Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

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mpasi
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby mpasi » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:10 am

Stanford4Me wrote:Someone answer me this:

How does an 86 year old man have a 17 year old son?
How can a man who starves his country get tickets to the World Cup?
Have you seen where he freaking lives?



1) He's evil. And young muff is readily available to the powerful. See: John Edwards, Bill Clinton.
2) He's evil.
3) He's evil.


Have I left anything out?

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eandy
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby eandy » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:11 am

If you want to understand Africa, you should read The World and a Very Small Place in Africa: A History of Globalization in Niumi, the Gambia

I think it answers a lot of the things in this thread.

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mpasi
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby mpasi » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:14 am

Merr wrote:
mpasi wrote:
Merr wrote:
Those are just two examples...and I am really not discussing the Dutch here.

Look at the numerous Caribbean countries that were essentially British Slave plantations that are now doing very well.

On top of that India and Ghana are also both leaps and bounds ahead Zimbabwe in no small part due to Ghandhi/Nehru and Nkrumah. Botswana and Namibia are also doing better then their neighbor.

Though I do see what you are saying. You believe circumstances and consequences > human agency. I believe human agency makes for favorable circumstances and consequences. Thus why, in large part, countries in the same geographic area with somewhat similar circumstances at decolonization like Malaysia and Burma and Ghana and Sierra Leone have had such different outcomes.



I see what you're saying as well, and agree to some extent. However, you honestly can't think that Haiti (pre-earthquake), Martinique, Aruba, and Jamaica are "doing very well", can you? Have you looked at the GDP numbers for the Caribbean nations? And even if it is favorable, how much of that benefits the sons and daughters of the oppressed? My issue with what you posted earlier is that you don't account for after-effects of colonialism.


One I am not discussing the French. Their form of colonialism was/is a different beast entirely, but even there Human agency holds up as Senegal and Benin are much better off then Niger or Ivory Coast.

As to the Caribbean I have looked at GDP and HDI and have to say The Bahamas, Antigua and Barbuda, Trinidad, and Barbados among others are doing quite well all cases of government policy and human agency. Additionally, in all of these countries the sons and daughters of former slaves and indentured servants make up the vast, vast majority of the population have control at all levels of government and, in general, are the ones reaping the benefits.



You said a lot, but said nothing. Where are the details? I'm not being a smartass here, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. The Turks and Caicos isn't doing too well, and that was a British colony, correct?

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NU_Jet55
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby NU_Jet55 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:15 am

IASS

But it's gonna get worse.
Last edited by NU_Jet55 on Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Grizz
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Grizz » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:15 am

mpasi wrote:
rad law wrote:
mpasi wrote:Where did I say Mugabe was a good leader? I don't think that, but I do think it's stupid to expect any leader to turn that shit around in 30 years.


"Not turning things around" is an understatement of the grossest magnitude w/r/t what is happening in that country.

Again, I forgot how hard it is to not forcibly redistribute land without compensation, stifle democratic processes, decimate the Rhodesian/Zimbabwean economy, and commit massive human rights abuses.




I do believe I answered your Google results with the "I don't think Mugabe is a good leader" remark I posted earlier. It's time to Google more facts about the country, girlfriend.


You are saying that Zimbabwe's situation is related to the aftereffects of British colonialism, and one leader may not make it better. That is what you are saying. I have understood this now for multiple posts.

However, this leader has certainly made it worse. And many of its present problems (inflation, land redistribution, economic mismanagement) can be placed pretty squarely on his head, not the Brits.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby GATORTIM » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:17 am

Image

Yes

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Matteliszt
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Matteliszt » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:18 am

Guys

we need to get back to the root question here

Should he sell his land!?

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eandy
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby eandy » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:19 am

rad law wrote:You are saying that Zimbabwe's situation is related to the aftereffects of British colonialism, and one leader may not make it better. That is what you are saying. I have understood this now for multiple posts.

However, this leader has certainly made it worse. And many of its present problems (inflation, land redistribution, economic mismanagement) can be placed pretty squarely on his head, not the Brits.

Actually, with the exception of land redistribution, most of the problems Zimbabwe has are a result of British rule and/or structural adjustment at the end of the cold war.
There are some good google scholar articles about it, but I am way too lazy to go find them right now.

The debate in this thread really should cease until people read The World and a Very Small Place in Africa. Thanks.
Last edited by eandy on Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Burger in a can
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Burger in a can » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:20 am

Matteliszt wrote:Guys

we need to get back to the root question here

Should he sell his land!?


If you've been following along, you'll notice that he can't actually sell his land after all...

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Grizz
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Grizz » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:20 am

GATORTIM wrote:
Yes


Image




Also, this Brit probably needs to pay reparations for the Zimbabwe. The good news is, he can probably pay with inflated currency.

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Matteliszt
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Matteliszt » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:22 am

Burger in a can wrote:If you've been following along, you'll notice that he can't actually sell his land after all...


Outed on my laziness

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Jack Smirks
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Jack Smirks » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:23 am

You guys just dont get it, Zimbabwe began as a part of the British crown colony of Rhodesia. President Robert Mugabe is the head of State and Commander in Chief of the armed forces. Morgan Tsvangirai is the Prime Minister. Mugabe has been in power since the country's long war for independence. Although initially during the 1980s his administration was credited with improving the standard of living and the economy, his rule has been characterized by gross economic mismanagement, hyperinflation, and reports of human rights abuses...

I can read wikipedia too

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Stanford4Me
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Stanford4Me » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:23 am

Matteliszt wrote:
Burger in a can wrote:If you've been following along, you'll notice that he can't actually sell his land after all...


Outed on my laziness

Wait...I missed this also. Why can't he sell?

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Grizz
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Grizz » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:23 am

eandy wrote:
rad law wrote:You are saying that Zimbabwe's situation is related to the aftereffects of British colonialism, and one leader may not make it better. That is what you are saying. I have understood this now for multiple posts.

However, this leader has certainly made it worse. And many of its present problems (inflation, land redistribution, economic mismanagement) can be placed pretty squarely on his head, not the Brits.

Actually, with the exception of land redistribution, most of the problems Zimbabwe has are a result of British rule and/or structural adjustment at the end of the cold war.
There are some good google scholar articles about it, but I am way too lazy to go find them right now.


I saw an article in the EconomisTTT to the the opposite effect actually. No clue where it is now.

Burger in a can
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Burger in a can » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:25 am

lonerightly wrote:Thought I would update this with the decision I made.

I ended up selling my land as part of an add-on to a larger deal my father put through, appears to be the only way I would have gotten a fair price. A few days before the deal was supposed to close the buyer backed out. When word got out that the property was for sale it was overrun by squatters. I've basically lost all hope of recovering the land, and the keeper is barely able to hold on to the house, but probably not for much longer without risking his life unfortunately. :(


That's why he can't sell.

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Merr
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Merr » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:27 am

mpasi wrote:
Merr wrote:
mpasi wrote:
Merr wrote:
Those are just two examples...and I am really not discussing the Dutch here.

Look at the numerous Caribbean countries that were essentially British Slave plantations that are now doing very well.

On top of that India and Ghana are also both leaps and bounds ahead Zimbabwe in no small part due to Ghandhi/Nehru and Nkrumah. Botswana and Namibia are also doing better then their neighbor.

Though I do see what you are saying. You believe circumstances and consequences > human agency. I believe human agency makes for favorable circumstances and consequences. Thus why, in large part, countries in the same geographic area with somewhat similar circumstances at decolonization like Malaysia and Burma and Ghana and Sierra Leone have had such different outcomes.



I see what you're saying as well, and agree to some extent. However, you honestly can't think that Haiti (pre-earthquake), Martinique, Aruba, and Jamaica are "doing very well", can you? Have you looked at the GDP numbers for the Caribbean nations? And even if it is favorable, how much of that benefits the sons and daughters of the oppressed? My issue with what you posted earlier is that you don't account for after-effects of colonialism.


One I am not discussing the French. Their form of colonialism was/is a different beast entirely, but even there Human agency holds up as Senegal and Benin are much better off then Niger or Ivory Coast.

As to the Caribbean I have looked at GDP and HDI and have to say The Bahamas, Antigua and Barbuda, Trinidad, and Barbados among others are doing quite well all cases of government policy and human agency. Additionally, in all of these countries the sons and daughters of former slaves and indentured servants make up the vast, vast majority of the population have control at all levels of government and, in general, are the ones reaping the benefits.



You said a lot, but said nothing. Where are the details? I'm not being a smartass here, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. The Turks and Caicos isn't doing too well, and that was a British colony, correct?


What I am saying is simply that human agency in the form of good government with pragmatic, public mind leaders (Not necessarily, but usually, democracies) creates "miracles" to change countries despite centuries of previous colonialism in a relatively short period of time. In other words its been a good 30+ years since independence for most of the world. With that said there should be no excuse for countries to seriously blame all their ills on outside imposed circumstance.
Last edited by Merr on Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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eandy
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby eandy » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:29 am

rad law wrote:
eandy wrote:
rad law wrote:You are saying that Zimbabwe's situation is related to the aftereffects of British colonialism, and one leader may not make it better. That is what you are saying. I have understood this now for multiple posts.

However, this leader has certainly made it worse. And many of its present problems (inflation, land redistribution, economic mismanagement) can be placed pretty squarely on his head, not the Brits.

Actually, with the exception of land redistribution, most of the problems Zimbabwe has are a result of British rule and/or structural adjustment at the end of the cold war.
There are some good google scholar articles about it, but I am way too lazy to go find them right now.


I saw an article in the EconomisTTT to the the opposite effect actually. No clue where it is now.

Was it recent? I have a subscription, so I'll have to search for it online.

I think that while Mugabe rightfully gets a lot of blame, it is a very tough job because of the structural adjustment and its requirements. Africa got super fucked over at the end of the Cold War.

My professor did his Fulbright(I think) in Zimbabwe so we talked about it a lot. If I recall correctly, there was something unique about Zimbabwe's economic development in the 1980s, but I can't remember what it is. BTW, thanks; I am now going to spend the next 2 days trying to figure it out :lol:

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Grizz
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Grizz » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:29 am

Merr wrote:What I am saying is simply that human agency in the form of good government with pragmatic, public mind leaders (Not necessarily, but usually, democracies) create seemingly magical wonders to change countries despite centuries of previous colonialism in a relatively short period of time. In other words its been a good 30+ years since independence for most of the world. It is about time countries stop seriously blaming their all their ills on outside imposed circumstance whitey.


FTFY

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Grizz
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Grizz » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:30 am

eandy wrote:Was it recent? I have a subscription, so I'll have to search for it online.

I think that while Mugabe rightfully gets a lot of blame, it is a very tough job because of the structural adjustment and its requirements. Africa got super fucked over at the end of the Cold War.

My professor did his Fulbright(I think) in Zimbabwe so we talked about it a lot. If I recall correctly, there was something unique about Zimbabwe's economic development in the 1980s, but I can't remember what it is. BTW, thanks; I am now going to spend the next 2 days trying to figure it out :lol:


Sorry, no clue! I just remember the gist of the article. It may have been quite old.

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Matteliszt
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Matteliszt » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:31 am

Whoa another dude going to UNC

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Merr
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Merr » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:35 am

Matteliszt wrote:Whoa another dude going to UNC


Yup

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Jack Smirks
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Jack Smirks » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:38 am

Merr wrote:
What I am saying is simply that human agency in the form of good government with pragmatic, public mind leaders (Not necessarily, but usually, democracies) creates "miracles" to change countries despite centuries of previous colonialism in a relatively short period of time. In other words its been a good 30+ years since independence for most of the world. With that said there should be no excuse for countries to seriously blame all their ills on outside imposed circumstance.

+1

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Jack Smirks
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Jack Smirks » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:40 am

naterj wrote:
Merr wrote:
What I am saying is simply that human agency in the form of good government with pragmatic, public mind leaders (Not necessarily, but usually, democracies) creates "miracles" to change countries despite centuries of previous colonialism in a relatively short period of time. In other words its been a good 30+ years since independence for most of the world. With that said there should be no excuse for countries to seriously blame all their ills on outside imposed circumstance.

+1

I should add that I don't understand your "miracle" comment comes from but I believe we are on the same page as to the essence of the argument.

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Merr
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby Merr » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:47 am

naterj wrote:
naterj wrote:
Merr wrote:
What I am saying is simply that human agency in the form of good government with pragmatic, public mind leaders (Not necessarily, but usually, democracies) creates "miracles" to change countries despite centuries of previous colonialism in a relatively short period of time. In other words its been a good 30+ years since independence for most of the world. With that said there should be no excuse for countries to seriously blame all their ills on outside imposed circumstance.

+1

I should add that I don't understand your "miracle" comment comes from but I believe we are on the same page as to the essence of the argument.


"Miracle" is a term that has been used to describe certain countries unexpected, rapid economic growth. i.e. the West German "miracle," the Taiwan "miracle," the "Miracle on the Han River" (S. Korea) etc. There was even one happening in the Ivory coast until the Boiney government messed it up.

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NU_Jet55
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Re: Would you sell your family's legacy for law school?

Postby NU_Jet55 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:08 am

Yes.




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