I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

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miamiman
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby miamiman » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:10 pm

romothesavior wrote:
FirstTierToilet wrote:
miamiman wrote:Matthies, I have to politely disagree. This isn't a grad program in philosophy. This is a professional school with a tuition burden that could buy you a (nice) home. As such, I think there is a fair burden on the school to place its graduates into decent jobs.

When law schools charge insane tuition sums and then fraudulently distort their employment data, I think the outrage is justified. So, no, I don't think it's fair to say that law school are entirely upholding their end of the bargain.


This guy gets it.


Most of us get it. That's why we really don't care what you have to say.


Apparently, I get it more.

keg411
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby keg411 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:10 pm

Meh, I agree with Matthies. No one deserves a high-paying job just because they pay $$$$ to go to school. Of course tuition is insanely through the roof, but it's not like paying the profs/administration is ultra-cheap and if people are willing to pay (and the gov't is willing to lend), then the schools have no reason to bring down tuition and can justify it by saying that they are able to make the facilities better/hire better personnel/etc. All of the people who work at a school have jobs too and they want raises and $$$$ just the same as the students.

So I can see why (especially private schools) charge what they do. Do I agree with it and do I think tuition is a major issue? Yes. But what incentive do school have to charge less?

ETA: I do think starting salary statistics are BS and dangerously close to false advertising. But until people push the ABA to regulate it, nothing will (unfortunately) change.
Last edited by keg411 on Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dresden doll
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby dresden doll » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:12 pm

miamiman wrote:
goawaybee wrote:- miami- they don't really have much of responsibility other than to take the checks, put them in the bank and pay their employees. I would like to think otherwise but reality seems to say they are a tool, you can use them or the roles can be reversed.


No, they have an obligation, I'd imagine legally, to present honest employment outcomes. Right now, many schools do not meet that standard. When Hofstra Law tells you their median private practice salary is $160k, there is something more than a little fucked up about what law schools are able to get away with.


This is clearly true and completely unaffected by any cliche-like 'law schools are just businesses' argument. If any other business lied as blatantly as some law schools do, they'd have been in hot water with Better Business Bureau about a million of years ago.

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jayn3
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby jayn3 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:12 pm

i really enjoy threads where noobs try to tell a'nold he doesn't know what he's talking about. just sayin'

FirstTierToilet
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby FirstTierToilet » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:14 pm

keg411 wrote:Meh, I agree with Matthies. No one deserves a high-paying job just because they pay $$$$ to go to school. Of course tuition is insanely through the roof, but it's not like paying the profs/administration is ultra-cheap and if people are willing to pay (and the gov't is willing to lend), then the schools have no reason to bring down tuition and can justify it by saying that they are able to make the facilities better/hire better personnel/etc. All of the people who work at a school have jobs too and they want raises and $$$$ just the same as the students.

So I can see why (especially private schools) charge what they do. Do I agree with it and do I think tuition is a major issue? Yes. But what incentive do school have to charge less?


Keg, read my post "Why We Go to Law School: A Popular Defense" on my blog (posted on my profile). I address the folly of acquiescence.

miamiman
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby miamiman » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:15 pm

FirstTierToilet wrote:
keg411 wrote:Meh, I agree with Matthies. No one deserves a high-paying job just because they pay $$$$ to go to school. Of course tuition is insanely through the roof, but it's not like paying the profs/administration is ultra-cheap and if people are willing to pay (and the gov't is willing to lend), then the schools have no reason to bring down tuition and can justify it by saying that they are able to make the facilities better/hire better personnel/etc. All of the people who work at a school have jobs too and they want raises and $$$$ just the same as the students.

So I can see why (especially private schools) charge what they do. Do I agree with it and do I think tuition is a major issue? Yes. But what incentive do school have to charge less?


Keg, read my post "Why We Go to Law School: A Popular Defense" on my blog (posted on my profile). I address the folly of acquiescence.


Rather than reference some useless one-liner in your blog, you mind summarizing your point?

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A'nold
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby A'nold » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:15 pm

dresden doll wrote:
A'nold wrote:
nycsoul87 wrote:
A'nold wrote:ITT: JDU'ers and aspiring JDU'ers show their skills at putting their own tiny pink failures on others.



Honestly, you're just screwing yourself over if you really think that. You've been here awhile- you should know better at this point. Stop pretending to be a lemming...

Calling every person who comes on here to help 0Ls out a JDUer isn't helping.

PSA: It's not just JDU, even the mainstream media has picked up that law school is increasingly becoming a losing proposition.

It's fine if you think otherwise, I kindof do too. But stop pretending that everything is okay. If you don't go in with the mindset that you're going to have to fight tooth and nail for your dream, you're setting yourself up for failure.

I like TLS and its helped me a lot over this past year. I also appreciate all the scam bloggers for letting us know how hard it is out there. You should too...



Lulz. I've heard this same crap for about 5 years. It's not the economy that brings these types out of the woodwork. They are depressed b/c THEY apparently made a bad decision by attending law school, usually for $$$$, when there was never really any chance of that to begin with. You never see, with the exception of very, very few, public (not anonymous JDU types) tier 1 or reasonable law school grads in the top 1/2 to 1/3 of their classes posting about how law is the worst decision you could ever make and making it a personal vendetta to try to make themselves feel better by "warning others" about the horror that is law while advocating that people become garbagemen or plumbers. If you were actually serious above, then congrats for buying into all the crap. I am a realist, not a doom and gloom or sunshine and daisies kind of guy. Don't believe everything you read.


You find it implausible that a T1 median student might regret going to law school for reasons completely related to economy?

Really, A'nold. I've always liked you but I have a hard time believing you sincerely think that. If so, your own success in law school has blinded you to the fact that 95 percent of your classmates don't enjoy the class rank you've got and will not have the opportunities you have acquired against odds (95 percent odds, to be specific, assuming I'm right and you're in the top 5 percent of your class right now).


I hear some of what you're saying, but I kind of don't get your main point. I think what? I think that about half of the total amount of law students in this country will get jobs in the legal field. Most will not be in biglaw. T14 grads have the best chance at biglaw jobs and in the top 14 it is possible to get a decent job even if you land below median. If you are at a school outside of the t17 or so, you will have a helluva time finding a legal job w/ below median grades.

I fail to see how any of this is new information or that it shocks anyone. Finish above median. If you aren't willing to take that risk, go to HYS or go for a HUGE discount. /thread.

keg411
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby keg411 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:15 pm

FirstTierToilet wrote:
keg411 wrote:Meh, I agree with Matthies. No one deserves a high-paying job just because they pay $$$$ to go to school. Of course tuition is insanely through the roof, but it's not like paying the profs/administration is ultra-cheap and if people are willing to pay (and the gov't is willing to lend), then the schools have no reason to bring down tuition and can justify it by saying that they are able to make the facilities better/hire better personnel/etc. All of the people who work at a school have jobs too and they want raises and $$$$ just the same as the students.

So I can see why (especially private schools) charge what they do. Do I agree with it and do I think tuition is a major issue? Yes. But what incentive do school have to charge less?


Keg, read my post "Why We Go to Law School: A Popular Defense" on my blog (posted on my profile). I address the folly of acquiescence.


Did you have a job after undergrad? Or did you go straight to law school? Just curious.

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romothesavior
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:16 pm

goawaybee wrote:I am always fascinated by posts like this.

people make poor decisions and do what society/parents projected was the best way to get ahead in the world. Nothing shocking. If they end up 200k in the hole and can't find a way to service their debt and life a decent life then blammo. They have learned an invaluable lesson. It is a shame to see loads of young people have to face reality but regardless of their level of education or career path they will indeed have to face reality at some point in their lives whether at 22,35 or 65.

The legal field is competitive, WHOA that is shocking. Kind of reminds me of every other profession or industry in existence. Some a little more or less competitive but if you want to get ahead you have to bust ass, eat some pooh every now and again...even then nothing is written in stone. Entitled to nothing.

Gotta hustle. All the facts and figures come across as just that to most people. Until they are living that reality it is just a scary little concept that surfaces every now and again. I don't see why everyone has to spew out with such rage to attempt to point out the obvious. Some will rise to the occasion and some will fail. Darwinism style. It is a fantastic little thing going on in the world.

If you bite off more than you can chew, you have to learn to call it and get out of the game. Now if people get into big law to pay off their loans, stack a few chips and then head off to the pasture that appears a bit more green, right on. Makes room for the new herd of sheep to enter. Some will be slaughtered some will be spared.

I just don't see why everyone gets so worked up about it. It isn't community service. Handle yours and let those destined for failure fail. Spend your time getting ahead. Amazing what the internet does. Imagine 20 years ago. You had a few print publications, TV and the newspaper. That is what you were working off of. Just get out on the field and play the game. Shake some hands, bust some ass and see what comes of it.

blah blah.

If you want to face reality before attending LS, go for it. It is cold and hard. If it is all about T14, getting into big law to service debt accrued at T14 or higher only to wander off course after 6 years....WTF

Wash, rinse and repeat it. For a decade. Things will all get sorted out. Law school is a business. We have to keep the money circulating. I assume they are fairly profitable, Casino money.

You can either pay them or exit without owing anybody a cent. Have fun with it. If money and elitist BS is your game the real world will serve you up. worry not. One day you will look in the mirror, say F this and find a more enjoyable way to navigate your day to day.

Live a good life, if you allow the negativity to penetrate it will consume you. You can mask it as reality but that is a tad blanket like. To each his/her own. Everyones story is different, sure maybe there are trends but no reason to wake up every day dissatisfied and go and piss in the rest of the worlds corn flakes. Not like everyone is running up in your has jumping on your bed and droppin' drawers and giving you a shower everyday when the alarm goes off
.


Image
Last edited by romothesavior on Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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vanwinkle
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:16 pm

FirstTierToilet wrote:Keg, read my post "Why We Go to Law School: A Popular Defense" on my blog (posted on my profile). I address the folly of acquiescence.

Image

I don't understand why people don't take me seriously. I have one of these.

miamiman
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby miamiman » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:16 pm

Romo, I don't know how to manipulate photos like that. Can you make one for me???

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goawaybee
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby goawaybee » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:17 pm

miamiman wrote:
goawaybee wrote:- miami- they don't really have much of responsibility other than to take the checks, put them in the bank and pay their employees. I would like to think otherwise but reality seems to say they are a tool, you can use them or the roles can be reversed.


No, they have an obligation, I'd imagine legally, to present honest employment outcomes. Right now, many schools do not meet that standard. When Hofstra Law tells you their median private practice salary is $160k, there is something more than a little fucked up about what law schools are able to get away with.



I hear you on a "REAL" level. I am all about some honesty/truth in advertising type of life but I am not going to believe any of their numbers. It is a shame b/c it makes it very difficult when making a decision such as where to attend, but just like everything else in life. Risky Bus.

I think it is a damn shame that it is all such a racket. GPA/LSAT and not much else considered, allowing a bunch of young people to dive into a pond and leaving them to drown, misrepresenting employment stats, absurd tuition etc...I do find it amusing to the extent you would like to believe that in this profession ethics/honesty/etc SHOULD reign supreme but they seem to feel/act otherwise.


Thank you for the meme thing Romo. I always feel honored when I get one of those.

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romothesavior
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:18 pm

goawaybee wrote:- miami- they don't really have much of responsibility other than to take the checks, put them in the bank and pay their employees. I would like to think otherwise but reality seems to say they are a tool, you can use them or the roles can be reversed.


So it would be okay if publicly traded companies lied and made shit up about their financial strength and profits?

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romothesavior
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:19 pm

goawaybee wrote:Thank you for the meme thing Romo. I always feel honored when I get one of those.


No no... thank you. I only reserve them for truly deserving posts.

miamiman
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby miamiman » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:19 pm

romothesavior wrote:
goawaybee wrote:- miami- they don't really have much of responsibility other than to take the checks, put them in the bank and pay their employees. I would like to think otherwise but reality seems to say they are a tool, you can use them or the roles can be reversed.


So it would be okay if publicly traded companies lied and made shit up about their financial strength and profits?

Yes, it's called mark to market accounting.

EDIT: please, if that's not a 180, I don't know what is.
Last edited by miamiman on Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

keg411
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby keg411 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:19 pm

Aw, I wanted to find out if he went straight out of undergrad :(. My guess is the answer was "yes". I have yet to read a scamblog from someone who hasn't (though if someone has, I'd be curious to read it since it would likely have a different perspective).

ETA: Still, I think I've decided to play the position of the law schools now whenever these arguments come up from now on :D.
Last edited by keg411 on Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:20 pm

miamiman wrote:Romo, I don't know how to manipulate photos like that. Can you make one for me???


I actually just found that one via a Google Images search, but you can make them at memegenerator.com and then upload it to Photobucket. That's what I usually do. They're good fun.

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dresden doll
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby dresden doll » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:20 pm

A'nold wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
A'nold wrote:
nycsoul87 wrote:
Honestly, you're just screwing yourself over if you really think that. You've been here awhile- you should know better at this point. Stop pretending to be a lemming...

Calling every person who comes on here to help 0Ls out a JDUer isn't helping.

PSA: It's not just JDU, even the mainstream media has picked up that law school is increasingly becoming a losing proposition.

It's fine if you think otherwise, I kindof do too. But stop pretending that everything is okay. If you don't go in with the mindset that you're going to have to fight tooth and nail for your dream, you're setting yourself up for failure.

I like TLS and its helped me a lot over this past year. I also appreciate all the scam bloggers for letting us know how hard it is out there. You should too...



Lulz. I've heard this same crap for about 5 years. It's not the economy that brings these types out of the woodwork. They are depressed b/c THEY apparently made a bad decision by attending law school, usually for $$$$, when there was never really any chance of that to begin with. You never see, with the exception of very, very few, public (not anonymous JDU types) tier 1 or reasonable law school grads in the top 1/2 to 1/3 of their classes posting about how law is the worst decision you could ever make and making it a personal vendetta to try to make themselves feel better by "warning others" about the horror that is law while advocating that people become garbagemen or plumbers. If you were actually serious above, then congrats for buying into all the crap. I am a realist, not a doom and gloom or sunshine and daisies kind of guy. Don't believe everything you read.


You find it implausible that a T1 median student might regret going to law school for reasons completely related to economy?

Really, A'nold. I've always liked you but I have a hard time believing you sincerely think that. If so, your own success in law school has blinded you to the fact that 95 percent of your classmates don't enjoy the class rank you've got and will not have the opportunities you have acquired against odds (95 percent odds, to be specific, assuming I'm right and you're in the top 5 percent of your class right now).


I hear some of what you're saying, but I kind of don't get your main point. I think what? I think that about half of the total amount of law students in this country will get jobs in the legal field. Most will not be in biglaw. T14 grads have the best chance at biglaw jobs and in the top 14 it is possible to get a decent job even if you land below median. If you are at a school outside of the t17 or so, you will have a helluva time finding a legal job w/ below median grades.

I fail to see how any of this is new information or that it shocks anyone. Finish above median. If you aren't willing to take that risk, go to HYS or go for a HUGE discount. /thread.


That's all fine and well but it doesn't make it okay for law schools to spew bullshit employment statistics to entice anyone with a pulse to pay exorbitant tuition for the privilege of attending an institution highly unlikely to provide a job sufficient to make it all worth their while.

While I find lots of these scamblog websites relatively uninteresting and somewhat irritating, I do think they provide something of a valuable service to a certain extent. Their existence makes it at least partially possible for us to conclude that it's necessary 'to finish above median' and that one should 'go to HYS or go for HUGE discount' if unwilling 'to take that risk.'

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby Mr. Matlock » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:21 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Image

I must have worked with my dog over 20 minutes yesterday, trying to get a picture of him making that head cocked to the side confused look. He finally got tired and went to lay down. Would have been a great picture for a meme. I just can't get him to see my "vision". :|

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goawaybee
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby goawaybee » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:23 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Image

I must have worked with my dog over 20 minutes yesterday, trying to get a picture of him making that head cocked to the side confused look. He finally got tired and went to lay down. Would have been a great picture for a meme. I just can't get him to see my "vision". :|


FUNNY...I was working with my kittens yesterday. I feel that they also lacked the "vision". damn shame.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby Mr. Matlock » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:24 pm

This is as close as I came:

Image

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goawaybee
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby goawaybee » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:26 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:This is as close as I came:

Image



You can def. work with that. One of those situations where you have to build the story around the image.

keg411
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby keg411 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:26 pm

The problem is that the law schools themselves have NO INCENTIVE to change. A few angry bloggers isn't going to stop schools from T14 to TTTT from charging high tuition. To them, they need the tuition $$$ to pay faculty and staff, to do construction projects, to give out scholarships, etc. Schools don't run themselves. Unless there is a REAL incentive for the schools to change (whether it be required by the ABA, etc.), they won't. And a few blogs isn't going to change anything. Trying to convince poli-sci majors not to go to law school isn't going to change anything.

I'm sure if the bloggers formed a PAC, raised money and petitioned the ABA, maybe they could get something to change. Maybe the "Law School Transparency" project will end up having legs. But most people leave the profession before they even get to that point.

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A'nold
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby A'nold » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:28 pm

Actually, my friends, most of you DON'T "get it."

1. There is more to law school than biglaw.
2. Long-term, if you can get a job as an attorney and STAY in the field, it is a great long-term investment. The only thing people ever say is "go be an I-banker" if you want to make $$$$. Uh, what if you don't want to be an i-banker and what if you can't, haha.
3. There is a reason why not everyone in law school is guaranteed a job. I'd say with all of the attrition and other variables 50% succeeding isn't that bad.
4. Law school is worth the risk for most liberal arts grads w/ no prospects. The "opportunity cost" everyone claims does not exist, or at least it doesn't exist to the extent most on here will claim.
5. As matthies says over and over again, to rely on OCI is foolhardy and the majority of law grads in the country do not get jobs through this method or mass emailing. Gotta work for it. Sorry, just the way it is. It's funny, all of these t14 types are now crying about how hard it is when the vast majority of law students face this "difficulty" every year, regardless of the economy.

There is a lot more, but these are things that are just coming to mind right now.

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goawaybee
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Re: I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace

Postby goawaybee » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:29 pm

A'nold wrote:Actually, my friends, most of you DON'T "get it."

1. There is more to law school than biglaw.
2. Long-term, if you can get a job as an attorney and STAY in the field, it is a great long-term investment. The only thing people ever say is "go be an I-banker" if you want to make $$$$. Uh, what if you don't want to be an i-banker and what if you can't, haha.
3. There is a reason why not everyone in law school is guaranteed a job. I'd say with all of the attrition and other variables 50% succeeding isn't that bad.
4. Law school is worth the risk for most liberal arts grads w/ no prospects. The "opportunity cost" everyone claims does not exist, or at least it doesn't exist to the extent most on here will claim.
5. As matthies says over and over again, to rely on OCI is foolhardy and the majority of law grads in the country do not get jobs through this method or mass emailing. Gotta work for it. Sorry, just the way it is. It's funny, all of these t14 types are now crying about how hard it is when the vast majority of law students face this "difficulty" every year, regardless of the economy.

There is a lot more, but these are things that are just coming to mind right now.
keg411 wrote:The problem is that the law schools themselves have NO INCENTIVE to change.



LOS DOS....THESE + 456120




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