 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:26 pm

I think your low GPA will pretty much keep you out of U of C, Boalt and NYU. Especially Boalt.

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irie
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Re: JD/MBA for me? Help!

Postby irie » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:37 pm

alexonfyre wrote:Anyone who read my other thread knows that my UGrad GPA was pretty awful (2.8.) with an upward grade trend (0.0, literally, freshman year to deans list senior year.)

Unfortunately this pretty much eliminates you from boalt, nyu, and u. chicago law.

alexonfyre wrote:Right now I am getting two years working experience in marketing with a small financial company.

and this is not going to be enough for haas, stern, or booth


not sure about the caliber of the other bschool programs, but keep in mind the cost (of tuition, and the opportunity cost of not working for 3-4 years) of getting a JD/MBA. don't commit to this lightly unless you have a good feel on the job prospects coming out, especially from a non-top-tier program ITE.

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JWicker10
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Re: JD/MBA for me? Help!

Postby JWicker10 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:57 pm

irie wrote:
alexonfyre wrote:Anyone who read my other thread knows that my UGrad GPA was pretty awful (2.8.) with an upward grade trend (0.0, literally, freshman year to deans list senior year.)

Unfortunately this pretty much eliminates you from boalt, nyu, and u. chicago law.

alexonfyre wrote:Right now I am getting two years working experience in marketing with a small financial company.

and this is not going to be enough for haas, stern, or booth


not sure about the caliber of the other bschool programs, but keep in mind the cost (of tuition, and the opportunity cost of not working for 3-4 years) of getting a JD/MBA. don't commit to this lightly unless you have a good feel on the job prospects coming out, especially from a non-top-tier program ITE.


Good point, those programs are extremely expensive and you may not get a very good ROI from a T2-T4.

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reasonable_man
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Re: JD/MBA for me? Help!

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:20 pm

Might be a silly question... But why do you need an MBA?

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acrossthelake
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Re: JD/MBA for me? Help!

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:34 pm

reasonable_man wrote:Might be a silly question... But why do you need an MBA?


+1 It won't help you become a judge/justice and you don't have the work experience needed to get into a top program anyway.

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General Tso
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Re: JD/MBA for me? Help!

Postby General Tso » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:38 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:Might be a silly question... But why do you need an MBA?


+1 It won't help you become a judge/justice and you don't have the work experience needed to get into a top program anyway.


All of this plus the fact that MBAs are best suited for those with Fortune 500, etc. type employers that will finance your MBA and have a promotion waiting for you on the other side. The MBA curriculum has even less real world applicability than that of a JD.

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alexonfyre
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Re: JD/MBA for me? Help!

Postby alexonfyre » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:18 pm

I plan on opening and running my own firm eventually, is the main reason I want an MBA. Other reasons: need a better background in econ, and I plan on doing a lot in labor law, which will require me to understand the finer points of running a business. It has been suggested to me by a number of lawyers I know and trust, (A lot of "I wish I had gone to business school" "I am thinking of going back to business school" "Don't underestimate what an MBA can teach you" etc. etc.)
It is a shame to hear that I can't make it into any of my reach schools, but I kind of expected that. Is there any way I can make T1? or am I pretty much relegated to T2s and 3s?

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JWicker10
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Re: JD/MBA for me? Help!

Postby JWicker10 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:24 pm

alexonfyre wrote:I plan on opening and running my own firm eventually, is the main reason I want an MBA. Other reasons: need a better background in econ, and I plan on doing a lot in labor law, which will require me to understand the finer points of running a business. It has been suggested to me by a number of lawyers I know and trust, (A lot of "I wish I had gone to business school" "I am thinking of going back to business school" "Don't underestimate what an MBA can teach you" etc. etc.)
It is a shame to hear that I can't make it into any of my reach schools, but I kind of expected that. Is there any way I can make T1? or am I pretty much relegated to T2s and 3s?


How can you relegate yourself to none of your dream schools and probably not the tier 1 altogether already? Take the LSAT, it's generally 60-80% of an admissions decision. If you get a 170+, I think you have a great chance of pulling off a top 20 if not a T14. 175+, and you definitely will pull a T14.

As for your reasoning, you do not need an MBA to run a firm. If you want an MBA you'll also have to take the GMAT which will affect your admissions decision. Moreover, you'll have to pay double tuition (or thereabouts) to enroll in a JD/MBA program.

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alexonfyre
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Re: JD/MBA for me? Help!

Postby alexonfyre » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:36 pm

I suppose the ROI is something to seriously consider. I took a practice GMAT, practically aced that thing, much easier than the LSAT, if it were about that I'm not worried.
I looked up tuition and it looks like you pretty much pay 2-3 years of the higher tuition rates and 1-2 years at the lower one. It isn't outrageous, but I am starting to wonder what it was those guys thought would have been so valuable as to pay an extra 30-40k.

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JWicker10
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Re: JD/MBA for me? Help!

Postby JWicker10 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:40 pm

alexonfyre wrote:I suppose the ROI is something to seriously consider. I took a practice GMAT, practically aced that thing, much easier than the LSAT, if it were about that I'm not worried.
I looked up tuition and it looks like you pretty much pay 2-3 years of the higher tuition rates and 1-2 years at the lower one. It isn't outrageous, but I am starting to wonder what it was those guys thought would have been so valuable as to pay an extra 30-40k.


Ya exactly. There are some interesting threads that have graphs analyzing the costs of similar programs and how they interpret potential ROIs. They take into account your loss of opportunity cost by not working, your loan payments and your taxing difference.

I think under most conditions it'd take you a solid 10 or more years to get a good ROI with your anticipated loans and loss of opportunity cost. I think it'd be a smart idea to run the numbers taking into account likely employment/salary without a JD or MBA, with a JD, and with a JD/MBA and then making the decision.

You can always go back for an MBA later, and maybe even get it paid for by your employer if you're lucky.

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alexonfyre
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Re: JD/MBA for me? Help!

Postby alexonfyre » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:43 pm

The MBA was supposed to be a way for me to offset the lofty and, sadly, uneconomic goals of my career in law.
It seems as though I was pretty confused about that, as usual, and I really appreciate that you highlighted that for me. To be completely honest, I didn't even think of the fact that the people I had talked to were already fairly successful in their own right, and had not gotten MBAs. Coupled with the fact that I couldn't find anything to support that JD/MBAs are more successful, at least by virtue of their education, I am having a hard time justifying it now. I haven't given it up entirely, but I am a bit less partial to it than I was at the beginning of the day.

I am ultimately faced with the same problem, though. The same basic question I am sure every newbie on here is trying to answer: Discounting the ones that will reject me based on some arbitrary statistical wall, which law school will best prepare me for my career...and how do I get them to accept me?
I'll probably be answering this question for months, and then re-answering it after getting my LSATs back.

I spent some time preparing a more in-depth sketch of myself, that you might be able to help me with it.

I'll say this plainly: regardless of ROI or the economy or whatever, I am going to get a J.D. That is a fact.
That was more strongly worded than is generally used on the internet, but I wanted to be clear on that point.
For those of us who are not Rudyard Kipling, expressing bare emotion in writing is difficult, and although it may not come across that way, I assure you that I mean no confrontation by it.

When I posted the thread, the JD/MBA seemed like a natural choice for me. Over the course of the day, I have begun to waiver.
My ultimate goal is to practice law as a force to improve and protect our society. I want to continue the work of the great jurists of history. Thurgood Marshall, William Blackstone, Thomas Jefferson. I can't, nor will I, compare myself with them, but I will say that I want to continue their work, in whatever capacity I am able to. My reasons for targeting high ranked law schools are not regarding money or job opportunity, but the ability to interact with and learn from the luminaries of our time. Money is really not an issue for me, as I cannot honestly put a price on that. I know I am talking like a doe-eyed 0L, and I will grant the great, jaded magi that I am exactly that. Trust me, when you talk like this on a regular basis, you build up a thick skin to eye-rolling, both literal and implied. My goal here is to find out what my best option is, and to do that I will be entirely honest with you guys, even if it means everyone here thinks I'm a tool.
So long as I am a tool with a plan that will work, I will be happy.

Thanks again!
--Alex

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acrossthelake
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Re: JD/MBA for me? Help!

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:48 pm

Nobody is attacking you either. :wink:

Most law school professors attended top schools. Lower-ranked law schools often still have very good professors. It's not necessary to go to a top law school to receive a quality legal education---the primary value of top law schools is your ability to get a job afterward. Try to get the best possible LSAT you can. Then, with that, go to a school ranked as high as you can while also minimizing debt(this last part is important).

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alexonfyre
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Re: JD/MBA for me? Help!

Postby alexonfyre » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:02 pm

Are there any schools in particular that tend to have, perhaps, over-qualified professors for a low job placement rate? All of the truly famous professors are at schools that sort UGPAs less than 3.2 straight into cabinet 13, are there any schools that have access to that caliber of teacher without the wall?

Nobody is attacking you either. :wink:

I am probably over defensive since my family thinks law is all about money, and for the last 4 years I have heard it from all sides whenever I bring it up.

EDIT: I thought of an even simpler question:
Where do the people that think like I do go to law school? I really don't mind if it is TTTT or whatever if it has other students who can and will engage in intelligent and stimulating debate. By the same reasoning I don't care if it is overseas, either.

TheOcho
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Re: JD/MBA for me? Help!

Postby TheOcho » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:51 pm

alexonfyre wrote:Are there any schools in particular that tend to have, perhaps, over-qualified professors for a low job placement rate? All of the truly famous professors are at schools that sort UGPAs less than 3.2 straight into cabinet 13, are there any schools that have access to that caliber of teacher without the wall?

Nobody is attacking you either. :wink:

I am probably over defensive since my family thinks law is all about money, and for the last 4 years I have heard it from all sides whenever I bring it up.

EDIT: I thought of an even simpler question:
Where do the people that think like I do go to law school? I really don't mind if it is TTTT or whatever if it has other students who can and will engage in intelligent and stimulating debate. By the same reasoning I don't care if it is overseas, either.


I recognize that you want a law degree because you have a general passion for the law. However, I think you need to seriously consider the financial aspect of your choice. If you do choose to attend a TTTT you're taking a huge risk, especially if you'll finish loaded with debt. Although your passion for the law is very respectable, it would be a shame if all that passion was drowned out by debt and a TTTT degree. Also, I think a lot of the students who can engage in the truly stimulating and intelligent debate probably attend tier 1 schools.

This isn't meant to be a deterrent, it just seems like you're taking the financial aspect (debt) of law school for granted.

*Que TLS vet...




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