Are T20's like UT, UCLA, USC, BU only good for THEIR market? Forum

[PrayingforHYS]

Hey, I'm hoping to get into the t14 with my 3.9x GPA, but I think my LSAT is going to be mid to high 160s (I'm guessing 166...i muffed RC big time), so who knows what's going to happen. Before I get "Retake. /Thread" as an answer, please just humor me and continue reading (yes, I would plan on retaking, but I suck at RC)

I plan on blanketing the t14, but I'm also looking at a lot of schools in the 15-25 range -- so my question is, are schools outside the t14 ONLY good choices if you're interested in that market?

I mean, if you're from Philadelphia, I understand that a JD from, say, Penn State, Villanova, or Temple is probably only good for the PA/DE/NJ market with connections, but schools like Texas, UCLA, USC, BU, BC -- are these schools at the top of tier 2 really only good enough for their region???

For example, as someone who wants to work in the NY/DC/Boston/Philly markets, if I get, say, a half or full scholarship to Texas, should I even consider that??? We're talking about, roughly, the 15th or 16th ranked law school here, but do they only place well in the southern markets? I mean, I'm sure there are some students that go to UT who go to the east coast, but are they few and far between (not b/c of choice, but b/c of opportunity) and is it THAT big of a disadvantage??

I really like Boston, so I plan on applying to BC and BU regardless, but for schools like UCLA and USC, are you practically accepting work ONLY in the LA market?

UCLA and USC both have good law schools, but if these t20 schools aren't as national as they'd like you to think, then what's the point of even applying there? I guess that's my biggest question....is it worth wasting the application fee on t20s like UCLA and USC if I plan on working on the east coast, and, in general, are the t14 schools the only truly "national" schools in the country??

[dominkay]

schools like Texas, UCLA, USC, BU, BC -- are these schools at the top of tier 2 really only good enough for their region???

Psst, those are first tier schools. Tier 2 begins at 50 (maybe 51? I don't know).

[NewLobo]

Where is vandy?????

[vespertiliovir]

Where is vandy?????

TTTennessee

[PrayingforHYS]

schools like Texas, UCLA, USC, BU, BC -- are these schools at the top of tier 2 really only good enough for their region???

Psst, those are first tier schools. Tier 2 begins at 50 (maybe 51? I don't know).

Well, it depends to whom you're speaking. A lot of people will contend that the 1st tier ends after the t14, and based on how most deans/adcomms/whatever talk about it, I'm inclined to use those rankings.

If the 2nd tier begins at, say, 50, then you're putting the 49th overall school in the same tier as Yale and Harvard et al? That just doesn't make sense...but that's not my issue here

Where is vandy?????

Vandy is another school that I like, as is ND, but the same question applies for each:

If I want to practice on the east coast, am I essentially wasting my time/money by applying to Vandy? It's a hell of a school, but I don't want to work in the south. Vandy is relatively close to DC, but even DC is 4th on my list behind NY, Philly, Boston

I mean, my point is, would a half scholarship to Vandy be better than sticker at ANY t14 if I want to work on the east coast? Moreover, is Vandy sticker better than, say, half-ride at USC if I don't want to work in the LA market?

The whole point of the thread is...are these top of the 2nd tier schools regional schools? I realize that it's not impossible to go from, say, Texas to a NY firm, but are you at a BIG disadvantage trying to do so? Is going to Fordham (ranked 34) going to make you a better candidate to practice in Philly than Texas just b/c Fordham is closer??

[ze2151]

are you willing to make some calls and attempt to network in philly? it sounds like that's your town. it's mine also, and i am considering coming back after l.s. obviously it's going to be easier to stay in the home region. but if you know people from your hometown, i'm sure you can build relationships enough to get a foot in the door. i wouldn't go anywhere that would be unpalatable for you after you graduate, that's for sure.

[philosoraptor]

If the 2nd tier begins at, say, 50, then you're putting the 49th overall school in the same tier as Yale and Harvard et al? That just doesn't make sense...but that's not my issue here

The point of a tier is not to equate the top with the bottom. If you use the T14 as a tier, you're putting (zomg!) Georgetown in the same tier as Yale. Tier 1 is 1-50 in USNWR.

If I want to practice on the east coast, am I essentially wasting my time/money by applying to Vandy? It's a hell of a school, but I don't want to work in the south. Vandy is relatively close to DC, but even DC is 4th on my list behind NY, Philly, Boston

I mean, my point is, would a half scholarship to Vandy be better than sticker at ANY t14 if I want to work on the east coast? Moreover, is Vandy sticker better than, say, half-ride at USC if I don't want to work in the LA market?

The whole point of the thread is...are these top of the 2nd tier schools regional schools? I realize that it's not impossible to go from, say, Texas to a NY firm, but are you at a BIG disadvantage trying to do so? Is going to Fordham (ranked 34) going to make you a better candidate to practice in Philly than Texas just b/c Fordham is closer??

Dude, you're wasting your time asking questions like these. Instead, spend the time applying to more schools. If you get mid-160s, you'll be lucky to get into UT, UCLA, Vandy or USC. They're all great, especially if you can swing a scholarship, and you can go national from any of them if you do well. But the standard advice applies -- e.g., if you're desperate for L.A., take UCLA over Vandy; if you just have to be in NYC, Fordham is a fine choice. Look through any number of topics in the "choosing a school" forum to get a sense of how national each one is.

Also, you won't get money from Texas if you get a 166. 167 is the minimum.

[PrayingforHYS]

are you willing to make some calls and attempt to network in philly? it sounds like that's your town. it's mine also, and i am considering coming back after l.s. obviously it's going to be easier to stay in the home region. but if you know people from your hometown, i'm sure you can build relationships enough to get a foot in the door. i wouldn't go anywhere that would be unpalatable for you after you graduate, that's for sure.

Philly is definitely my top spot, but here's the obvious problem: After Penn, what are your options? Temple and Villanova? I mean, those aren't TERRIBLE schools (especially if you want to stay in Philly), but I know that I can do much better than that. Villanova is notorious for giving NO scholarship money to UGs, so I don't know if that carries over to law school or not, but who's to say that going to, say, BU or BC with a small scholarship puts you in a worse position to practice in Philly than going to Villanova for free? Doesn't the fact that 40 spots separates the schools in the rankings make a difference?

My top, top ambition is to go to a t14 and practice biglaw in NY. If I don't get into a t14 or I do but don't get a NY firm, then Philly is my top choice, but I also really like Boston (gf and her family are from there and I've become acquainted with the city), so that's why I like BC and BU.

Leaving out DC, say I just want to practice in Philly, Boston, or NY -- does that make schools like Fordham and Boston College (ranked 34 and 28, respectively) better fits to practice in one of those 3 areas than UCLA, Texas, or Vandy, despite the fact that those are 10-15 spots higher?? I guess that's my real dilemma: should I even apply to UCLA/USC/Texas/Vandy if I know I want to work on the east coast?

Maybe I'm just having a hard time coming to grips with the notion that a school ranked 15 (say Texas, UCLA, or Vandy) can have WORSE prospects in a certain region than schools ranked in the 30s...

Anybody else have more input? If I'm resigned to practicing in the east coast, should I even bother applying to UCLA, USC, and Texas (assuming no fee waiver)?

[Cupidity]

3.9X GPA + 16X LSAT????



SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE NEEDS TO ED TO UVA!!!

[stratocophic]

3.9X GPA + 16X LSAT????



SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE NEEDS TO ED TO UVA!!!

[PrayingforHYS]

3.9X GPA + 16X LSAT????



SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE NEEDS TO ED TO UVA!!!

really? what do you think my chances would be if I did that? I applied ED to college and was accepted with no scholarships, so I'm kind of on the fence about applying ED again since I think I could get some hefty scholarships from non-t14 schools

I mean, if t14 at sticker is almost always >>> school ranked 20-30 with big scholly, then perhaps

What about an ED at Penn? Philly is my home and desired market, and I'd definitely pay sticker for Penn. Would an ED there make more sense than UVA?

Idk about the whole ED thing -- I really have no idea how my cycle will play out. I found out a month ago that I'm 1/16 native american (it was my biological grandfather's side, but he abandoned my grandmother, so nobody talks about him...that's why I'm just finding out the native american thing now), so I don't know if that would make me a URM, and if it did, I don't know how that would affect my cycle (i.e. maybe a 166-167 for a native american is good enough for t5...i have no idea)

I'm not trying to start a debate on whether it's right to file as a NA or not. The fact is, i AM, by blood, native american, and just finding this out a month ago does not diminish this. I plan on asking different schools about this situation, but if they're blunt enough to admit that it might give me an advantage (however slight), then I'll use it.

So now you I understand why I'd be hesitant to file ED anywhere -- I think my cycle is going to be wildly unpredictable and I don't want to discount the possibility of even getting a half/full ride from a t14 if they list me as a urm...

[kaydish21]

Classic Boalt numbers too.

[PrayingforHYS]

Classic Boalt numbers too.

I agree, and I plan on applying to Boalt, but I think "President of College Republicans" on my extracurricular list might scare them away

[kk19131]

LOL @ your pretending to be Native American...

[dominkay]

3.9X GPA + 16X LSAT????



SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE NEEDS TO ED TO UVA!!!

really? what do you think my chances would be if I did that? I applied ED to college and was accepted with no scholarships, so I'm kind of on the fence about applying ED again since I think I could get some hefty scholarships from non-t14 schools

I mean, if t14 at sticker is almost always >>> school ranked 20-30 with big scholly, then perhaps

What about an ED at Penn? Philly is my home and desired market, and I'd definitely pay sticker for Penn. Would an ED there make more sense than UVA?

Idk about the whole ED thing -- I really have no idea how my cycle will play out. I found out a month ago that I'm 1/16 native american (it was my biological grandfather's side, but he abandoned my grandmother, so nobody talks about him...that's why I'm just finding out the native american thing now), so I don't know if that would make me a URM, and if it did, I don't know how that would affect my cycle (i.e. maybe a 166-167 for a native american is good enough for t5...i have no idea)

I'm not trying to start a debate on whether it's right to file as a NA or not. The fact is, i AM, by blood, native american, and just finding this out a month ago does not diminish this. I plan on asking different schools about this situation, but if they're blunt enough to admit that it might give me an advantage (however slight), then I'll use it.

So now you I understand why I'd be hesitant to file ED anywhere -- I think my cycle is going to be wildly unpredictable and I don't want to discount the possibility of even getting a half/full ride from a t14 if they list me as a urm...

I think you have to be 1/4 Native American and/or have tribal membership. You're not a URM.

[PrayingforHYS]

3.9X GPA + 16X LSAT????



SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE NEEDS TO ED TO UVA!!!

really? what do you think my chances would be if I did that? I applied ED to college and was accepted with no scholarships, so I'm kind of on the fence about applying ED again since I think I could get some hefty scholarships from non-t14 schools

I mean, if t14 at sticker is almost always >>> school ranked 20-30 with big scholly, then perhaps

What about an ED at Penn? Philly is my home and desired market, and I'd definitely pay sticker for Penn. Would an ED there make more sense than UVA?

Idk about the whole ED thing -- I really have no idea how my cycle will play out. I found out a month ago that I'm 1/16 native american (it was my biological grandfather's side, but he abandoned my grandmother, so nobody talks about him...that's why I'm just finding out the native american thing now), so I don't know if that would make me a URM, and if it did, I don't know how that would affect my cycle (i.e. maybe a 166-167 for a native american is good enough for t5...i have no idea)

I'm not trying to start a debate on whether it's right to file as a NA or not. The fact is, i AM, by blood, native american, and just finding this out a month ago does not diminish this. I plan on asking different schools about this situation, but if they're blunt enough to admit that it might give me an advantage (however slight), then I'll use it.

So now you I understand why I'd be hesitant to file ED anywhere -- I think my cycle is going to be wildly unpredictable and I don't want to discount the possibility of even getting a half/full ride from a t14 if they list me as a urm...

I think you have to be 1/4 Native American and/or have tribal membership. You're not a URM.

Well that's what I plan on asking -- if there's a minimum blood level required (like 1/4). I've read about people who are like 1/128 NA getting full rides at ivy league schools UG. I'm sure law school is different, but how much so? It's not like this was 9 generations ago. If I have to check the "white" box, that's fine...it can't hurt to ask, right?

[ze2151]

I'd say if you ED you would have a pretty decent shot @ Penn. I was sort of given the runaround by them... I don't think they thought I was a serious candidate. In fact, they were right. My wife and I wanted to get out of Philly for a while (as you know, there's a strong tendency for Philadelphians to stay and never leave, and we wanted to get a little more range before putting down roots). Maybe I'll pay for the decision to go to Emory down the line... but I got a super scholarship, and I absolutely love the faculty and the town.

If you are confident in your numbers, don't settle for Villanova or Temple (I got my master's from Villanova and I'm not putting it down, it's just not on the same level as others). I don't think you should go to, say, a Texas. But Emory places a lot of people in NY (maybe ITE will change that, but I'm decently connected in the community up there so I think that will be a boon). I say go where you're comfortable and where you'll be most happy. Obviously, if you're willing to pay for it, ED to Penn. Great shot there w/ your GPA and local address.

[witorres89]

3.9X GPA + 16X LSAT????



SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE NEEDS TO ED TO UVA!!!

really? what do you think my chances would be if I did that? I applied ED to college and was accepted with no scholarships, so I'm kind of on the fence about applying ED again since I think I could get some hefty scholarships from non-t14 schools

I mean, if t14 at sticker is almost always >>> school ranked 20-30 with big scholly, then perhaps

What about an ED at Penn? Philly is my home and desired market, and I'd definitely pay sticker for Penn. Would an ED there make more sense than UVA?

Idk about the whole ED thing -- I really have no idea how my cycle will play out. I found out a month ago that I'm 1/16 native american (it was my biological grandfather's side, but he abandoned my grandmother, so nobody talks about him...that's why I'm just finding out the native american thing now), so I don't know if that would make me a URM, and if it did, I don't know how that would affect my cycle (i.e. maybe a 166-167 for a native american is good enough for t5...i have no idea)

I'm not trying to start a debate on whether it's right to file as a NA or not. The fact is, i AM, by blood, native american, and just finding this out a month ago does not diminish this. I plan on asking different schools about this situation, but if they're blunt enough to admit that it might give me an advantage (however slight), then I'll use it.

So now you I understand why I'd be hesitant to file ED anywhere -- I think my cycle is going to be wildly unpredictable and I don't want to discount the possibility of even getting a half/full ride from a t14 if they list me as a urm...

I think you have to be 1/4 Native American and/or have tribal membership. You're not a URM.

Well that's what I plan on asking -- if there's a minimum blood level required (like 1/4). I've read about people who are like 1/128 NA getting full rides at ivy league schools UG. I'm sure law school is different, but how much so? It's not like this was 9 generations ago. If I have to check the "white" box, that's fine...it can't hurt to ask, right?

I think your supposed to write an essay about diversity to go along with urm application not simply check a box. It doesn't matter what percentage your 'blood' is when you have faced adversity and have something to write about. It will be obvious your just trying to get an edge if you have nothing to write

[baconpuffs]

OP, I think we're the same person.

Hope to see you at Penn.

[NewLobo]

Well that's what I plan on asking -- if there's a minimum blood level required (like 1/4). I've read about people who are like 1/128 NA getting full rides at ivy league schools UG.

You do realize, a hugh chunk of the US has 1/128 native american. Find me a source.

[xyzzzzzzzz]

.

[romothesavior]

schools like Texas, UCLA, USC, BU, BC -- are these schools at the top of tier 2 really only good enough for their region???

Psst, those are first tier schools. Tier 2 begins at 50 (maybe 51? I don't know).

Well, it depends to whom you're speaking. A lot of people will contend that the 1st tier ends after the t14, and based on how most deans/adcomms/whatever talk about it, I'm inclined to use those rankings.

If the 2nd tier begins at, say, 50, then you're putting the 49th overall school in the same tier as Yale and Harvard et al? That just doesn't make sense...but that's not my issue here

Using the term "T1" and "T2" in the way you are doing is confusing and unnecessary. TLS already has built strong consensus around certain terms (HYS, CCN, MVP, T10, T13/T14, T20 etc.) Making up your own terms or using terms incorrectly is not TCR.

No one says Tier 1 ends at T14. The tiers refer to US News. Is T14 different than Tier 1? Absolutely. Clearly Yale and American are not in the same class. We all concede that T14 (or T13, depending on who is trolling for what) is a dividing line in a lot of ways. But that doesn't require making up new terminology. Just say non-T14.

HTH

[vespertiliovir]

No one says Tier 1 ends at T14. The tiers refer to US News. Is T14 different than Tier 1? Absolutely. Clearly Yale and American are not in the same class. We all concede that T14 (or T13, depending on who is trolling for what) is a dividing line in a lot of ways. But that doesn't require making up new terminology. Just say non-T14.HTH

I am trolling for American, and I resent that remark.

[im_blue]

I applied ED to college and was accepted with no scholarships, so I'm kind of on the fence about applying ED again since I think I could get some hefty scholarships from non-t14 schools

If you ED anywhere, you should expect to pay sticker. Of course, there are some ED people who get scholarship money, but you shouldn't count on that. Law schools have little incentive to give money to students who have already committed to attend.

What about an ED at Penn? Philly is my home and desired market, and I'd definitely pay sticker for Penn. Would an ED there make more sense than UVA?

If you definitely prefer Penn over UVA, then it would make more sense to ED to Penn. However...

Idk about the whole ED thing -- I really have no idea how my cycle will play out. I found out a month ago that I'm 1/16 native american (it was my biological grandfather's side, but he abandoned my grandmother, so nobody talks about him...that's why I'm just finding out the native american thing now), so I don't know if that would make me a URM, and if it did, I don't know how that would affect my cycle (i.e. maybe a 166-167 for a native american is good enough for t5...i have no idea)

ED wouldn't make sense until you know how your NA status would affect your applications.