I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

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romothesavior
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:30 pm

I have two pictures of my cat that would make awesome memes. If I can find a way to get them loaded to my computer, I will post.

keg411
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby keg411 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:30 pm

romothesavior wrote:I have two pictures of my cat that would make awesome memes. If I can find a way to get them loaded to my computer, I will post.


I want to see the cat memes :).

miamiman
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby miamiman » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:32 pm

Romo, I can't get it to work right!

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Matthies
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby Matthies » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:33 pm

miamiman wrote:Matthies, I have to politely disagree. This isn't a grad program in philosophy. This is a professional school with a tuition burden that could buy you a (nice) home. As such, I think there is a fair burden on the school to place its graduates into decent jobs.

When law schools charge insane tuition sums and then fraudulently distort their employment data, I think the outrage is justified. So, no, I don't think it's fair to say that law school are entirely upholding their end of the bargain.


Sure law school do provide plenty of information for student, mock interviews, set up OCI, have tones of resources available, can reoemnd what groups outside of the school to get involved with and bring amlnui to the school who stand around and talk to each other because the students are all against the wall.

What students do flock to is OCI which has a lower percentage of hiring, dropping of very quickly after the top schools. And mass mailing has a less than 1% success rate, but those are the two most popular job search menteds out there. The schools CSO can lead you to other, more successful, but also proactive methods, but most tend to ignore them.

Instead they look to 2007 and see how rosy that was, and think so long as I don't barf on the hiring partner in the 15 min interview I'll be fine. That does not work anymore, and that is NOT doing everything right. There is a fault of the schools they could do more, but so could the students.

In the end if you go to a great school your more than likely being hired because of your school, not because of you. If you go to a lower ranked school and get hired its likely because you were proactive and did not just rely on the standard job search tactics that work well up there, but are almost useless down in the trenches of LS life where most students go to school.

There are too many lawyers who go to LS because they could not find a job with their degree in X. Most of those find out you cannot find a job with you JD either. The kids who knew how to find work before LS are the same kinds of kids that are going to keep tryinging before, unlike the WSJ guy from Northwestern sent out 50 mas mailed resumes then gave up moved in with his parents to sell movies online.

The schools owe you and education and a JD, if they can also help you find a job AND you actually do the hard things they will suggest then that is a bonus. But a school is a school first and foremost, and the job search is up to the individual first and foremost.
Law school is not liitle league, upi don't get a pizza party if you lost the game, everyone is not a winner just becyase they got in and got a JD, some folks will keep trying and trying diffrent ways to find a good job, other will give up and look for someone to blame. No one puts a gun to your head and says you have to go to LS right now, before you work and save any money, or that you can't go PT and work to defer cost, or take sholorships. Students make choices, and student need to be also responsble for making choices that either leaed to good success for a job or not, and also need to realize when what your curently doing is NOT working, its time to try something new, hopefully bfore your 3L yeear

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dresden doll
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby dresden doll » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:34 pm

A'nold wrote:Actually, my friends, most of you DON'T "get it."

1. There is more to law school than biglaw.
2. Long-term, if you can get a job as an attorney and STAY in the field, it is a great long-term investment. The only thing people ever say is "go be an I-banker" if you want to make $$$$. Uh, what if you don't want to be an i-banker and what if you can't, haha.
3. There is a reason why not everyone in law school is guaranteed a job. I'd say with all of the attrition and other variables 50% succeeding isn't that bad.
4. Law school is worth the risk for most liberal arts grads w/ no prospects. The "opportunity cost" everyone claims does not exist, or at least it doesn't exist to the extent most on here will claim.
5. As matthies says over and over again, to rely on OCI is foolhardy and the majority of law grads in the country do not get jobs through this method or mass emailing. Gotta work for it. Sorry, just the way it is. It's funny, all of these t14 types are now crying about how hard it is when the vast majority of law students face this "difficulty" every year, regardless of the economy.

There is a lot more, but these are things that are just coming to mind right now.


That's all fine and fantastic but it doesn't go to say that law schools ought to charge exorbitant tuition while falsifying their employment stats and that onus ought to be on us to ascertain whether or not they're lying to us.

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A'nold
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby A'nold » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:36 pm

A'nold wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
A'nold wrote:
Lulz. I've heard this same crap for about 5 years. It's not the economy that brings these types out of the woodwork. They are depressed b/c THEY apparently made a bad decision by attending law school, usually for $$$$, when there was never really any chance of that to begin with. You never see, with the exception of very, very few, public (not anonymous JDU types) tier 1 or reasonable law school grads in the top 1/2 to 1/3 of their classes posting about how law is the worst decision you could ever make and making it a personal vendetta to try to make themselves feel better by "warning others" about the horror that is law while advocating that people become garbagemen or plumbers. If you were actually serious above, then congrats for buying into all the crap. I am a realist, not a doom and gloom or sunshine and daisies kind of guy. Don't believe everything you read.


You find it implausible that a T1 median student might regret going to law school for reasons completely related to economy?

Really, A'nold. I've always liked you but I have a hard time believing you sincerely think that. If so, your own success in law school has blinded you to the fact that 95 percent of your classmates don't enjoy the class rank you've got and will not have the opportunities you have acquired against odds (95 percent odds, to be specific, assuming I'm right and you're in the top 5 percent of your class right now).


I hear some of what you're saying, but I kind of don't get your main point. I think what? I think that about half of the total amount of law students in this country will get jobs in the legal field. Most will not be in biglaw. T14 grads have the best chance at biglaw jobs and in the top 14 it is possible to get a decent job even if you land below median. If you are at a school outside of the t17 or so, you will have a helluva time finding a legal job w/ below median grades.

I fail to see how any of this is new information or that it shocks anyone. Finish above median. If you aren't willing to take that risk, go to HYS or go for a HUGE discount. /thread.


That's all fine and well but it doesn't make it okay for law schools to spew bullshit employment statistics to entice anyone with a pulse to pay exorbitant tuition for the privilege of attending an institution highly unlikely to provide a job sufficient to make it all worth their while.

While I find lots of these scamblog websites relatively uninteresting and somewhat irritating, I do think they provide something of a valuable service to a certain extent. Their existence makes it at least partially possible for us to conclude that it's necessary 'to finish above median' and that one should 'go to HYS or go for HUGE discount' if unwilling 'to take that risk.'[/quote]

Put that way, yeah, of course. I think schools like Cooley and Hofstra, etc. stack the odds against applicants and charge way too much. I'm talking about students making decent decisions, not about students not going to law school at all b/c of these JDU'ers when there are great reasons for them to attend.

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romothesavior
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:36 pm

keg411 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I have two pictures of my cat that would make awesome memes. If I can find a way to get them loaded to my computer, I will post.


I want to see the cat memes :).


My cat is fucking adorable too. Anybody know a way to get pictures from a cell phone to my computer? I don't have a cable or anything like that... is it possible to send it to a website or something?

Here is a picture of him as a kitten to hold you over til I figure it out:

--ImageRemoved--

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goawaybee
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby goawaybee » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:39 pm

romothesavior wrote:
keg411 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I have two pictures of my cat that would make awesome memes. If I can find a way to get them loaded to my computer, I will post.


I want to see the cat memes :).


My cat is fucking adorable too. Anybody know a way to get pictures from a cell phone to my computer? I don't have a cable or anything like that... is it possible to send it to a website or something?

Here is a picture of him as a kitten to hold you over til I figure it out:

--ImageRemoved--



cute kitten fa sho. I posted mine in some thread. I must admit the memes you posted on that barry/nova thread inspired me to make a best of folder on my desktop. There was another thread that was loaded as well. "I like where this thread is headed", In befo da lock...hataz or some shit. Are you mad bruh. few others AMAZING.

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La Grind Date
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby La Grind Date » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:42 pm

A'nold wrote:Actually, my friends, most of you DON'T "get it."

3. There is a reason why not everyone in law school is guaranteed a job. I'd say with all of the attrition and other variables 50% succeeding isn't that bad.


What makes you think that around 50% of law school grads are getting legal jobs?

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traehekat
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby traehekat » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:43 pm

Romo, I'm diggin' the Illini visor.

EDIT: The cat is also pretty adorable.

dempsey
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby dempsey » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:44 pm

I don't always appreciate the hectoring tone, and think the (justified) anger is often misdirected to aspiring law students, but I am increasingly convinced that the 'scam-bloggers' are doing something worth doing. I can't understand the simple acceptance that law schools are grossly misleading everyone. I know we tend to dismiss aspiring law students as overly entitled and pie in the sky liberal-arts majors who aren't worth a damn, we effectively reduce them to some sort of abstraction, and then when so many are pretty much gutted we merely shrug. But, forgive me for the sentimentality and mawkishness, but many of us law students are in fact worth a damn, and head to law school because we have the audacity to trust the educational institutions that we have been told all our lives are bastions of virtue and the reservoirs of all things good. And yeah, a mere search of the internet should give one pause, but there are at least enough mixed signals out there to justify a student ultimately concluding that a legal education would benefit him/her. And in the end so much of it is bulls*%! and a lot of decent people are ruined. And that should make people angry, and the institutions that know better should be made accountable, and can be made accountable.

edit: and ur cat is fucking adorable

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schmohawk
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby schmohawk » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:54 pm

A'nold wrote:Actually, my friends, most of you DON'T "get it."

1. There is more to law school than biglaw.
2. Long-term, if you can get a job as an attorney and STAY in the field, it is a great long-term investment. The only thing people ever say is "go be an I-banker" if you want to make $$$$. Uh, what if you don't want to be an i-banker and what if you can't, haha.
3. There is a reason why not everyone in law school is guaranteed a job. I'd say with all of the attrition and other variables 50% succeeding isn't that bad.
4. Law school is worth the risk for most liberal arts grads w/ no prospects. The "opportunity cost" everyone claims does not exist, or at least it doesn't exist to the extent most on here will claim.
5. As matthies says over and over again, to rely on OCI is foolhardy and the majority of law grads in the country do not get jobs through this method or mass emailing. Gotta work for it. Sorry, just the way it is. It's funny, all of these t14 types are now crying about how hard it is when the vast majority of law students face this "difficulty" every year, regardless of the economy.

There is a lot more, but these are things that are just coming to mind right now.


+1000. Excellent points.

Anyone who has worked full-time knows that there is a difference between a job and a career. A career is something you have to work at, put years of dedication into, to reap any rewards. It doesn't matter what the fuck you make 9 months after graduating, what matters is you're doing your life's calling. I think people who call law school a scam are truly idiots who thought it was a get-rich-quick scheme to begin with. Grow up Peter Pan.

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romothesavior
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:56 pm

I love a'nold and matthies... two of my favorite posters by far. But I do think you guys are oversimplifying it a bit. As much as I wish I could say law school is a good investment for anyone who puts in the work and busts their ass to find a job, I simply don't know if it is true. The blame doesn't always fall on the student, and sometimes you can do everything right and still get it wrong. And I also am skeptical of the argument that long term it is always a wise decision. Most people who were unsuccessful early on simply leave the field, meaning that most middle aged lawyers are doing well.

Law school is, in a lot of ways, a scam. I don't know if there is any way around that.

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A'nold
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby A'nold » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:57 pm

schmohawk wrote:
A'nold wrote:Actually, my friends, most of you DON'T "get it."

1. There is more to law school than biglaw.
2. Long-term, if you can get a job as an attorney and STAY in the field, it is a great long-term investment. The only thing people ever say is "go be an I-banker" if you want to make $$$$. Uh, what if you don't want to be an i-banker and what if you can't, haha.
3. There is a reason why not everyone in law school is guaranteed a job. I'd say with all of the attrition and other variables 50% succeeding isn't that bad.
4. Law school is worth the risk for most liberal arts grads w/ no prospects. The "opportunity cost" everyone claims does not exist, or at least it doesn't exist to the extent most on here will claim.
5. As matthies says over and over again, to rely on OCI is foolhardy and the majority of law grads in the country do not get jobs through this method or mass emailing. Gotta work for it. Sorry, just the way it is. It's funny, all of these t14 types are now crying about how hard it is when the vast majority of law students face this "difficulty" every year, regardless of the economy.

There is a lot more, but these are things that are just coming to mind right now.


+1000. Excellent points.

Anyone who has worked full-time knows that there is a difference between a job and a career. A career is something you have to work at, put years of dedication into, to reap any rewards. It doesn't matter what the fuck you make 9 months after graduating, what matters is you're doing your life's calling. I think people who call law school a scam are truly idiots who thought it was a get-rich-quick scheme to begin with. Grow up Peter Pan.


WHAT?! GTFO of here w/ your logic and maturity! This thread is for people that are scared of their prospects but are still dropping 200k on an education b/c they secretly feel they will be the exception, not the rule.

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Matthies
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby Matthies » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:57 pm

dresden doll wrote:
A'nold wrote:Actually, my friends, most of you DON'T "get it."

1. There is more to law school than biglaw.
2. Long-term, if you can get a job as an attorney and STAY in the field, it is a great long-term investment. The only thing people ever say is "go be an I-banker" if you want to make $$$$. Uh, what if you don't want to be an i-banker and what if you can't, haha.
3. There is a reason why not everyone in law school is guaranteed a job. I'd say with all of the attrition and other variables 50% succeeding isn't that bad.
4. Law school is worth the risk for most liberal arts grads w/ no prospects. The "opportunity cost" everyone claims does not exist, or at least it doesn't exist to the extent most on here will claim.
5. As matthies says over and over again, to rely on OCI is foolhardy and the majority of law grads in the country do not get jobs through this method or mass emailing. Gotta work for it. Sorry, just the way it is. It's funny, all of these t14 types are now crying about how hard it is when the vast majority of law students face this "difficulty" every year, regardless of the economy.

There is a lot more, but these are things that are just coming to mind right now.


That's all fine and fantastic but it doesn't go to say that law schools ought to charge exorbitant tuition while falsifying their employment stats and that onus ought to be on us to ascertain whether or not they're lying to us.


I agree that school stats are highly misleading. But having had to fill them out, I was one of the few, employed or not, sho did it. Or followed up. None of my friends who were employed did. Kind of selfifh, but you have to remember they were asking in the middle of finales, then at graduation, then twice during the bar exam, all bad times when people did not feel like filling them out.

All that being said prospective law students do a ton of research on schools, they sign on to LSN, make perdition of their scores, take classes for the LSAT have ever rank of every law school memorized. But how many of them go out and talk to working lawyers before they go to law school, or in law school, or find mentors. They just assume, like 45000 others each year that they will be good at a profesion they know thing about. Its like LS are the most data hungry people I know, so long as that data does not involve actually talking to judge or lawyers who have been in the field for a long time. "Biglaw" is a relaticly new phenomena, for the vast majority of its history lawyers tended to be entrupunuars, start their own firms. Today's kids don't want that, they want an office job, well law ends up being more like sales, even at a big firm they there ever expected.

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A'nold
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby A'nold » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:01 am

romothesavior wrote:I love a'nold and matthies... two of my favorite posters by far. But I do think you guys are oversimplifying it a bit. As much as I wish I could say law school is a good investment for anyone who puts in the work and busts their ass to find a job, I simply don't know if it is true. The blame doesn't always fall on the student, and sometimes you can do everything right and still get it wrong. And I also am skeptical of the argument that long term it is always a wise decision. Most people who were unsuccessful early on simply leave the field, meaning that most middle aged lawyers are doing well.

Law school is, in a lot of ways, a scam. I don't know if there is any way around that.


Whoa there tiger. :wink: You misquoted me twice man!

1. I never said that it is a good investment for everyone and that anyone who puts in the work gets a job. In fact, wasn't I the one that said like only 50% of students that begin law school get a legal job?
2. Also, never said that long term it is always a wise decision AND I actually believe I said "if they stay in the field." Totally preempted your ass. :)

notreallyalawyer
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby notreallyalawyer » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:02 am

People do care.[/quote]
About the little pie insignia on the meter, yes! That was very clever. Your blog.... not so much. Good times.[/quote]

hahaha, its PI, duh. someone is obviously not bound for a T14

dempsey
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby dempsey » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:04 am

Matthies, A'nold, many good points (a little simplified in my opinion, but lots of truth there too). But still, shouldn't schools be compelled to accurately report the outcomes for their students? Certainly this can be accomplished somehow, and it would take a lot of wind out of the sails of the scam-bloggers

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Matthies
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby Matthies » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:07 am

romothesavior wrote:I love a'nold and matthies... two of my favorite posters by far. But I do think you guys are oversimplifying it a bit. As much as I wish I could say law school is a good investment for anyone who puts in the work and busts their ass to find a job, I simply don't know if it is true. The blame doesn't always fall on the student, and sometimes you can do everything right and still get it wrong. And I also am skeptical of the argument that long term it is always a wise decision. Most people who were unsuccessful early on simply leave the field, meaning that most middle aged lawyers are doing well.

Law school is, in a lot of ways, a scam. I don't know if there is any way around that.


I agree with this in part, that for many ls ends up not deliverying the goods. The problem is most prospective studnts have no ida what the good are. Their only kowlage comes from looking at US NEw and NLJ250 numbers, none of that tells you what lawyers actually do. I would say half way into my class a good 30% of my classmates did not want to be lawyers anymore. At graduation we had to list 4 lawyers on our bar app, I had tones of ffreinds who did not even know 4 lawyers. If your ide of law school is this: gget top 10%, get OCI job, get SA, get offer, stay with firm. and you have NO backup plan whatsoevere yea your going to say I did everything right, everthimng your clueless classmates did, but if you went to CSO and actually did what they said you would have other options. Most dont. How may more posts doo we need to see that say finsihed mid of class, killself? Its obviouse these folks have no idea, or maybe ablity, to help themslves. You will tell them to go to CSO, and they will says I allready did that, can't i just send out 500 resumes and a get a job for 160k? NO.

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romothesavior
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:07 am

YESSSSSSS!!!! I figured it out

--ImageRemoved--

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jayn3
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby jayn3 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:10 am

romothesavior wrote:YESSSSSSS!!!! I figured it out

--ImageRemoved--


fail. that cat clearly looks interested in something.

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romothesavior
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:20 am

schmohawk wrote:I think people who call law school a scam are truly idiots who thought it was a get-rich-quick scheme to begin with. Grow up Peter Pan.


Scam n.- A fraudulent or deceptive act or operation.

If the use of extremely misleading statistics and (sometimes) straight up lies for the purpose of convincing students to make an unwise 6-figure investment isn't a scam, then I'd like to hear your opinion on what is.

And yes a'nold, it is late... my RC was poor on that one. :D But I do still think maybe you're overstating it a bit, and I'd imagine many of your classmates are SOL right now.

BTW, if I'm not the first person you tell about your WUSTL transfer decision I will be very upset. :D

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schmohawk
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby schmohawk » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:23 am

romothesavior wrote:The blame doesn't always fall on the student, and sometimes you can do everything right and still get it wrong.


Are we still talking about jobs now, or is this some philosophical discussion on life? Look, not getting hired is just life sometimes. You just keep trying. Read a book on Abe Lincoln and then come back with your talk of blame and entitlement.

romothesavior wrote:And I also am skeptical of the argument that long term it is always a wise decision. Most people who were unsuccessful early on simply leave the field, meaning that most middle aged lawyers are doing well.


False. That's a gross generalization, and just because someone leaves the field early has nothing to do with his/her success. A lot of lawyers either A) get burned out but by definition are technically "successful" in their annual salary, or B) lose their passion or find they never really had a passion for it. Also, there are some attorneys out there who have been in the game for decades, and they are doing well for the same reason anyone else does well over the long haul...they put their time in and built a book. Maybe those who spend their time griping on online forums about not getting hired anyway could go out and start building their own book. I mean my goodness you have a degree, go out and get that paper. Life isn't going to slow down and wait for you.

romothesavior wrote:Law school is, in a lot of ways, a scam. I don't know if there is any way around that.


No, it really isn't. Are there some shady schools out there that are scamming students? I don't know, maybe. But to say law school as a system is a scam is completely retarded. A scam is watching infomercials at 3:00 am, hearing some whacko go on about buying foreclosed properties, buying his book, and not turning a profit. That's a scam. Law school is an education. It's not for everybody, and those who end up bitter are probably the ones who never took the time to find a real job for a little while or at least looked into the profession a little more than a google search. They probably never should have applied.

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romothesavior
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:26 am

Abe Lincoln was pre-ITE.

HTH

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Grizz
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby Grizz » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:26 am

I love it when threads degenerate in to memes. Matlock, this one's for you.



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go to the website and seach "advice matlock"




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